[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Ailvara]

Quote

Fortunately, Veil was running this operation. Shallan... Shallan got lost in things. She'd get focused on details, or stick her head in the clouds and dream about the big picture. 

Now I'll just purposefully leave it here in the middle of the conversation about the wedding. 

[Guest]

@PhineasGage

The way I see it:

There is a lot of passion on Shallan's side, but love? Love is a different matter.

Passion is a feeling of ecstasy and euphoria. The stuff, she feels when being all cuddly and kissing with Adolin. And passion doesn't last. It is a state of being.

Love is a state of living. Shared principles and values, respect, honesty, kindness, support, problem solving skills and communication. A deep understanding of your partner’s needs and wants in order for them to be pleased. To learn the desires of each other, the ability to help one another achieve their goals, and to have the willingness to love each other and keep the love going.

All parts of what true love constitutes. The stuff, that should be in place, when marrying. Not all of it, of course. But atleast some.

Passion is not love. It is a part of love. She says, that she loves Adolin, but many young couples mistake passion for love.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Now I'll just purposefully leave it here in the middle of the conversation about the wedding. 

I feel stupid but you are obviously trying to make an important point here but I don't understand what it is (sorry) please explain to my poor befuddled brain?

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She says, that she loves Adolin, but many young couples mistake passion for love.

I would suggest that, perhaps, most do? It is, at least believable. The difference is that I don't have to watch/hear real life teenagers being sickening to each other.  From this perspective alone I am glad there is a planned time-break to the beginning of book 4. They will likely have gotten over the worst of it.

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I would suggest that, perhaps, most do? It is, at least believable. The difference is that I don't have to watch/hear real life teenagers being sickening to each other.  From this perspective alone I am glad there is a planned time-break to the beginning of book 4. They will likely have gotten over the worst of it.

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

I agree, but what I meant is that I don't see her ready to fully give herself to Adolin. To fully commit herself. Which would be signs of true love. Shallan seeks passion and safety and mistakes it for love.

I wonder how she will react if Adolin suddenly wants something from her for once. Because right now, Adolin is the only one making sacrifices.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Ailvara]

12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I feel stupid but you are obviously trying to make an important point here but I don't understand what it is (sorry) please explain to my poor befuddled brain?

Sorry about that! I just linked it to Shallan's reasons for marrying Adolin and attitude to the wedding that was just discussed. How she concentrates on lust, rituals and so on (details) and when it comes to the big picture (love, marriage) she has her head in the clouds. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Ailvara

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Sorry about that! I just linked it to Shallan's reasons for marrying Adolin and attitude to the wedding that was just discussed. How she concentrates on lust, rituals and so on (details) and the big picture she sees (love, marriage) is largely a product of her wishful thinking. 

Thank you. I was up late (reading this forum) so I'm exhausted! I blame the 17th Shard for my stupidity today. 

I do agree with you essentially showing how she wont manage the day-to-day problems of  a serious committed relatiosnhip.

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Adolin is the only one making sacrifices

Indeed, I doubt very much that he left his chamber thinking that the wedding was a celebration of him! Adolin can be a bit self-centred but he's getting better. More importantly, given that he could easily have let himself be trapped into a marriage of convenience before and chose not to, I think he takes the idea of marriage seriously. Given that Shallan's family life seems to have been very messed up, she likely has little understanding of what a happy healthy marriage actually looks like.

[ScavellTane]

Well, they do have Dalinar and Navani to emulate, sort of.

[Nef]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! 

@PhineasGage I'm totally identifying with you right now. I know I could save a lot of emotional energy and accept the relationship statuses at face value and intially that was what I was ready to do at the end of OB. But nope I find myself back on the Shalladin ship. It's mainly because the facts that have been presented as foreshadowing of a continuation of the Shalladin ship have been so convincing to me.

4 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Besides tell me there wasn't more chemistry in that one Kaladin/Jasnah interaction than the whole damnation triangle. 

I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside.

They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. In my mind Jasnah actually fits this bill and the fact that Shallan often tries to emulate Jasnah reinforces my assertion I think. The reveal that Jasnah has a compassionate and merciful side tells me they could be compatible on an emotional level as well. 

HOnestly, I really want an ultimate Radiant couple! Jasnah and Kaladin can be that couple; the two of them possess the most will and drive out of all the Urithiru crew, they're both relentless in their passion to "save the world".

Edited November 20, 2017 by Nef

[the_archduke]

Amazing how no one here seems to want Shallan and Adolin to be happy together.   You are ignoring Shallan's heartfelt explanation of why she chose Adolin and doesn't want Kaladin.   Ten pages of over-analyzing how, even though Adolin and Shallan are married, she is still somehow going to end up with Kaladin.  Give it up people.  The SS Shalladin has been sunk.  

[Nef]

@the_archduke I expect and hope that Shallan and Adolin will be happy together. What I will maintain is that Shallan and Kaladin have/had an attraction to one another and I don't think OB resolved how this attraction could disappear from book 4 onwards. My hope is that the attraction will just be a minor undercurrent going forwards with Kaladin and Shallan maturing their separate ways, only for it to resurface later on.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Nef

[Oberyn he/him]

32 minutes ago, Nef said:

 

I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside.

They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. 

This would actually be a super interesting way to go about the romance with Kaladin and Shalan maturing more and could be one those very rare amazing couples in fantasy series.

Although I agree with your idea of why Shalan and Kal could work very well together, one of the few thing I never had faith in Brandon is his ability to do a nice complex romance in his series. Anyway I do believe that the main romance from mistborn 2 era is the best he has ever written so maybe Mr. Sanderson will surprise me yet again.

[Darvys]

33 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Amazing how no one here seems to want Shallan and Adolin to be happy together.   You are ignoring Shallan's heartfelt explanation of why she chose Adolin and doesn't want Kaladin.   Ten pages of over-analyzing how, even though Adolin and Shallan are married, she is still somehow going to end up with Kaladin.  Give it up people.  The SS Shalladin has been sunk.  

It was a submarine all along, it'll emerge again when the time is right.

Still, there's too many oddities with how the plot was handled to assume this is the end, the point isn't whether she ends up with Kal or not, some of us here are happy that he got away from the mess that is Shallan currently, the point is that we're not buying that Shallan has reached some semblance of ballance in the end of OB and we believe that her marriage is bound to fail or at least hit multiple walls before this is through. We'd be ok with the two of them being happy together, but only if the issues preventing that were addressed and not just magically erased.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Oberyn said:

Anyway I do believe that the main romance from mistborn 2 era is the best he has ever written so maybe Mr. Sanderson will surprise me yet again.

Reckoners spoilers:

Spoiler

Megan and David take the cake. Truly a beautiful couple. 

Steris and Wax are great though.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[discorat she/her]

18 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

 

He doesnt mind killing main characters. He killed off Vin and Elend. He killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker. He killed off Kelsier and quite alot of his crew in the Mistborn trilogy. And no, Kelsier was dead for the purposes of that story so I'm not going to allow his Resurrection to be considered as an out here. The characters in that story thought he was dead and had to get on with it.  We only found out he hadnt passed on long after the trilogy was completed. Hell, Eshonai is dead, she's pretty main and is possibly the flashback candidate for book 5.

Adolin dying is definitely a possibility. Honestly, I don't want him to but if he has to I'd rather he died on the right side than accidentally goes all Odium on us.

 

3

True, but all those seem like..exceptions. Kelsier died early on- and when he did, I felt like Vin was more of the main. Lightson died in the very end, like Vin+Elend. Adolin feels like a proper main, or that could just be because we got so much material of him bc stormlight is so big.

I wouldn't want Adolin to die either; but him dying on the 'wrong' side would be exciting, imo. It would add drama and angs which i love. Even though i love Adolin. But I _never_ imagined Dalinar to be odiums champion, but everyone could see Adolin becoming his champion- if Dalinar was so close to becoming odiums champion, why not Adolin? 

[discorat she/her]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Reckoners spoilers:

  Hide contents

Megan and David take the cake. Truly a beautiful couple. 

Steris and Wax are great though.

Honestly, i didn't really like the reckoners couple. They were to teenage-y for me. Steris+Wax were The couple that learned to become friends first, before they became romantically involved. Ideal relationship.

[Oberyn he/him]

Just now, Discofrish said:

Honestly, i didn't really like the reckoners couple. They were to teenage-y for me. Steris+Wax were The couple that learned to become friends first, before they became romantically involved. Ideal relationship.

Yes that is my main line of thinking talking about Wax+Steris. I kind of see the apeal of the reckoners guys but I do prefer mature romance in general, as I feel they usually make for better complexity in the relationship itself which is both more realistic and interesting to me. 

One of the very good things about the mistborn couple is that Brandon manage to do it without overwhelming the story with it, which is very typical.

[discorat she/her]

Just now, Oberyn said:

Yes that is my main line of thinking talking about Wax+Steris. I kind of see the apeal of the reckoners guys but I do prefer mature romance in general, as I feel they usually make for better complexity in the relationship itself which is both more realistic and interesting to me. 

One of the very good things about the mistborn couple is that Brandon manage to do it without overwhelming the story with it, which is very typical.

Exactly, mature romance>>>everything else. Which is why i prefer Shallan/Kaladin.

And yes, Sanderson is great with romance in that it never overshadows the main plot (which is why everyone reads his books in the first place, anyways).

[Harbour he/him]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

Boom! My mind is blown. Only now i realized that it might be Shallan's personality (one of the three) who said this. Person itself isnt able to "fade away", but the "illusion" of the girl Adolin knows able.

She meant it not figuratively, but literally.

What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Harbour

[Bacon]

I really, really hope Kaladin and Shallan don't get together. It's so tropey and predictable that I really want the series to NOT do the thing everyone obviously knew was definitely going to happen since the first few chapters of book 1

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

I really, really hope Kaladin and Shallan don't get together. It's so tropey and predictable that I really want the series to NOT do the thing everyone obviously knew was definitely going to happen since the first few chapters of book 1

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

I agree, which is why I'm not a huge fan of either pairing. I really like both Shallan and Adolin as separate characters, but their relationship is just another 'arranged marriage turns out to be perfect' trope.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Bacon]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

They're tropey, but nowhere near to those levels. They start as utterly unrelated PoV characters in the first book, they both discover their surgebinding at the same time, they have inborn prejudices against each other (lighteyes and darkeyes), they're always accidentally running into each other, the list goes on. Every step of the way, the narrative is practically screaming "THESE TWO WILL BE TOGETHER!". Even when Shalan and Adolin started seeing each other, there was a constant undertone of "yeah, but just until she falls in love with Kaladin"

[Guest]

Just now, Bacon said:

Even when Shalan and Adolin started seeing each other, there was a constant undertone of "yeah, but just until she falls in love with Kaladin"

And that undertone is still there

Sapphire gown, Veil still being dissociated from Shallan etc. etc.

[Harbour he/him]

Both ships are tropey. So i subconsciously lean towards the ship that crafted better. And subconsciously i feel Shalladin a better crafted love story.

I wonder what BS mean talking about how the relationships in OB are the relationships of confused teenagers. Did he mean just Shalladin, or Shadolin, or both? I actually able t interprent that pre-wedding and wedding scene as the act of confused teenagers.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Harbour

[Dreamstorm]

Like many have written earlier (and as someone who enjoys well-written romance), the "love triangle" development was quite poorly done.  The reason I was excited about it was because in WoR it was treated in an understated way but helped move the characters along (Kal realizing one could be happy even if bad things happens, Shallan realizing she could admit some of her terrible past, and Adolin trying in a relationship for once.)  I personally think the triangle is over - it feels like a plot line Sanderson started, and perhaps got a little deeper into because the chasm scenes turned out so beautifully, but then when he tried to develop it in OB, it fell flat.  Below is what I *think* he was trying to accomplish (though I admit for Shallan, it's a mess):

• Adolin: Realization and acceptance that he's no longer "it" in every respect.  I don't think he ever thought there would be a more prestigious/powerful choice than him romantically (he's not egotistical, but definitely confident that he was the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar.)  With the Radiants, and seeing how Shallan reacts to Kaladin, he has to face that he's not on top anymore, which he does with grace.  Also the fact he thinks Shallan will leave him now that he's not "it", and then she doesn't, allows him to make progress in the idea that he doesn't always HAVE to be "it".  (Possibly some of the reason he stood up to Dalinar about the king business?)  The love triangle business does the most for him.
• Kaladin: His big realization vis a vis Shallan is that some people make him feel lighter and happier (like Tien.)  I'm not 100% sure his feelings were romantic (as the only reason he even very slightly pursued her was after a lot of urging from Syl, and most of his internal monologue about Shallan is being confused about the fact she's so mean to him.)  The books didn't go into it (because I think the K/S scene on the boat was focused on their interaction being so awkward - at least it was to me, lol), but I think there's something in there, not well developed, about how it's OK for him to feel sadness and he doesn't have to force feelings down (and less idolizing of people who can shove feelings down.)  I could see him accepting his feelings of sadness and using them as a strength (kind of like Dalinar with his past) being a plot point for him going forward.  The other part of what Sanderson was trying to accomplish is that I definitely think we will get a romantic arc for Kaladin before the end of the 5-book series; Syl's obsession with him being paired off is unlikely to be dropped, and he acknowledged to Syl that it would be good to have a partner.  So the triangle moved him into a character who could have romantic feelings (after zero in WoK and just briefly with Shallan in WoR - it's mentioned many times that his men are finding partners and yet Kal seems baffled/hesitant by the idea.)
• Shallan:  She is.... as mess.  I *think* we are supposed to think Adolin sees the "real" her and grounds her and that's what she needs?  It was just poorly done, though, as she seems to only make a decision to get married to him as a way to keep him...  I'm going to assume that we as the reader were supposed to think that Adolin was the healthiest, best choice for her?  But it was just not done in an convincing way...  She seems more confused and broken than ever.  Basically mooning over your crush while waiting for your fiance, dramatically telling your fiance you want to get married NOW after fiance tries to give you space, and then being ALL OVER your fiance in public just strikes me as so... wrong.  Or like it was written by a teenage girl.  But I think we're supposed to see this as resolved?  As someone else mentioned, marriage is pretty sacrosanct in Sanderson's books, so I feel like he considers this final.

Overall... there was no reason for this.  Adolin could have has his crisis of importance without involving Kaladin.  Kaladin's outcomes from the triangle seem fairly unnecessary.  Shallan's realization that she wants Adolin was just... abrupt and poorly done.  I guess Sanderson wanted there to be a "choice" for Shallan so there was some "conflict"?  But in the end, I think he gave up on the plot thread and so just phoned it in in the execution.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Dreamstorm