[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Walin he/him]

Dude, this thread is an upvote engine. At least, for genius theorizers like SLNC and PhineasGage.

Okay, I'll say my piece: I think that Kaladin is good for Shallan. He's attractive to her, and the fans ship them a lot. A lot. However, Adolin is much better for her. He tries to put her before himself, and has tried to help her realize that one personality is enough. At the end of Oathbringer, he seems to treat her multiple personalities as distinct people, which is kind of anti-whole. So, neither of them are super healthy, but Adolin's better. As much as I regret to say it.

[Lady Stormlight]

I just finished reading OB a couple of hours ago and came here to see what others thought.  I'm heartened to see that so many others were unsatisfied with things were handled.  Maybe not so much the way they worked out as much as the way it was presented and rationalized.  First, two items of self-disclosure:

1. Shallan has never been, and still isn't, a favorite of mine.

2.  Kaladin (and all of B4,really) has my heart; he's my absolute favorite.

Prior to this book I shipped Kalladin, mostly because Kal liked her and so I wanted her for him if that was what he wanted.  Now I have to agree with whomever said it upthread that now I feel like Kal dodged a bulllet.  I spent most of this book looking at Shallan and thinking, "Girl, you are crazy."  There are some serious issues brewing with her and Kalidan certainly doesn't need to be saddled with that.  The boy carries the weight of the world on his shoulders as it is.  But the same holds true for Shallan.  She's so messed up that she needs someone uncomplicated and easy or, as Veil described Adolin, "nice but bland."  Veil also referred to Adolin as "expected" and "obvious".  He's the safe choice, the one who won't ever really challenge Shallan on anything.  It rather reminds me of what Navani told Dalinar about why she originally chose Gavilar, the more outgoing and personable brother.  Because Dalinar's intensity scared her.  I think Navani probably was a heck of a lot more mentally and emotionally stable than Shallan but the same motivations seem to be driving Shallan's decision.  Because her assertion that Adolin knows her is just so patently ridiculous considering all the secrets Shallan still keeps from Adolin.  He still has no clue about the traumas that shaped her.  Their whole relationship feels like puppy love, superficial and immature and because of this AND Shallan's dissociative personality disorder thing she'sgot going on... she has no business marrying anyone yet.

Unlike others, though, I'm not expecting BS to touch on the romances anymore.  I think Shallan and Adolin will stay married and it will magically work out.  BS is a great writer but that doesn't mean that he writes everything equally well.  When it comes to world building and creating interesting characters he's at the top of the game. But I've never thought he writes romantic relationships very well.  I suspect he knows it too and this is why he keeps defaulting to the same formula over and over again.  Someone else pointed it out already: naive, young, virginal woman meets nobleman with a heart of gold - and even thought he's the first real relationship of her life, it's love!  It's neat and simple so he goes with it.  I've read the thoughts on BS maybe foreshadowing  things but while I hope those theories are right,I'm not holding my breath.  Going into this book I was really looking forward the fallout from Shallan discovering that Kaladin killed her brother, from an alive Jasnah returning to her family, and the consequences of Adolin killing Sadeas (was really thinking that Adolin would finally get a meaty storyline)...but all three plot threads fizzled out.  Heck, Jasnah's reunion with her family- her mother!! - happened 100% off the page.  Part of this is because as the story gets bigger in scope and POVs (I think this book had the most so far) but the page count stays relatively stable, some things will necessarily fall by the wayside.  I think the romance was settled in this book, clumsy and unsatisfying as it is, and that's just where it's going to stay.

 

[deddinty]

I agree that i don't think the love triangle is 100% over, as much as I wish it was. I actually like the outcome, just not how it happened, or how open the ending left it. I personally had no preference after WoR, and just wanted the characters to be happy whichever way it went.

My personal take on it is that the development will be mostly on the Shallan/Adolin side for a while, with them finally losing their honeymoon phase leading to problems. Whether they end up working it out or splitting up could go either way right now. If they do split, I really can't see her jumping back into romance with Kaladin right away. I've always been of the opinion that Shallan is such a mess, and she's absolutely not mature enough to deal with marriage. Her DID just makes it worse. If problems arise, I think it will be on Shallan's side of things. 

I just really, really want Kaladin to stay out of it, and be a neutral friend for both of them after this.   Brandon's romance writing has always been the weakest aspect of his stories, and Kal going full Dalinar after Shallan would be the absolute worst way to continue the love triangle. Thankfully, Kal seems to be more mature in this aspect, and I can't imagine the Kaladin we see in OB going that route. 

If Kaladin and Shallan ever do end up together, I hope it's late back five after a lot of changing and growing happens. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by deddinty
Autocorrect doesn't like Shallan

[Guest]

@Greywatch

I agree with one side of your argument and disagree with the other side.

Lets keep Kaladin out of it for now, since I think he isn't really important for this.

I agree, that Adolin is committing himself. I think, he even is in love with Shallan. In fact, I think, that he is committing himself so much, that he is neglecting himself.

I don't agree, that Shallan is doing the same thing. In fact, I think, during Oathbringer, she is strangely distant from him. I honestly can't remember one instance where Shallan approached Adolin. I can't remember the last time, that Shallan asked Adolin about his feelings. She approached him once or twice in Part 1 and that was all just "You're not telling me something about that murder." I can't remember the last time Shallan sacrificed anything to make Adolin happier. Adolin is constantly doing all of that, but a healthy relationship needs both sides to engage in that. Shallan has a lot of passion for him, sure. But is it love? I think not.

On another note, @mariapapadia has it right. When you have a mental illness, you can't solely rely on your partner. I have been debating on typing this out for a few days now, but maria's comment finally convinced me, that I have to do it to convey my point in a proper manner, since I think that it is a situation, that, luckily, not many of us have been in. This will be very personal and maybe even a bit heavy, but I feel like I have to say it. Anyway, you've been warned and read on your own risk.

Spoiler

Now, I don't have experience with a mentally ill girlfriend, but I have with a mentally-ill loved one. My father. My father and I are close. My father has suffered from severe depression, due to unemployment, and developed alcoholism from it. It shattered our family. Completely. My mother and my father basically were constantly fighting, but my father held on. He kept functioning, he kept telling himself, that it will all work out. He kept going to work, after he found a new job, and got drunk afterwards. I knew something was wrong, but when you're young, you think your dad, a dad, who showed me true love and affection, is invincible. So, I didn't say anything. I was about fifteen by when I realized that this can't keep going on, but there was this other thing. The second loved one. My 10-year-younger sister, who I felt really protective of. I didn't want our family to fall apart. For her sake. She deserved a happy childhood, that is what I constantly kept telling myself to keep going. So, I kept shoveling everything onto myself. Every fight my parents had, every day I spent with my sister to keep her away from all of that. I neglected myself. I stopped going to school, forgot about my future. I was solely focused on keeping all of this together. Of course, the Jugendamt (german child protection agency) got wind of it and tried to ship me off to a residential school. I tried. Didn't work. I kept running away, because out of fear for my sister, but also because of my dad. I let him do his stuff, but I felt like I needed to be there in case he tried to do something to himself. Yes, that was a genuine fear of mine back then and not unfounded as later made clear.

So, all of this kept going for a year, until one day my mother completely flipped out and began to get violent at me. (For the record, that was a one time thing and she profoundly apologized for it. My mother is not a bad person, but she doesn't take emotional strain well. She is now doing a wonderful job in raising my sister.) We had our fights, but she never hit me. It was then, that I broke and realized, that I was completely out of my depth with this and that there is nothing to rescue in this family. I called the Jugendamt by myself, told them that they could get me. I needed to get out. I was put into an youth residential group and began to rehabilitate. Went back to school. My parents, finally, broke up and my mother moved out. Everything looked like it was getting better. Then my father called me, completely high on diazepam, and told me, that he has started a therapy for his depression and alcoholism. I later learned, that he had planned to kill himself with a paracetamol overdose, luckily he didn't. I supported him in every step. He is now a sober alcoholic and not depressed anymore. But I'm positive, that he wouldn't have made it without the help from the therapy. I only could give him support, but not the help. I needed to realise that.

Anyway, my point is, that I have been there where Adolin is right now. I tried to shovel everything onto myself, saying that I could handle it. I neglected myself, like Adolin is doing. Completely devoted myself to this one thing, this one loved thing. And I still didn't make it. Shallan needs not only support, but help. Wit tried, but I feel like, that he didn't completely get through to her. Help and support are not the same. I needed to realize it myself at first. If this relationship somehow magically resolves all mental issues of Shallan, I would be very disappointed, because that is not how it works. Love is blind. I hope Adolin will soon get that.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Lady Stormlight]

23 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

Adolin is just so basic though. Sigh

He really is, isn't he?  He's a nice guy, good brother and son but that's basically it.  He's had zero character development after over 3,000 pages; he basically the same character he was at the start.  That's not a bad thing but it doesn't make for a very interesting character to me. 

And there's going to be a Szeth POV book?  Ugh.  I'm so not interested in that. 

[Phalanx]

I'm really torn on how I expect this to go (not how I want it to go - how I *expect* it to go). Multiple people have brought up very good points.

I think from a narrative point of view, it really can't be "finished." As many others have brought up, Shallan clearly hasn't sorted out her issues, and in fact they got worse throughout the entire book. It wouldn't make sense for her to have somehow stabilized and suddenly be ok with all the rust she's been through, the extreme multiple personalities, etc. over the space of about 20 pages. It just can't happen in a well-written story because to do that she wouldn't be acting like the "human" she is.

However, the other side of this is Sanderson himself. As a Mormon, he doesn't treat marriage lightly. While I could see almost any other writer using the marriage as a plot device to cause discord in Shallan's psyche (like Kal and Moash's Elkohar plot), it would be very very uncharacteristic for BS. He's also used this arranged marriage plot and female lead + handsome prince plot several times before and played it out without it backfiring.

 

 

All in all, even if it's the greatest ruse of all time, I'll still think it shouldn't have happened this way. And if it does turn out to be all fine and dandy with Shallan+Adolin and she magically gets better because he's "nice," then this series has lost me as a fan. Because I just can't buy that as good writing given all the buildup that came before it. Ditching the ultimate slow burn for a shotgun wedding with a side character just makes no sense to me. And a ruse would feel like we got baited for a cheap "gotcha" moment.

[PhineasGage]

First off, I am really starting to love waking up and finding all the interesting insights that appear overnight! A big thank-you to everyone who has posted on this thread - To be clear, even if I disagree with your interpretation, I do value it because it helps me see alternative ideas and consolidate my own feelings. 

Right, to comments

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Now she is in a fractured condition without realizing it, disconnected from her key character traits and feelings (including any feelings she has for Kaladin), lacks social experience (arguably even for her age, considering her messed-up family), she is understandably stressed and in desperate need for safety. She is already engaged to Adolin and expected to marry him - which puts on her some pressure, let's not pretend it doesn't - and, how luckily, he's a really good guy and they genuinely like each other, which is probably more than she could expect in a society where arranged marriages are normal. 

Now, who in her situation and state of mind would genuinely do something different, hands up, please. 

I totally agree - I suppose it is not fair to say she is taking the "easy" way out, but I do think she is choosing the "safer path". As long as she continues to travel along the path it is still part of the journey. Indeed, we all go chasing after dead-ends sometimes. And Even if they do go nowhere, it can be so much fun

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

This might require bending his comfort zone some more, but we've seen him done it, so I would anticipate it from the major romantic subplot in his grandest series

I agree to an extent - I am not sure he would instinctively feel too bad about bending - but of course, we know he wants this to be his major life's work. One that will have people talking about the books long after his death. Any artist pretty much needs to confront difficult issues in order for their art to remain relevant. If a book is too safe, then it won't draw new readers.

6 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Has ANYONE in the Kholn camp thought anything but "good riddance" when they heard the news? He has issues because he broke the codes but not about what he did being a bad thing. It's not like he would kill just anyone like that.

I don't know..... The fact that Adolin snapped like that really worries me. If you had asked me during tWoK or WoR (before the end obviously) who was the most likely to commit a murder, Adolin would have been last on my list. I would have guessed Shallan most likely unless it had been suggested that the murder happened in anger. I might have suggested Kaladin in that case, but have been less sure of the idea because he had already broken Syl and then resurrected her. He isn't about to go and d something silly to her again.

I also think people read too much into the idea that people not being sad about Sadeas' death makes it ok. It isn't. Charles Manson dies a couple of days ago, and no doubt most people feel a vague kind of "good riddance" in response to that (with good reason I might add) but if he had been killed by someone in a fit of anger then just because he was a monster it does not excuse the act of murder. Bear in mind that it is likely that even amongst Dalinar's own team there are likely people who wonder if he had Sadeas assassinated. That hardly benefits the goal of a man who is trying to bring people togther, and I haven't even touched on how Sadeas' death resulted in Amaram bonding with Yelig-Nar. 

6 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

feeling a little like a childlike Syl when Kaladin starts breaking his Oaths- still trust BS but bond is a little bruised right now.

Yes, that is how I felt too - although @wannabeninja's post below yours made me feel hugely better.

6 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't want to sound harsh, but I don't understand how this is healthy, RL or not. I've seen others being ok with it because of this reason and I really don't get it. It's about the message that is sent. I don't think in any kind of circumstances(books, fantasy, real life, vitual life whatever kind of life)  reinforcing the idea of healing through a romantic relationship is a good thing. It's also unfair to the other person to use them as a fixer. There is a difference in having a support in a partner and putting it all on him/her, which I feel Shallan does in this instance. 

I very much agree with this as my poor SO has to put up with me being a right pain in the neck sometimes! It isn't fair to expect your SO to pick you up when you fall, it is ok for them to put a hand out to help you stand up on your own. It feels like Shallan wants Adolin to carry her, rather than walk by her side.

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It occurs to me that it feels like there's a thematic similarity between Kaladin's 3 main moods and having/holding/using Stormlight.

Yes I completely agree. I have long felt that Kaladin is almost personification of Roshar - he is so often referred to as hard or stony, has periods of darkness (it gets dark during the storms) but is capable of bringing light to others (also like the storms). The wind is a huge element in Roshar, more so than any other and it is also a huge thing in Kaladin's life as well as both he and others identify him. 

5 hours ago, Nef said:

That said, I wouldn't call that Shallan persona an illusion as it implies it's fake, which I disagree with. My opinion is that that persona is actually her anchor persona that she has to somehow consolidate her other personas into. I think the more she represses the Shallan personality (which she does because she hates herself) the more erratic her personality shifts become

Having now spent many hours looking though my textbooks and online resources (as a med student) I must say I disagree. The fundamental pount of DID is that there is  not an anchor personality per se. There is a "prime" which is the personality that identifies as the original person, but to suggest they are the "main" is false. We are each all of our personalities - including the bits we pretend we don't have. Shallan + Veil + Radiant is the personality (plus any others we haven't seen because they are not communicating with the others), because Shallan, Veil and Radiant each lack certain key features of the full personality, not one is any more "real" than the others. A bit like Adonalsium, the Intents make more sense when they are together because they give context to each intent. Shallan, as a whole person will be slightly different to each one of her identities because they will subtly alter the way her traits interact.

5 hours ago, Nef said:

I don't think Kaladin would have delicacy or patience to be a good help to Shallan. When Kaladin sees a problem he tends to want it fixed instantly and can tend to take a figurative hammer to the situation

I very much disagree. Please look at the scene in part 2 (Rock PoV chapter 37) where Kaladin is trying to help Hobber draw Stormlight. Rock's assessment of Kaladin shows how that the men of Bridge 4 see how Kaladin and it includes "an astonishing tenderness in this man". No-one knows Kaladin better than Bridge 4.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

After this thread i had to reread WOR to see what so many seemed to have seen between Shallan and Kal that i missed beyond her admitting she killed her father to him. She comes out of the chasm and immediately turns to Adolin for support

Uh oh - er challenge accepted? I wrote about 30 pages as part of an essay (for myself because I'm weird) discussing this - just using WoR data. If you would like some details I will very happily discuss them -although perhaps in a PM rather than here - I don't want to take the thread on a complete tangent - if you are genuinely interested, feel free to PM me.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Especially at the point she was back then, Shallan was approaching her nadir - whereas Kaladin was on his way up. Shallan's ability to smile isn't evidence of her healing, but her denying reality.

I disagree - Shallan was in a relatively good place (for Shallan) in the chasms. Kaladin has literally just killed Syl. It doesnt get much lower. He doesn't rise again until much later. To me, Shallan is much healthier at this point than she is by the end of OB. She has accepted the death of her father much more easily than that of her mother - she can push things aside, but, crucially, she can also bring it out again to examine her feelings and start resolving them. She is not doing this in OB. The ability to admit to another person the fact that she killed Lin is a huge deal. It means she has accepted it into herself, despite the pain it brings.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

She was mad attracted to him, but never in a way where she really cared what he thought of her. She never tried to imagine what he went through, or how he thought about things, and in almost all of their interactions, she condescends to him - even if it's in a funny way. One moment of connection in the chasm doesn't undo that for me.

Um, firstly, it is clear that Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other - one example (of many) is that they both take major leaps at almost identical times - eg the way they both grow on confidence on the same night when Shallan breaks into Amaram's manor and Kaladin flies out of the chasms. Storms, they both even think about killing him! I also don't think she has to imagine what he went though. He told her his whole story (except for killing Helaran - and that was actually something he missed by mistake) during the hihstorm when they were in the chasms.Most importantly, she is much more patronising to Adolin - I particularly draw your attention to the line "That was an insult, dear" that she says only a few pages before she falls int the chasm.

To me, the chasm scene reflects more than just a relationship betwen these two. The chasms represent failure and redemption - both of these characters have fallen exceedingly badly - indeed both have killed (or mostly killed) their spren, but despite this, they have worked through the challenge of falling so far, and successfully found their way out. Of all of the KR we know, no other characters break as badly as these two have because no-one else has killed then resurrected their spren as far as we know.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

To Kaladin, she always tried to present herself as whole and complete, and beyond the myriad other issues I have with this ship, her inability to be actually vulnerable with Kaladin is a point I can't get past

I disagree here too - one of the reasons she doesnt want Adolin to see Veil is because she doesn't want to apparear vulnerable to him. She has already exposed her vulnerability to Kaladin - it is why he is so amazed she is still functional. Adolin, on the other hand, allows her to be weak by enabling her dissociation. But isn't she supposed to put "Stength before weakness". I don't blame her - weakness is easier - it is easier to say "I can't do it" than to say "Even if I can't I have to try". Most importantly, of your statement, I don't think she tries to appear whole and complete to Kaladin, I think he sees her that way anyway.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Whereas with Adolin, on the surface they seem more shallow, but she is really occupied with their relationship and actually making that work. No matter how deep or shallow anyone thinks their relationship is, her intention to work on her relationship with Adolin and make real sacrifices is what makes a relationship work for real.

True - but you shouldnt have to "work" at a relationship when you are still in the honeymoon phase. Storms, after nearly 7 years with my SO it still hardly ever feels like work. Sacrifice only seems bad when you don't want to do it. When you love someone, you put them first and it doesn't have to be hard to do so. Also, bear in mind that she thinks about her relationship with Adolin very clinically. Now there is nothing wrong with that inherently, but it does undermine the whole 'I am sooooo in love" business. 

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

The entire thing was Shallan being afraid to even let Adolin know that Veil existed, and even though this is a version of Shallan so distant he doesn't see her the same person as his fiancée/wife... Not only is Adolin completely unperturbed by Veil's existence, but he finds a way to share his life with this facet of Shallan, instead of Veil being an outsider to their relationship. That was the nail in the coffin for me to realize that they really were serious about each other. 

Um, if she has DID, Veil and Shallan are one person, not two. He is married to one woman. She has one personality. Shallan + Veil + Radiant. Just because she identifies them as three distinct people doesn't mean she is right. She is one person with multiple issues, not multiple personalities.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

All three of these kids have a ton of chemistry with each other, but romantic relationships aren't about that One Moment of connection or rosy feelings of exhilaration - but choosing to be with another person even if there are other options

Yes but thats why her feelings about Adolin are a problem - she chooses to feel "silly" and "giddy" - single brief moments rather than choosing attachment. Now I do not think she s more attached to Kaladin than Adolin. She hasn't known him long enough either. It is not the best basis for a marriage. Its a stage everyone goes through, but marriage is based on so much more.

@wannabeninja I just want to especially thank you for your post - it made me feel so much better because it showed light and hope in a way I hadn't been able to see well before hand. Props to you

1 hour ago, wannabeninja said:

With Kaladin, if Kaladin were to ever “freeze” he would be there to help pull him out of it however, when it comes to dealing with Kaladin’s anxiety and and depressive episodes he is either is oblivious or probably doesn’t know what to do. With Shallan we already know that Shallan is using him as essentially a mental haven whenever uncomfortable thoughts or her DID are starting to overwhelm her however, although he tries to talk to her about this issue she always just brushing it off.

 I agree - Adolin is very good for both of them, and like so many things, Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other in this.

1 hour ago, wannabeninja said:

Lastly, maybe it’s just me but everybody seems to think the Shalladin story seems to be just some side plot attached to the overall story arcs of Kaladin and Shallan

I kind of feel it is a side plot, but is a major one if that makes sense. I personally think that whilst relationships are obviously important parts of a person's life, those relationships don't have to be with particular people in order for a person to flourish. Essentially, I don't believe in fate/the"one" (other than Neo of course) or destiny. For example, Kaladin doesn't need Shallan to grow, and she doesn't need him either. That isn't to say that their relationship isnt going to end up as a major point of the books (whether romantic or not) it is just that it doesnt have to. I feel that both of the characters would grow even if their counterpart wasn't around.

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Lastly is that Adolin focuses a lot on Shallan enough to let Shallan relax and not have to have a persona with him. I do not think Kaladin was able to past the fronts she put on and in all of his POV, we see him just accepting whatever Shallan is putting forward. I see no textual evidence to support the idea that Kaladin knows her better than Adolin does.

(Emphasis mine) Wow, you and I have completely different reads on this. I think Kaladin doesn't see the fronts because he sees one person. I think Adolin can see them because he has a picture of who Shallan is in his mind (which is her fault in fairness as she plays a role for him) and when she doesn't quite act according to expectations he sees it as being a result of the split. 

Regarding the bit I highlighted; I do think there are reasonable examples, but even if I did not it still wouldn't mean that Adolin knows her better either.

This is, in essence, the core of my argument. Whether or not you believe Adolin or Kaladin is better comes down to personal preference and both are perfectly valid options. The issue is that Shallan chooses one over the other despite not knowing either of them nearly well enough to actually make an informed choice. Now, she goes with her gut on many things so she might well turn out to be right - but that just makes her lucky. Many people who rush into marriage end up regretting it.

1 hour ago, Walin said:

Dude, this thread is an upvote engine. At least, for genius theorizers like SLNC and PhineasGage.

Wow -thank you @Walin - I actually consider myself to simply be a person who has too much time on their hands! And anyway, I certainly would't have started on this thread the way I had if @SLNC hadn't raised some marvellous points I couldn't ignore.

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't agree, that Shallan is doing the same thing. In fact, I think, during Oathbringer, she is strangely distant from him. I honestly can't remember one instance where Shallan approached Adolin. I can't remember the last time, that Shallan asked Adolin about his feelings. She approached him once or twice in Part 1 and that was all just "You're not telling me something about that murder." I can't remember the last time Shallan sacrificed anything to make Adolin happier. Adolin is constantly doing all of that, but a healthy relationship needs both sides to engage in that. Shallan has a lot of passion for him, sure. But is it love? I think not.

I agree - To be fair, she doesnt approach Kaladin either (from memory) but then you and I both have agreed that frankly she needs to get some "me time" and sort her mental state out before she considers a relationship - well its too late for that but we at least agree by choosing at all she's made her life harder. 

38 minutes ago, Lady Stormlight said:

And there's going to be a Szeth POV book?  Ugh.  I'm so not interested in that. 

Really? I am. It will be great to learn about Shinovar - it seems so different from the rest of Roshar. Also, it is implied that the Shin know a bit more about the Heralds/Oathpact etc even if they have got quite a bit of it wrong. I mean, of all the races we know, only the Shin had people watch for the return of the voidbringers. Did they know a desolation was still a potential? Also, BS is really good at worldbuilding and it will be a relief to move away from thinking about the romantic arcs for a while!

[DeployParachute]

@SLNC

I know that must have taken a lot to work up the courage to share such a personal story with us.I am grateful that you trusted us enough to put yourself out there and open up. 

I've always thought that this community is one of the best ones to be found online, and I hope it goes without saying that there are many here, myself included, who would be more than willing to lend an ear should your ever need it.

Spoiler

My mother and my sister have both suffered from serious substance abuse on and off over the past 15 years. And my wife lost her mother to alcoholism, and her first serious boyfriend to a drug overdose.  I think I've learned from these experiences that one of the best things that one can do is learn to share your pain with others when you feel the weight of it becoming overpowering. I hope you have a group of people close to you who can help you with some of those burdens.

 

[Guest]

@DeployParachute

This has been 8 years ago now and everything went as well as it could have.

I very much appreciate the offer, but this is one of those things, where after experiencing catharsis, it acts as a well of strength. It gives you a perspective of what you can actually all bounce back from.

Edit: Oh, and I absolutely agree, that this here is one of the nicest and most varied communities online. I'm really glad that I found it.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

18 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I very much appreciate the offer, but this is one of those things, where after experiencing catharsis, it acts as a well of strength. It gives you a perspective of what you can actually all bounce back from.

Firstly, I'd like to echo @DeployParachute's thoughts that it was very courageous of you to talk about your personal situation. 

Secondly, I think that your comment about having a well of strength is an amazingly profound way of looking at it - you are essentially living the first ideal which is something most of us probably aren't doing - or at least, I don't think I am. It also is obviously giving you a great deal of empathy when thinking about how others are feeling which is a second strength that has come out of what seems to have been a truly terrible period of your life. 

@DeployParachute - I'd also like to say that you are also very brave for taking about your experience. I also think that your point regarding sharing burdens is extremely important for people to understand. It takes courage to share burdens but once you've opened yourself up, carrying those burdens is a great deal easier. In some cases, you might even be able to put some of them down

As a side note, I think, no matter our perspective on the books, it is testament to the strength of Sanderson's character writing that he can write personalities that we can empathise with so well, no matter our own personal experiences. Some of us may have greater insight as to character situations, but the mark of a great writer is being able to make you feel like a character is believable, even if the author themselves hasn't lived the experience.

[Nef]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Having now spent many hours looking though my textbooks and online resources (as a med student) I must say I disagree. The fundamental pount of DID is that there is  not an anchor personality per se. There is a "prime" which is the personality that identifies as the original person, but to suggest they are the "main" is false. We are each all of our personalities - including the bits we pretend we don't have

It seems to me like you're disagreeing with the implied semantics of the my usage of the words "anchor" and "main", but if anything your insight on a prime personality more or less backs up the essence of my stated opinion. Basically repeating myself, but Shallan was/is in danger of losing her Shallan personality and whether its a symptom or the cause of her increasingly erratic fragmentation I think it's important that that personality is supported (by Adolin) notwithstanding arbitrary arguments about whether one personality is more important than another, which I admittedly imply.

Anyway I'm completely unlearned on the subject so I can only go off my feelings after reading the book. I really do appreciate the insight you've brought on the matter.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I very much disagree. Please look at the scene in part 2 (Rock PoV chapter 37) where Kaladin is trying to help Hobber draw Stormlight. Rock's assessment of Kaladin shows how that the men of Bridge 4 see how Kaladin and it includes "an astonishing tenderness in this man". No-one knows Kaladin better than Bridge 4.

I regret my wording, but I definitely don't think Kaladin is insensitive; he's too sensitive for Shallan if anything. I elaborated on my opinion in a later post but essentially I think Adolin is better equipped than Kaladin in a relatioship with Shallan at this stage.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Nef

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Nef said:

I elaborated on my opinion in a later post but essentially I think Adolin is better equipped than Kaladin in a relatioship with Shallan at this stage.

To support her? Maybe. But support only works in conjunction with help. She needs to be challenged in her ways of thinking, but also encouraged. Encouragement Adolin can provide. Help? No. I don't think so. Maybe Wit could be that help, but I have a feeling, that Shallan doesn't want to be challenged on this. With her convincing herself, that everything will be alright and so and so. Giving comfort is great, but it doesn't tackle the underlying issues. Of which Shallan has many. Romantic attachment to your confidant in that case makes it even harder to tackle those, but, for the record, I don't think Kaladin is perfectly equipped for that either atm. Shallan should have taken some alone time, but Adolin just had to force a decision out of her.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[ScavellTane]

The way I see it is that the problem with all this ' shipping' is because the story has over 20 years to go. If we were not told that there was another 5 books this discussion would be winding down.

[PhineasGage]

 

24 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The way I see it is that the problem with all this ' shipping' is because the story has over 20 years to go. If we were not told that there was another 5 books this discussion would be winding down.

That is true of any subject we are discussing on the forum. There is a great deal of information we don't have on almost every subject in Roshar. In a way, shipping is the easiest because we all understand human relationships, we don't really understand the underlying Rosharan history or magic systems.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Walin said:

Okay, I'll say my piece: I think that Kaladin is good for Shallan. He's attractive to her, and the fans ship them a lot. A lot. However, Adolin is much better for her. He tries to put her before himself, and has tried to help her realize that one personality is enough. At the end of Oathbringer, he seems to treat her multiple personalities as distinct people, which is kind of anti-whole. So, neither of them are super healthy, but Adolin's better. As much as I regret to say it.

I get what you mean, but that is exactly the thing, that it isn't. I'll agree that in the short-term Adolin stabilized her, but what Shallan needs to realize is, that she is Shallan + Veil + Radiant and not just Shallan out of the trio... Humans aren't just one personality, we are facets of many, which form this one personality, what Shallan did was trying to abstract her own personality into these fragments, but lost control over them. The ultimate goal must be, that she reintegrates them. The way I see it, Adolin telling her that he prefers what is left of Shallan will bring her to distinct herself further from them. Especially, because Veil had some pretty heavy verdicts of Adolin -> "nice, but bland", "expected", "obvious".

I think, that her committing to any romantic relationship atm wasn't the correct move. It will complicate things, but, of course, I'm also sceptical of her own committment. Adolin is golden in that regard, though.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Zennix he/him]

I'm usually not very concerned about the characters that an author decides to ship (exceptions include: Harry Potter and the Rand fiasco). But, I love Kaladin's character so much and I've become very emotionally invested in everything that affect. This is why I really need to express my disappointment with how the whole 'love triangle thing' was portrayed.

I admit that I'm not a Shallan fan and Adolin was just a meh character to me (l began to like him towards the end of WoR and in OB), so the whole Shalladin/Shadolin shipping wars never converted me to any of the sides (although they were very fun to read). So, it could have gone either way without me making any fuss about it (although I think Kaladin doesn't really need Shallan's baggage). 

My main issue with OB is that all the build up between Kaladin and Shallan in the previous book was totally ignored. The emotional connection between them, the sharing of life trials, and the physical attraction between them was just reduced to 'flirty Veil wanting to have a fling with the dangerous bad guy'. Seriously, how is Kaladin more dangerous than Adolin?! And how is he the guy?!

Some people have pointed out a possible mirroring of the Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar storyline. I dearly hope that it doesn't go down that path because I think it will only diminish the characters of Shallan and Kaladin. Don't get me started on Navani. I don't think she deserves Dalinar.

I have some more things to rant about but maybe later. But the 'love triangle' storyline diminished my enjoyment of the book a little.

But the Syl scenes helped a lot. So, in order to protect my mental health for the coming 3-4 years before Book 4, the only ship I recognize is Kaladin/Syl. 

[Egomere]

42 minutes ago, Zennix said:

 (exceptions include: Harry Potter and the Rand fiasco).

But, I love Kaladin's character so much and I've become very emotionally invested in everything that affect. This is why I really need to express my disappointment with how the whole 'love triangle thing' was portrayed.

I have some more things to rant about but maybe later. But the 'love triangle' storyline diminished my enjoyment of the book a little.

But the Syl scenes helped a lot. So, in order to protect my mental health for the coming 3-4 years before Book 4, the only ship I recognize is Kaladin/Syl.

Firstly : (wrong series of books to ask about here - but what do you mean about the Rand fiasco (just that it was made a 4 way love fest? or is there more - I'm curious so PM rather than sidetracking this thread if you don't mind please).

Secondly : Yaep love Kaladin and it was the complete lack interaction between Shallan and Kaladin that dissappointed me - not the destination just the journey.

Def. Kaladin and Syl forever (romantic / plutonic whatever those two are perfect for each other (especially as Syl I think will slowly mature but keep her mischevious slightly childish nature to counter Kaladins doom and gloom.

On a further note:

Someone in another topic posted a drawing that included the Ghostblood symbol under a badly drawn person (next to the words see drawing's easy) assuming that the drawing was created by Veil that means Veil really can't draw only Shallan personality can. So along with everything people have mentioned so far then it must have been Shallan that did the perfect drawing and attracting creationspren of Kaladin... only for her to then shunt those feelings (daydreaming of crush) into Veil... just another piece of the puzzle / futher corrobortary info relating to the unsastifying result we've seen so far.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

1 hour ago, Zennix said:

The emotional connection between them, the sharing of life trials, and the physical attraction between them was just reduced to 'flirty Veil wanting to have a fling with the dangerous bad guy'. Seriously, how is Kaladin more dangerous than Adolin?! 

Don't get me started on Navani. I don't think she deserves Dalinar.

On Kaladin being the ' passioate bad boy choice' - seriously right ??! Right? In what world is he considered the 'bad boy'?  Other than just being a super awesome warrior dude The only thing I can come is that Shallan's ingrained prejudices that she was raised with that dark eyes are lower class ( and thus from the wrong side of the tracks so to speak) are peaking out and she doesn't really even realize it. After all she spent most of their acquaintance knowing him as nothing more than the dark eyed captain of the guard not the Radient. 

 

And at at the risk of spinning off on a tangent, I have to address the comment on Navani....whhhhhatt??? 

If we are tallying what people deserve then I don't think there are very many people, fictional or otherwise who really get what they deserve- for good or bad. Dalinar has some serious baggage....he spent MOST of his life being the BAD guy. His redemption arc does not negate all the horrible bad  awful choices he has made. Now don't get me wrong- OB really fleshed out Dalinar for me and I love his arc. It is completely gut wrenching and inspiring to watch his transformation from (let's face it) sociopathic mass murderer to someone worthy of becoming Unity.

I have a whole rant on why Navani would have been a bad choice for him on his younger days but since he made the effort to turn himself into a better man I think it's more more accurate to say that Dalinar had finally made himself worth having a relationship with. Why not Navani? She provides him what he needs now and for some odd reason she has always wanted him. 

Again- didn't mean to hijack the conversation away from its intended thread- just had to comment on that real quick. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by AubreyWrites
Accidental euphemism

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Egomere said:

Someone in another topic posted a drawing that included the Ghostblood symbol under a badly drawn person (next to the words see drawing's easy) assuming that the drawing was created by Veil that means Veil really can't draw only Shallan personality can. So along with everything people have mentioned so far then it must have been Shallan that did the perfect drawing and attracting creationspren of Kaladin... only for her to then shunt those feelings (daydreaming of crush) into Veil... just another piece of the puzzle / futher corrobortary info relating to the unsastifying result we've seen so far.

Yup. Drawing is not part of Veil's personality fragment. And... that exactly seems to be a turning point in Shallan's attraction to Kaladin, maybe she really pushed him away to Veil (unconsciously?) after Jasnah reprimanded her for having "wandering eyes".

[Zennix he/him]

1 hour ago, Egomere said:

Firstly : (wrong series of books to ask about here - but what do you mean about the Rand fiasco (just that it was made a 4 way love fest? or is there more - I'm curious so PM rather than sidetracking this thread if you don't mind please). 

'Fiasco' was probably too strong. It just shows how much I disliked the whole situation. Don't get me wrong.  I love the series, but the ships could have been resolved in a better way. Which is why what I read in OB scare me so much. I really hope that we are just not able to see the full picture right now and can look back after the complete 5(10) books and laugh about another Sanderson master twist and foreshadowing. Please let it be so! 

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Yup. Drawing is not part of Veil's personality fragment. And... that exactly seems to be a turning point in Shallan's attraction to Kaladin, maybe she really pushed him away to Veil (unconsciously?) after Jasnah reprimanded her for having "wandering eyes".

What do you mean by turning point (and where is it in the books)?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

What do you mean by turning point (and where is it in the books)?

During that war council, where Kaladin and Jasnah had some verbal sparring about the fate of the Heralds.

Quote

“Protecting Alethkar,” Kaladin said, “doesn’t have to mean completely crushing the parshmen and—"

“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”

“I’d love that,” Kaladin responded. “In turn, I’ll get you some eels to cuddle. You’ll feel right at home.”

Jasnah, curiously, smiled. “Let me ask this, Captain. Do you think ignoring the movement of Voidbringer troops would be wise?”

“Probably not,” he admitted.

“And do you think, perhaps, that you could train your squire Windrunners to fly up high and scout for us? If spanreeds are proving unreliable these days, we’ll need another method of watching the enemy. I’d happily cuddle skyeels, as you offer, if your team would be willing to spend some time imitating them.”

Kaladin looked to Dalinar, who nodded appreciatively.

“Excellent,” Jasnah said. “Uncle, your coalition of monarchs is a superb idea. We need to pen the enemy in and prevent them from overrunning all of Roshar. If . . .”

She trailed off. Shallan paused, looking at the doodle she’d been doing. Actually, it was a bit more complex than a doodle. It was . . . kind of a full sketch of Kaladin’s face, with passionate eyes and a determined expression. Jasnah had noticed a creationspren in the form of a small gemstone that had appeared on the top of her page, and Shallan blushed, shooing it away.

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said, glancing at Shallan’s sketchbook, “we could do with a short break, Uncle.”

“If you wish,” he said. “I could use something to drink.”

They broke up, Dalinar and Navani chatting softly as they went to check with the guards and servants in the main hallway. Shallan watched them go with a sense of longing, as she felt Jasnah loom over her.

“Let us chat,” Jasnah said, nodding toward the far end of the long, rectangular room.

Shallan sighed, closed her notebook, and followed Jasnah to the other end, near a pattern of tiles on the wall. This far from the spheres brought for the meeting, the lighting was dim.

“May I?” Jasnah said, holding out her hand for Shallan’s notebook.

She relinquished it.

"A fine depiction of the young captain,” Jasnah said. “I see . . . three lines of notes here? After you were pointedly instructed to take the minutes.”

[...]

Jasnah sighed softly, opening up the sketchpad again, 

“Shallan,” she said in a strangely . . . comforting tone. “I’m impressed. I am impressed, truly. But what I’ve heard of you recently is troubling. You’ve ingratiated yourself with my family, and made good on the causal betrothal to Adolin. Yet here you are with wandering eyes, as this sketch testifies.”

Chapter 39

After that there isn't really any sign of that strange attraction anymore. At least not when she is Shallan.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

During that war council, where Kaladin and Jasnah had some verbal sparring about the fate of the Heralds.

Chapter 39

After that there isn't really any sign of that strange attraction anymore. At least not when she is Shallan.

Oh, very interesting, I hadn't noticed that before.  She does do sketches of Kaladin as "Shallan" after that (or at least skilled ones, maybe she was Radiant) because she hides one from Adolin when they are in Kholinar (after leaving the stormshelter) and Adolin notes when he tries to break up with her that he's seen the Kaladin drawings.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

She does do sketches of Kaladin as "Shallan" after that (or at least skilled ones, maybe she was Radiant) because she hides one from Adolin when they are in Kholinar (after leaving the stormshelter) and Adolin notes when he tries to break up with her that he's seen the Kaladin drawings.

I think, that was just that sketch.

Edit: No, you're right, but she says, that Veil seeped through.

Quote

“Shallan,” he said, “these are amazing! Some of the best work you’ve ever done.”

“They’re just quick sketches, Adolin.”

“They’re beautiful,” he said, looking at another, where he stopped. It was a picture of him in one of his new suits.

Shallan blushed. “Forgot that was there,” she said, trying to get the sketchbook back.

He lingered on the picture, then finally succumbed to her prodding and handed it back.

She let out a sigh of relief.

It wasn’t that she’d be embarrassed if he saw the sketch of Kaladin on the next page—she did sketches of all kinds of people. But best to end on the picture of Adolin. Veil had been seeping through on that other one.

God bless eBooks.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I think, that was just that sketch.

I'm pretty confident it is the same sketch too, which I'll note means that one of Shallan's "alters" ensured it didn't get ripped up after being called out by Jasnah on the matter.

@SLNC This is great.  After WoR, I spent hours and hours putting together massive posts, thesis, walls of text explaining the nuances of the Shallan/Kaladin writing.  Now, I get to sit back and watch you do all that for me.  It's nice, so have my most heartfelt thanks, and many of my up votes for this thread.

Edited November 21, 2017 by DeployParachute