[OB] Creative Applications of Regrowth

[ZenBossanova]

How creative can we be in using Regrowth? 

Could Renarin use that surge to restore the books in the Library? 

[Dlyol]

I had an idea a while back about how the growth (as opposed regrowth) element of Progression might be creatively used. 

 

[SilverTiger]

I really hope that he can restore the books... That would be so awesome, the rediscovery of so much ancient knowledge. Jasnah would be thrilled.

[Xaladin]

2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

How creative can we be in using Regrowth? 

Could Renarin use that surge to restore the books in the Library? 

I was thinking along the same lines, but more in the way of how he describes his own ability. He Sees. So why not See things like those books before they were destroyed?

Edited October 31, 2017 by Xaladin
Punctuation

[Andy92]

For anyone who has ever played an MMORPG and got stuck being the team healer...you tend to feel bad for Renarin lol. 

Never appreciated for what you do. Everyone complains when you aren't around. 

As far as the thread topic, I'm not sure how the surge can affect physical objects that aren't human. So far we've only seen that surge used by Renarin and Lift to heal people, not restore objects. But it would be interesting if restoring the library was a possibility. Everything does have a "soul" in Shadesmar... 

[Wandering Investor]

Growth in terms of healing, like most forms of healing throughout the cosmere, functions based on (self?)identity. Brightlord Broodingeyes sees his brands as part of himself, so they won't heal. But Lopen sees himself as properly having two arms, so his arm can grow back. This would likely make it difficult to apply to the books, as they've likely been destroyed for a long time. All they will think of themselves is broken books. It would be interesting if the healer could intercede on the books and provide the "correct state" for the growth to repair to. But even then, the healer wouldn't know what was in the books, which would probably prevent him from providing the Identity they wanted.

[ZenBossanova]

53 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

As far as the thread topic, I'm not sure how the surge can affect physical objects that aren't human. So far we've only seen that surge used by Renarin and Lift to heal people, not restore objects. But it would be interesting if restoring the library was a possibility. Everything does have a "soul" in Shadesmar... 

Lift did make seeds grow, so it isn't strictly people only. 

[Andy92]

22 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Lift did make seeds grow, so it isn't strictly people only. 

Good point. Sometimes I forget the details when the books are so long...lol 

[Salkara]

3 hours ago, Andy92 said:

For anyone who has ever played an MMORPG and got stuck being the team healer...you tend to feel bad for Renarin lol.

Some people are cut out to be a healer, others just get the job because the party needs one. Hopefully Renarin is the former. I raided pretty heavily in WoW through vanilla and the first expansion, and I saw enough of the latter to know they're never happy.

[Entyti]

7 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Could Renarin use that surge to restore the books in the Library? 

I doubt the books can be restored using Growth. If I understand this correctly, Growth and Regrowth come from the Progression Surge. As the name implies, and from the examples we've seen, this seems to accelerate objects in time.

Lyft turns seeds into vines and saplings into huge trees using Growth. In these examples, the objects age quickly. 

Healing could be described in this way as well. A wound under this Surge rapidly clots, reknits; cells quickly divide, etc. 

We have not seen this Surge used on inanimate objects, but I think it's safe to say that it would do similar things. Fruit would ripen/rot quickly, wine could be aged instantly, that kind of thing.

My guess is that decaying books would simply turn to dust.

Unless you can use the Surge in reverse. Then I suppose it could work. Is that a thing?

[shadowwisp]

11 minutes ago, Entyti said:

Unless you can use the Surge in reverse. Then I suppose it could work. Is that a thing?

Growth in reverse...like Regrowth?

I think Growth accelerates objects in time (vines). I think Regrowth restores objects back to their previous condition (healing).

They both can't accelerate,  otherwise why give them different names? Plus I believe Regrowth can restore Shardblade cut wounds, which wouldn't be possible if all it did was accelerate the bodies healing via time. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Entyti]

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

Growth in reverse...like Regrowth?

Hmm... I don't really follow this logic. I'm not saying it's wrong. I just don't follow it.

It's not Re(verse)growth. It is re- as in, again- growth. 

Sure, it does heal wounds beyond what a normal body would heal, but that could simply be because it is functioning on another level, such as the Cognitive or Spiritual realm.

I think the distinction between Growth and Regrowth is between the complexity of the Surge. At least, that was the impression I got from Wyndle when he commented on the ability.

I will have to go into the books for descriptions of the healing, but I would think that if healed wounds are described as having new pink flesh, this would be evidence in favor of my hypothesis that Regrowth rebuilds rather than resets.

[Mulk]

If Regrowth works on the inanimate (and off the top of my head I can't recall seeing that) it will be because it can link an object to its former cognitive state; if stick had burned, regrowth would have to be able to link stick's ashes somehow back to what it had been before.

I don't see how that's possible, but then again, Brandon hasn't said it's impossible.  The only thing I see in the text indicating that it might be is that Kaladin's image of himself affects the fact that his slave brands aren't healed by Stormlight.  If stick's sense of self and what it is is enough to rebuff ordinary attempts to soulcast it, then perhaps it is enough to let the shape and substance of what it was linger for a time after it perishes and allow it to be restored.

[Gigalemesh]

I've seen the argument that maybe soulcasting could be used to restore the books, but once again we get the issue of not knowing what was in the books beforehand, I guess it depends how long the books have been destroyed and wether they exist as destroyed in the cognitive realm or have retained some sense of their intact state.

mistborn secret history spoilers 

Spoiler

We see kelsier return something like an unlit fire back to a lit one, and it was possible because the cognitive aspect of the fire retained a sense of what it had been and had been perceived to be. It that case though it had existed as a constantly lit fire much longer than an unlit one, and he only affected (effected?) the cognitive aspect of the fire not the physical aspect, so it's hard to say how that would come into play with the books, though having stormlight available would probably help

 

[Leyrann]

I've just posted an extensive theory about the nature of the Cosmere, and we also have an interesting WoB on the subject as well, confirming that healing is limited (but also enabled) by Identity. Basically, the Surgebinder pours in the Investiture required, then the Identity gives it's "healthy" form, what it's supposed to be like, and then the Investiture fixes the Physical form. As everything in the Cosmere has some sort of consciousness, and therefore a stable Identity (no consciousness means Identity fully depends on the forces of nature, but consciousness can influence Identity so that it stays the same), the books will probably still have their Identity of when they were intact, which means they can be repaired.

[redbishop]

I'm with @Gigalemesh.  And while fabrial-based Soulcasting probably wouldn't work, we saw from Shallan's perspective in WoR that objects have Identity that they are aware of.  Hence the Stick, and the ship.  If so, a Radiant using Transformation could possibly coax the book to be itself again.  Maybe.

Using Regrowth could have some interesting effects, though.  I would expect the pulp in the paper to re-grow into a sapling, for instance, although we also saw Lift be cautioned that the (long) dead cannot be healed.

[Rasha]

These books have spent centuries being in a dust/blank state. I doubt they have retained enough of their Identity to the extent that a Radiant could even restore partially the text.

[Yata]

Regrowth as every other form of Cosmere's Healing works alligning the subject's three aspect it's not really time related or biology related

[Yata]

Regrowth as every other form of Cosmere's Healing works alligning the subject's three aspect it's not really time related or biology related

[SilverTiger]

If the books' retain their Cognitive idea of being a book, then Renarin could restore them to that perfected-Spiritual state. Also, we know that the Spiritual Realm is location-independent, so it could be time-independent. Remember how Adolin saw that perfected version of himself when Renarin healed him? That might help.

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent. I'm not at my best in the morning.

[Isaiah Zayth]

22 hours ago, Rasha said:

These books have spent centuries being in a dust/blank state. I doubt they have retained enough of their Identity to the extent that a Radiant could even restore partially the text.

I agree with your outcome but disagree on the specifics of what identity was lost. We see Jasnah turn rope to smoke when she frees the sailors on the Wind's Pleasure, indicating that with enough stormlight you can convince items to overcome their identity. If soulcasting and regrowth are similar, then the problem is not convincing or regrowing the dust back into books; I think that process would actually be fairly simple. The problem arises when you attempt to put ink back on the book's pages. Even if you travelled to Shadesmar and attempted to locate the beads that originally were ink, I don't think you would be able to find any due to how long these books have been without ink.

So really, the question comes down to this: Did a ruined book at some point possess the whole identity of a book (ink and words included) or are those two substances (paper and ink) sperate enough to possess two different identities?

Not sure if that makes any sense. What I'm trying to say is that I think soulcasting and regrowth depend heavily on how identity is determined. A book possesses so many variables: binding, paper, adhesive, ink, age, etc., while the makeup of ink throughout a book would be relatively consistent. Also, ink is nearly always used for writing and communication; if you could find a scrap of paper with ink on it, maybe you could regrow a specific page to remember the ink that was on it. And I think it would be possible to soulcast partial pages back into whole pages if you could somehow find a bead for the specific page (and maybe the ink that was on it) in Shadesmar.

I might be getting too detailed with the concept of Identity here. It's also early and I have a test in 15 min.   Does anyone else have thoughts?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Isaiah Zayth

[Blacksmithki]

@Isaiah Zayth Umm... First when did Jashnah soulcast rope on that ship? If you meant shallen she didn't either, she soulcast the boat making it so the ropes weren't secured to anything... In fact I don't remember if she even did that much I think she just soulcast the bottom of the boat away letting them get free if possible.

You might be referring to the non-canon bit from Jasnah after she fully entered the CR, but that wasn't 100% canon last I checked.

[AbsentKeeper]

6 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

@Isaiah Zayth Umm... First when did Jashnah soulcast rope on that ship? If you meant shallen she didn't either, she soulcast the boat making it so the ropes weren't secured to anything... In fact I don't remember if she even did that much I think she just soulcast the bottom of the boat away letting them get free if possible.

You might be referring to the non-canon bit from Jasnah after she fully entered the CR, but that wasn't 100% canon last I checked.

That is most definitely what they are referring to.

I mean, the article does say that it's 'not quite' cannon, but that's only because it's a rough draft version, not because the event isn't canonical.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[SilverTiger]

Um, I think identity is more related to how people see the object than you think. Normally, when I see a book, I see a book, not a collection of adhesive, paper pages, ink, etc. So the book as a whole would have one bead, not many for the different parts (the Wind's Pleasure, a ship, had only one bead as well). Which might make things easier: find the book-bead, then convince it to become the way it was. We've actually seen something similar with Soulforging. Plus, scholars have thought about the books in Urithiru for ages, which might have helped maintain the Cognitive Identity over the years.

[Leyrann]

49 minutes ago, Isaiah Zayth said:

I agree with your outcome but disagree on the specifics of what identity was lost. We see Jasnah turn rope to smoke when she frees the sailors on the Wind's Pleasure, indicating that with enough stormlight you can convince items to overcome their identity. If soulcasting and regrowth are similar, then the problem is not convincing or regrowing the dust back into books; I think that process would actually be fairly simple. The problem arises when you attempt to put ink back on the book's pages. Even if you travelled to Shadesmar and attempted to locate the beads that originally were ink, I don't think you would be able to find any due to how long these books have been without ink.

So really, the question comes down to this: Did a ruined book at some point possess the whole identity of a book (ink and words included) or are those two substances (paper and ink) sperate enough to possess two different identities?

Not sure if that makes any sense. What I'm trying to say is that I think soulcasting and regrowth depend heavily on how identity is determined. A book possesses so many variables: binding, paper, adhesive, ink, age, etc., while the makeup of ink throughout a book would be relatively consistent. Also, ink is nearly always used for writing and communication; if you could find a scrap of paper with ink on it, maybe you could regrow a specific page to remember the ink that was on it. And I think it would be possible to soulcast partial pages back into whole pages if you could somehow find a bead for the specific page (and maybe the ink that was on it) in Shadesmar.

I might be getting too detailed with the concept of Identity here. It's also early and I have a test in 15 min.   Does anyone else have thoughts?

If you want to get detailed with the concept of Identity, you need to look no further than my signature. 

It seems, however, that there are both Identities and sub-Identities. Remember how, in WoK, Jasnah Soulcast Shallan's blood after she was poisoned? Apparently, while Shallan has an Identity, her blood has a sub-Identity.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Leyrann
Wording