[OB] human species seem evil?

[Sirscott13 he/him]

So coming from kaladin’s perspective I really feel for the parshman, and based on hints about how they were the natives of the land, I’ve come to conclude that perhaps humanity is the invading species and are the bad guys after all. 

Now I know that there is Honor and Odium to consider and the Voidbringers definately have evil tendencies, but still it seems that the parshman are the guys I want to root for after being invaded and enslaved. 

I mean perhaps there will be voidbringing humans and radiant parshman. Then it’s less a war of the species and more of a war between good and odium. 

What are your thoughts? 

[IllNsickly he/him]

As has been said by many others, Mr. Sanderson is very good at not writing strictly Good vs Evil. There are always complex shades of grey in his stories.

This is part of why I like his books so much.

[jamskinner]

Ya. I don't think either party is without fault. It is a bit hard to blame modern humans on Roshar. What if you were a farmer and you woke up and your cows were revolting.  Is the farmer evil?

[Erunion he/him]

Sanderson is good at writing complex motivations for his antagonists. Look at Warbreaker (massive spoilers for Warbreaker below the spoiler tag)

Spoiler

The Pahn Kahl are the native population of much of Hallandren and an oppressed minority. They have every right to self-determination and independence, and have been struggling for it for years. All the while, they’ve been tested as an oppressed, repressed and ignored underclass in Hallandren society.

So a bunch of them decide to start essentially WWII (many-war redux) through brutally murdering innocents in a false-flag event in order to secure their own independence in the wake of a horrific gargantuan war. 

 

It’s entirely reasonable to suspect that Rosharan Humans are, or were, ‘in the wrong’ but that doesn’t justify Odious actions in the part of the Listeners. War crimes are not justified as a response to historic injustice. My evil against you is not justified by your past evil against me, or my hope of a righting of past wrongs. Journey before Destination. 

 

As posted in my thread discussing the ‘girl who looked up’ story, it is likely that the Listeners were in the right and that humanity broke a deal/committed grave injustice against them. But then Odium swept in and used that righteous anger to create hate, great evil, and Desolation. 

[soulcastJam he/him]

I'm not sure that nativity to a land gives you the moral rights to it. That is one system of land ownership that is often used, but it doesn't follow that it is the best one. And if we do use nativity as the deciding factor in who has the rights, then what version do you use?  Do we have some complicated definition of seniority that we apply to make the moral argument? IE, do I have more right to land because it was in my family 4 generations, while it was only in yours 3 generations? But what if your 3 generations were more recent than mine? How does temporal proximity play in this?

There is no well-defined right and wrong that will provide a solution for grievances committed in past generations without causing grievances to the current generation, unless the current generation voluntarily (and unanimously) sacrifices its interest to correct the past. Historically, that has very rarely happened. Otherwise, it's messy. 

[Shuffel]

I don't see how present day humans can be blamed for enslaving the Parshmen.

The Parshmen wouldn't do anything if the humans didn't instruct them. If the humans released all the Parshmen they would of just stood there with nothing to do.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

2 hours ago, Sirscott13 said:

So coming from kaladin’s perspective I really feel for the parshman, and based on hints about how they were the natives of the land, I’ve come to conclude that perhaps humanity is the invading species and are the bad guys after all.

I don't think humans are "bad guys" (or listeners either for that matter!) but I do agree they are probably the invading species.

And I do wonder whether Odium was in some way responsible for introducing humans to Roshar.  Not in a simple "I will bring bad to attack good" manner, but as a way to create conflict where both sides are sympathetic, yet the outcome is disastrous for both.

[Calderis he/him]

The question of the Parshendi being the Voidbringers was already raised in WoR. The stormform were noticeably enslaved there. 

Add in the Parshmen here... And if you think for a moment this will be a war between humans and listeners, then you haven't been paying attention. 

[bo.montier]

47 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The question of the Parshendi being the Voidbringers was already raised in WoR. The stormform were noticeably enslaved there. 

Add in the Parshmen here... And if you think for a moment this will be a war between humans and listeners, then you haven't been paying attention. 

I think the main story is not about humans vs listeners, but I'd honestly be surprised if that isn't a significant part of the plot. 

i.e. The masses of listeners & humans go to war while a few try to point out the true enemy...type thing.
Seems more realistic than the listeners splitting evenly between those that become voidbringers and those that dont (humans split too, just fewer to the voidness)

[Calderis he/him]

28 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I think the main story is not about humans vs listeners, but I'd honestly be surprised if that isn't a significant part of the plot. 

i.e. The masses of listeners & humans go to war while a few try to point out the true enemy...type thing.
Seems more realistic than the listeners splitting evenly between those that become voidbringers and those that dont (humans split too, just fewer to the voidness)

I don't disagree. I think that the racial divide is what Odium wants. It's the main distraction that has to be overcome. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

2 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

And I do wonder whether Odium was in some way responsible for introducing humans to Roshar.  Not in a simple "I will bring bad to attack good" manner, but as a way to create conflict where both sides are sympathetic, yet the outcome is disastrous for both.

Humans and Listeners were on Roshar before any of the shards arrived. 

[bo.montier]

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't disagree. I think that the racial divide is what Odium wants. It's the main distraction that has to be overcome. 

Ok, we're on the same page then. I'm very VERY interested in this particular storyline, because it is a very human one. 
 

[Nymeros]

28 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Humans and Listeners were on Roshar before any of the shards arrived. 

Reference?

[StormingTexan he/him]

Just now, Nymeros said:

Reference?

 

[Nymeros]

Thank you. i dont think humans moved to Rosharof their own power so I do wonder what the heck Adonalsium had planned for Roshar.....

To answer the OP, no, immigrants aren't evil simply because the have a dispute with the initial inhabitants of the area.

[Marethyu316]

I'm glad that it all turned out to be complicated than it looked when Jasnah was convincing Shallan and through her the others that the Parshman were the voidbringers, who would completely lose control once the Everstorm arrived. It seemed too simplistic, and the reality is much more complicated, which I expect will lead to a much better story.

[Starla]

I’ve been thinking about what will happen when Kaladin tells Dalinar and the others that humans are being held captive in pens in Revolar. He’ll also tell them that the majority of the parshmen have not transformed into voidbringers, but are being gathered and directed by a few stormform parshendi and voidspren. I’m sure he’ll stress the fact that the parshmen are not evil, and only want to find a place to live free with their families, and are only following orders because they need guidance and don’t know what else to do.

Having heard all that, I have a feeling the Alethi will only care that the humans are held captive, and will go in with spears and swords blazing to rescue the humans, fighting and slaughtering all parshmen and voidbringer Parshendi alike. I doubt they will make the effort to discern between void-forms and regular parshmen. This could make the normal parshmen even angrier at humans. It’s unfortunate, because I feel like the parshmen could be allies with humans if given the right guidance, or at the very least, encouraged to resist the change into a void form. 

My hope is that some of them, perhaps the parshmen Kaladin travelled with, will resist the transformation and ally with humans against the Odium forms. Maybe some of the other Parshendi we’ve seen: the 1000 stormform escapees, a freed Eshonai, Rlain, can help gather and train the freed parshmen to be something other than voidbringers. But I doubt many humans will see the difference, so I'm worried for the parsh-folk.

Likewise, I can see some humans joining the Odium bandwagon. We've already seen the void spren (Yixli?) trying to bring Kaladin over to their side, so they are not averse to human help. She said they will work with anyone who can hold a spear and take orders, so I can easily see humans on the other side, and hopefully parshendi on the non-Odium side.

[Kaladin Zahel]

Unfortunately, I don't believe you can have an absolute bad/good guy in a Sanderson story. At least not in his Cosmere works.

The Heralds aren't THE good guys.

The Listeners aren't THE bad guys.

We can't say the KR, Lighteyes, Tanavast, Hoid, main plot protagonists etc. were THE good guys.

And we can't say Odium, Taravangian, the Ghostbloods, Shallan's father etc. were THE bad guys.

At least I can't. I refuse to pigeon-hole myself while TLRs, flawed heroes, and good intending shard-holders gone corrupt can still surprise me.

[Marethyu316]

There have been a couple of guys that are as close to an "absolute" bad guy, though. Dilaf in Elantris had a backstory that explained a little bit of his motivation, but he was already pretty bad through and through

Spoiler

, and was the head of Dakhor monastery when he brought his wife to the Elantrians. I guess he shifted from being a hypocrite to a genocidal maniac when she died, but I don't think he was a good person prior to this. The things that lead Hraethen to leave Dakhor were already part of Dilaf's personality and actions decades before she died.

The other story that jumps to my mind is Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. Chesterton and his gang were bad dudes, through and through and Theopolis was an awful person, with no redeeming qualities that I can think of.

Regarding the other characters you mention, I generally agree that they were more complicated, and that is usually my preference, because it makes the story more interesting. The one that I don't agree with you about is Odium. I don't see much text evidence to suggest that he is anything but corrupted by his shard's intent, so at this point I don't find any redeeming qualities to make me feel any empathy toward him. Rayse as a person might not have been fully evil (we don't know), but Hoid certainly didn't like him.

[Blacksmithki]

32 minutes ago, Marethyu316 said:

There have been a couple of guys that are as close to an "absolute" bad guy, though. Dilaf in Elantris had a backstory that explained a little bit of his motivation, but he was already pretty bad through and through

  Hide contents

, and was the head of Dakhor monastery when he brought his wife to the Elantrians. I guess he shifted from being a hypocrite to a genocidal maniac when she died, but I don't think he was a good person prior to this. The things that lead Hraethen to leave Dakhor were already part of Dilaf's personality and actions decades before she died.

The other story that jumps to my mind is Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. Chesterton and his gang were bad dudes, through and through and Theopolis was an awful person, with no redeeming qualities that I can think of.

Regarding the other characters you mention, I generally agree that they were more complicated, and that is usually my preference, because it makes the story more interesting. The one that I don't agree with you about is Odium. I don't see much text evidence to suggest that he is anything but corrupted by his shard's intent, so at this point I don't find any redeeming qualities to make me feel any empathy toward him. Rayse as a person might not have been fully evil (we don't know), but Hoid certainly didn't like him.

I mean, it's mostly a comparison to he Standered style of villain from fantasy, so look at the various representatives of pure evil in many fantasy series as opposed to, say, Ruin. I can't remember elantris to well, but compare most villains in Brandon's books to someone like Sauron or sauromon (I misspelled both almost 100%)

[Michael Portz he/him]

22 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I don't see how present day humans can be blamed for enslaving the Parshmen.

Yepp! I for my part dont feel any guilt towards the Parshmen. They even live in a fictional world...

(sorry, couldn't resist *blush*)

[Marethyu316]

2 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I mean, it's mostly a comparison to he Standered style of villain from fantasy, so look at the various representatives of pure evil in many fantasy series as opposed to, say, Ruin. I can't remember elantris to well, but compare most villains in Brandon's books to someone like Sauron or sauromon (I misspelled both almost 100%)

That I agree with. I think he makes a conscious effort to twist things away from the standard fantasy trope.

I'm not convinced though that Odium and Ruin are equivalent. For one, Ruin had a balance with Preservation and worked willing with Leras for centuries. Odium seems to have quite quickly decided that he wanted to eliminate other shards. That seems like evil on a higher level than Ruin's desire to break things down. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon gave Odium/Rayse's actions an internal logic that is beyond just "pure" evil, at least from Odium's perspective.