[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[Asrael he/him]

6 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Oiiii! That took a dark turn ! You can't do that at least until the Stormlight Archive is finished  My biggest fear nowadays, is not death, but dying before I get to read all the books  Some would say I am not right in the head

No way, my biggest fear is Brandon dying before I get to read all the books; I'm almost 20 years younger than him

 

@Firerust I upvote you in solidarity!

Edited November 3, 2017 by Asrael

[Musica she/her]

6 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

the only motivation I have to start eating greens and hitting the gym 

Sharders- in shape only because of their fear of dying before the last SA book comes out

XD

[Marethyu316]

I'm re-reading Well of Ascension and Tindwyl says some interesting things about what makes a good king that I think bears on the story about the four accused men, and the responsibilities faced by Taravangian and Dalinar as leaders.

 

Quote

As king, everything that happens in your kingdom— regardless of who commits the act— is your fault. You are even responsible for unavoidable events such as earthquakes or storms.”

“Or armies,” Elend said.

Tindwyl nodded. “Or armies. It is your responsibility to deal with these things, and if something goes wrong, it is your fault. You simply have to accept this.” ...

“Now, let’s talk about guilt,” Tindwyl said, seating herself...

“Guilt,” Tindwyl said, “does not become a king. You have to stop feeling sorry for yourself.”

“You just told me everything that happens in the kingdom is my fault!”

“It is.”

“How can I not feel guilty, then?”

“You have to feel confident that your actions are the best,” Tindwyl explained. “You have to know that no matter how bad things get, they would be worse without you. When disaster occurs, you take responsibility, but you don’t wallow or mope. You aren’t allowed that luxury; guilt is for lesser men. You simply need to do what is expected.”

“And that is?”

“To make everything better.”

“Great,” Elend said flatly. “And if I fail?”

“Then you accept responsibility, and make everything better on the second try.”

(p. 233-234)

This really resonates with me. It's why the dilemma posed in chapter 28 is so powerful, because even though there is no way that the landlord can figure out which person is innocent, it is nevertheless his fault for not being able to figure it out. He has the responsibility to ensure justice and that means punishing the guilty and protecting the innocent. When he can't do that, it is his fault, even if it is objectively caused by the actions of others. He can't claim that he is innocent of the man's blood if he executes all four, or of allowing the guilty to escape punishment, if he doesn't. Yet, he also can't wallow in that guilt, he has to act for the best, and when he fails, try to do better next time. 

To me that's what sets Dalinar apart. While Taravangian does seem to take responsibility for his actions in his POV, he is so sure of himself, that I think he is blinded to the times that he fails. Dalinar realizes that he's made mistakes, will continue to do so, but nevertheless is trying to make things better.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Marethyu316
typos and formatting

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

On 11/1/2017 at 10:37 PM, maxal said:

Realistically speaking, Dalinar succeeding upon his first trial is not entirely plausible. He was a warlord and he did built himself a name by slaughtering people: having the world readily join forces with him wouldn't have made for great story telling. So it isn't so much I want Dalinar to fail, it is more he needs to fail. He needs to make amends for the man he once was and in this optic it was great to read Amaram calling Dalinar out for being a hypocrite because he is one. How can he demand Amaram is to be trialed for crimes he is guilty of having committed himself? How does he justify himself getting away from it? 

I say Dalinar has put himself into quite a moral dilemma and his growth will require him to address his past.

I agree with this. A lot of characters have been accepting Dalinar's leadership on the basis that Dalinar is better than your average light-eyes, that he holds himself to a higher standard. Kaladin and Bridge Four give up their freedom in a very real way to serve under Dalinar because he's a good man. Elhokar bent the knee to him. Aladar will follow him "to the ends of the storms themselves." He's now married to the woman he always loved. In a sense, Dalinar's been getting off easy. He's faced a lot of physical danger, of course, but he's faced that his entire life, and it hasn't ultimately hurt him. He gave up a Shardblade, but he was still more powerful at the end of tWoK then he was when he started. So far Dalinar's principles have paid off for him very well.

(What about the loss of his men in the end of TWoK?, you may ask. That was about Dalinar's trust in Sadeas, but the decision to trust or not trust Sadeas is a not a _moral_ decision; a man who distrusted Sadeas from the start would not be immoral for doing so.)

I'm not say that Dalinar's life has been nothing but rainbows and sunshine. I am saying that Dalinar hasn't really had to confront himself in a real way over the course of the books to date. In a metaphorical sense, he, like Nohadon, hasn't had to decide what to do with the four hog-men; it's just a provocative parable to him. What I think the story needs from him is to see him sticking to his principles when it hurts him in a very deep way, to really dramatize that this new principled stance of his isn't just affectation to him but something real that he's willing to pay a cost for. This is a big reason why I think that Dalinar is going to have to exile Adolin, and why I think he's going to have to find a way to 'unite them' that doesn't rely on aggressive conquest. But whatever happens specifically in the plot, I think this dramatic objective needs to be (and will be) achieved in some fashion.

What I think the story does not need from him is for him to become the Blackthorn again and unleash the beast within. I think that would undermine a lot of people's stories, not just his. If other people were sacrificing to serve Dalinar, while Dalinar got to do the same old crap as any other Alethi warlord, then those other people start to look like a bunch of chumps. If Dalinar gets to go around conquering nations under some thin world-saving rationale, then what makes him so much better than the others that Bridge Four gave up their freedom to serve him? Doesn't it change Elhokar's speech about what a better person Dalinar is from a moment of mature self-appraisal to the sad delusions of a naif?

I'm not often a person who requires protagonists in a story to be likable or wise or principled. But I think the Stormlight Archive in particular is powered by an ever-growing sense of communal obligation among the protagonists and a strong sense of mutual sacrifice for the greater good. Take away the mutuality of that and the edifice crumbles.

[Pattern he/him]

On 31.10.2017 at 4:26 PM, SLNC said:

She never says, that she drops Veil's face. She says that she takes off the hat and coat, yes, but nothing else. After that she paints Shallan's havah and then states, that she became Shallan again. I figured, that she painted Shallan over Veil, since she also called Shallan a persona in the immediately following sentence.

I also read that scene as if Shallan drew her face over Veil's face instinctively. And this is not so far from the truth, since the Shallan we see is just another persona she assumes.

But I really read progress for Shallan in these chapters. She realizes that she is none of her personas but all her personas are her. She also switches instinctively between her personas as she needs them and she is again able to create illusions from lost drawings as she did while telling the story about the Girl who looked up.

Also, bluffing one of the Unmade seems quite an achievement to me as the acknowledging that she is someone who lies and will continue to do so forever. This might be the core of her personality. Shallan lies to herself and the world around her to achieve what she thinks she has to. We can like this or not, we can see this as unhealthy behaviour or just as a quirk, but it is what Shallan is. This realization I see as the major progress for Shallan in these awsome chapters.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Pattern
typo

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Pattern said:

And this is not so far from the truth, since the Shallan we see is just another persona she assumes.

It isn't. At least not in the way, that she uses Radiant and Veil, which are completely different personalities from what Shallan really is. Shallan is more... of an augmentation of her real self, which is something everyone does. I know Shallan uses the word "persona" to define both Radiant and Veil, but I much prefer Pattern's way of calling them lies. Radiant and Veil might be splits of her personality, but they are still not Shallan. The "persona" of Shallan, the scholar, the artist, is, who Shallan is. What defines her deep at her core. Sure, personalities change over time, but I don't think, that that is happening with Shallan. She is simply forgetting herself, maybe because she already stated, that she hates herself, while some small part in her still rebels against that. Crying out, when she paints Shallan over Veil. Not understanding what is happening.

42 minutes ago, Pattern said:

She also switches institively between her personas as she needs them

Which is dangerous. She's losing control over her personality, over her identity. It is a coping mechanism, a crutch, which is constantly creating new stressful situations for her (i.e. she panicking, that Adolin might see her in Veil's clothes) Using Radiant and Veil would be a-ok, if she would use them consciously. This way, she just loses the grip on what defines her.

Like Tyn once told her:

Quote

“But here’s the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they’re not real. We can’t let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn.” [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. “When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then . . .”

I still think, that this implied "death" could mean, that Shallan forgets herself.

42 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Also, bluffing one of the Unmade seems quite an achievement to me as the acknowledging that she is someone who lies and will continue to do so forever. This might be the core of her personality. Shallan lies to herself and the world around her to achieve what she thinks she has to. We can like this or not, we can see this as unhealthy behaviour or just as a quirk, but it is what Shallan is. This realization I see as the major progress for Shallan in these awsome chapters.

Character progress? Definitely. Positive progress? I'd argue against that.

She didn't bluff the Unmade, she lied to herself to temporarily overcome a mental block, she has. The fear of someone finding out about her past. Of her secrets. She lied to herself, that she isn't afraid. It might work once or twice, but sooner or later she'll get caught up in her self-delusions. She shows what she is capable of, if she finally would address her issues.

Edited November 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The "persona" of Shallan, the scholar, the artist, is, who Shallan is.

This is the part of Shallan she decides to show the public. There are also suppressed hidden parts which emerge in her illusions. And there is a part of her that hates being described as diverting or clever, adjectives closely related to the artist and scholar Shallan. In fact, Shallan uses sketching and studying as diversions, too. Even as a child she went out into the garden to draw things to get her mind from possibly bad things happening in her family, so finally she became an artist (and also a Lightweaver as a child). This can also be seen as a coping mechanism, which I think is a normal and good way to deal with stuff you cannot change. Shallan realizes most times what she is doing and conciously decides to continue it. The dangerous moments are when she doesn't realize and is not able to tell truth from lies.

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She didn't bluff the Unmade, she lied to herself to temporarily overcome a mental block, she has.

She bluffed the Unmade whom she was totally open to while lying to herself. It was the only way to bluff (she had to believe the lie herself as truth so Re-Shephir would read it as thus) and she had to bluff since she didn't know how to imprison Re-Shephir again. One part of the lying was to hide her secrets from her past, but the most important hidden secret is that Shallan had no idea how to deal with Re-Shephir. You call her lying a crutch, I call it a tool. There is certainly the danger of losing herself in the personas but also the possiblity to control them in acknowledging that a part of Shallan is the core of every single one of her personas.

Those personas are not herself, since Shallan not only uses Illumination but also Transformation.

Quote

"You spoke of one Surge, earlier," Pattern said. "Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation."
"Soulcasting?" Shallan said. "I didn't Soulcast anyone."
"Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm."

WoR - chapter 20

I think when Shallan becomes Veil or Radiant she takes weak personality traits of herself and augments them, transforming herself in the process. And I see Shallan realizing this slowly in the last chapters.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Pattern
Typos

[Guest]

@Pattern

You misunderstand me. Of course, Shallan is a persona in the Jungian sense of the definition of the word, which is why I hate, that Brandon used it. What I mean is, that Shallan is what defines her. That Shallan is her core personality. When she opened herself up to Kaladin, talking about her past? She was still Shallan. When she was confronted with her traumatic memory she repressed? She was still Shallan. Shallan is the personality, that still has access to those repressed parts, which makes it the real her. Of course, the events of her childhood changed and shaped her. No one denies that. I'm not even denying, that both Veil and Radiant are based on some inherent traits, that Shallan has, but they are still just lies. Well crafted lies, for sure, but lies. I don't think, that Shallan would be incapable of what Veil and Radiant are accomplishing, quite the opposite really, if she would finally confront her issues... Constant avoidance doesn't fix things, it just prolongs the inevitable confrontation.

The lie during the fight with the Unmade was just for herself. To give her new strength to push further, to make her believe she is powerful enough, to fuel her commitment. She didn't create an illusion for Re-Shephir.

Quote

Shallan hung on, pressing herself against the enemy, but realization washed over her—the understanding that this thing was going to know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets.

Her ferocity and determination wavered; her commitment began to seep away.

So she lied. She insisted that she wasn’t afraid. She was committed. She’d always been that way. She would continue that way forever.

Power could be an illusion of perception. Even within yourself.

Which is why I'm saying, that she finally shows what she is capable of, but instead of realizing, that this stupid fear is holding her back, she pushes past it once. I highly doubt, she'll begin to address it. In life or death situations, Shallan always was capable. She always pulled through (Tyn trying to murder her, Soulcasting the ship to water etc.), she always overcame her issues then... but she never built on that.

I don't quite get what you're meaning to tell me with using Transformation... Especially, since the context in chapter 20 of WoR was, that she influenced the deserters with her words, while using Lightweaving to augment her appearance. Pattern simply compared it to using the Surge of Transformation, because it is the best how he understood what happened.

Transformation is defined as The Surge of Soulcasting in the Ars Arcanum. She didn't Soulcast the deserters. Nor is she Soulcasting herself.

Edited November 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Pattern he/him]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The lie during the fight with the Unmade was just for herself.

So why should Re-Shephir had given in and fled only because Shallan felt commited again? As you quoted yourself,

Quote

Shallan hung on, pressing herself against the enemy, but realization washed over her—the understanding that this thing was going to know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets.

One of those secrets - the most important one - is that Shallan has no idea how to defeat Re-Shephir. Had Re-Shephir realized this, the fight would have been lost for Shallan. If Shallan had only lied to herself to hide her past from the Unmade, the result would have been only a side effect and pure luck.

Quote

So she lied. She insisted that she wasn’t afraid. She was committed. She’d always been that way. She would continue that way forever.

The point I wanted to bring in with Transformation is that lies can become truth for Shallan. Power can be an illusion of perception, it is most of the times. This is the very lesson Jasnah tought Shallan. It is power nonetheless. Shallan transforms herself from wavering to commited. The lie becomes the truth.
Furthermore, Shallan does not only wear another face when she becomes Veil or Radiant, she also transforms her mindset. Using the lies, Shallan creates a new truth temporarily, so to say.
To do this, she uses both of her surges, Illumination and Transformation, on herself.

[Guest]

Re-Shephir already was afraid of Shallan, because she is a Lightweaver. Shallan just pushed against her with all the force she had and Re-Shephir fled.

27 minutes ago, Pattern said:

If Shallan had only lied to herself to hide her past from the Unmade, the result would have been only a side effect and pure luck.

And why can't this be? There is not textual evidence, that Shallan was afraid, that Re-Shephir might notice, that she really has no idea how to imprison her. Only that she was afraid, that Re-Shephir might know her secrets. A thing, she is always afraid of.

27 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The point I wanted to bring in with Transformation is that lies can become truth for Shallan. Power can be an illusion of perception, it is most of the times. This is the very lesson Jasnah tought Shallan. It is power nonetheless. Shallan transforms herself from wavering to commited. The lie becomes the truth.
Furthermore, Shallan does not only wear another face when she becomes Veil or Radiant, she also transforms her mindset. Using the lies, Shallan creates a new truth temporarily, so to say.
To do this, she uses both of her surges, Illumination and Transformation, on herself.

Once again, we have no evidence, that Transformation even works that way. Soulcasting is the manipulation of matter on a subatomic level - rearranging protons, neutrons and electrons in the Physical Realm through the Cognitive Realm.

Just because you can use the word "transform" to describe a process, doesn't mean that it is dependent on the Surge of Transformation.

Of course, she changes her mindset, when she becomes Radiant or Veil. They are completely different personalities. This has nothing to do with her Surgebinding. The human psyche is perfectly capable of doing this by itself.

And that is what is so dangerous, man. You can lie to people, hell, you can even lie to yourself. As long as you can still discern the fact that you lied. You can't let it become the truth.

Edited November 3, 2017 by SLNC
science stuff

[Pattern he/him]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Once again, we have no evidence, that Transformation even works that way. Soulcasting is the manipulation of matter on a subatomic level - rearranging protons and nucleons in the Physical Realm through the Cognitive Realm.

I took the quote from WoR in my previous post as a hint that the Transformation surge is more than just Soulcasting. Perhaps this is the Lightweaver resonance, instead. We have no hard evidence but to interpret it as I do still is valid. Shallan does more than pure Illumination with her illusions (either combination of surges or resonance).

Also, I see Soulcasting as changing the spiritual aspect of an object or a person through the Cognitive Realm with more or less drastic effects in the Physical Realm (similar to Soulstamps in The Emperor's Soul). Rearranging subatomic matter is a part of this, but also changing your skillset. A soulstamp has to be plausible to take effects for a longer time, so I think do Shallans illusions (therefore the drawings first). I have to look up WoBs and other stuff on this though.

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

There is not textual evidence, that Shallan was afraid, that Re-Shephir might notice, that she really has no idea how to imprison her.

There is textual evidence that Shallan does not know how to imprison Re-Shephir. It is the most obvious thing Shallan would want to hide from her. No real need to write that out.

 

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And that is what is so dangerous, man. You can lie to people, hell, you can even lie to yourself. As long as you can still discern the fact that you lied. You can't let it become the truth.

It can be dangerous, but it can also be helpful. Especially when we talk about feelings, for example to persuade yourself you are not afraid, even if you are, can be a true source of power. The lie becomes the truth and a change is performed.
This is of course exaggerated in Shallan's case, since we see something magical exceeding real processes.

I agree with you that all this has to be done consciously, otherwise it does become dangerous.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Pattern

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I took the quote from WoR in my previous post as a hint that the Transformation surge is more than just Soulcasting. Perhaps this is the Lightweaver resonance, instead. We have no hard evidence but to interpret it as I do still is valid. Shallan does more than pure Illumination with her illusions (either combination of surges or resonance).

I can't see the validity, when influencing persons through words and charisma is a thing and exactly what happened there.

12 minutes ago, Pattern said:

It can be dangerous, but it can also be helpful. Especially when we talk about feelings, for example to persuade yourself you are not afraid, even if you are, can be a true source of power. The lie becomes the truth and a change is performed.
This is of course exaggerated in Shallan's case, since we see something magical exceeding real processes.

I don't deny that, still the lie doesn't become truth. You are still afraid, there is just something you are more afraid of. Your fear isn't gone. Just suppressed.

You see something magical exceeding real processes, I don't.

15 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I agree with you that all this has to be done consciously, otherwise it does become dangerous.

Which Shallan isn't doing anymore. The constant switching and painting Shallan over Veil isn't conscious. You called it instinctively. Instincts are not conscious.

[Pattern he/him]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I can't see the validity, when influencing persons through words and charisma is a thing and exactly what happened there.

Shallan did all this infused with stormlight (she changed her own appearance and possibly more). So there is more to the situation than just manipulation through charisma and words. Shallan used an illusion and therefore possibly more than just Lightweaving.

Also, why would Pattern bring up Shallan's second surge if it hadn't to do anything with what happened?

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't deny that, still the lie doesn't become truth. You are still afraid, there is just something you are more afraid of. Your fear isn't gone. Just suppressed.

Lets agree not to agree on this. I see it differently. You can overcome fear with internal pep-talk without fearing something else more. You just need to want something more than the thing or situation you are afraid of.

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Which Shallan isn't doing anymore. The constant switching and painting Shallan over Veil isn't conscious. You called it instinctively. Instincts are not conscious.

Shallan acts instinctively in a stressful situation. She quickly assumes the optimal persona in a rapid sequence of changing circumstances. She still realizes what she does though and is able to distinguish lies from truth in opposition to the earlier chapter where she questioned whether her conversations with her brothers were real or only a figment of her imagination. She paints "Shallan" over "Veil" and immediately questions herself for it. And I think she asks the right question, since I think the Shallan we have been shown is in fact not the real deal. It might be more similar to her illusions than her true self. We have not seen much of the person who was able to poison and suffocate her father. She did it to defend herself and the rest of her family, but it was in fact a premediated murder. This is not Shallan, the scholar and artist. The optical illusion over Veil is not the problem I see, but the transformation of her mindset.

And this is the path she should go further, to explore what different personality traits she has and does suppress.

20 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You see something magical exceeding real processes, I don't.

Optical illusions accompanied by a drastic change of personality going with enhanced skillsets, I think that is not possible in real life. And I don't think it's only the optical illusion that is supernatural.

[bo.montier]

12 hours ago, Rasha said:

If it is not too touchy a subject, could you elaborate on that point ? Of course you are free to tell me to storm off with my (very) unpolite request, but I am curious. I had some thoughts in the past, but managed to get rid of them, hopefully permanently.

 

You are quite alright in your request. I wouldn't have spoken on it at all if I wasn't willing to share (not that others have the same obligation)
I have dealt with depression for most of my adult life (31 years old now) and until about 5 years ago I didn't realize what was happening. I just was super unsatisfied and constantly tried to dull the ache with alcohol. Eventually my unhappiness combined with my drinking led me down a path where I had a one night stand, cheating on my wife of 6 years (we got married when we were 19). 

In the aftermath of that I got to the point where I dreaded the pain I'd been through, and, much more, the pain I put her through. If I had not believed I was truly forgiven, and that I could heal and become a better person, I would have killed myself. If I might go through that again I would rather be dead, was the belief at the time. It was only through the grace my wife showed me, and the encouragement of scripture and the church, I don't think I would have made it. Fortunately our marriage was repaired and we are about to celebrate our 12th anniversary. I love that woman more than I could ever express, and am more grateful for her empathy and forgiveness than I can even understand in my own mind.

I've since learned how to recognize the early warning signs of depression and know better how to deal with it. I have practiced Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and use that to deal with negative thoughts. I also work out MUCH more consistently, which definitely helps. Finally, over the last 6 months I've been learning how my diet could have played into my depression. Micro-biome issues are a big deal and probably (The science is still looking into this right now) play significantly into many mental illnesses, including depression. 
I'm hopeful that I won't have any more big bouts of depression due to these changes, but it's always there, a shadow looming. I choose to focus on the progress I've made, rather than the fear I might go through all that again.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Also, why would Pattern bring up Shallan's second surge if it hadn't to do anything with what happened?

Because he doesn't understand the concept of leadership skills and morale talk. He just saw the deserters "transform" and assumed Shallan used transformation. That she persuaded the deserters probably added to his confusion, because that is the same way how Soulcasting works. You persuade the Cognitive aspect of a thing to turn into something else and then Invest it.

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Because he doesn't understand the concept of leadership skills and morale talk. He just saw the deserters "transform" and assumed Shallan used transformation. That she persuaded the deserters probably added to his confusion, because that is the same way how Soulcasting works. You persuade the Cognitive aspect of a thing to turn into something else and then Invest it.

I think, though, that if you consider how much influence on the physical realm there is by the cognitive realm, that there may still be something there. I wonder if Lightweavers might end up being much better at influencing behavior than the other orders because they somehow use Transformation to help make subtle shifts in a person's cognitive essence...

Please note, I also might have no idea how this works :-)

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I wonder if Lightweavers might end up being much better at influencing behavior than the other orders because they somehow use Transformation to help make subtle shifts in a person's cognitive essence...

I don't think so. I see it rather, because they can use Illumination to change their appearance and exploit societal norms, e.g. soldiers, even deserters, looking for leadership, looking up to nobles. They can create perfect disguises, which, of course, influences humans. Some more than others, but it does.

Edited November 3, 2017 by SLNC

[Blacksmithki]

Just now, SLNC said:

No, because they can use Illumination to change their appearance and exploit societal norms, e.g. soldiers, even deserters, looking for leadership, looking up to nobles. They can create perfect disguises, which, of course, influences humans. Some more than others, but it does.

I think he was suggesting on top of that using minor soulcasting, not exclusively soulcasting to convince.

[Guest]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

I think he was suggesting on top of that using minor soulcasting, not exclusively soulcasting to convince.

I know what he was suggesting, but we have no evidence, that Transformation can even work that way. The quote can be interpreted that way, but Pattern often has shown, that he doesn't really understand concepts of human interaction, which is why I think he was just confused by what happened.

[Blacksmithki]

Just now, SLNC said:

I know what he was suggesting, but we have no evidence, that Transformation can even work that way. The quote can be interpreted that way, but Pattern often has shown, that he doesn't really understand concepts of human interaction, which is why I think he was just confused by what happened.

I agree, just the way you worded it (no.) implied that it was a fact that that was not the case and I'm clarifying.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Blacksmithki said:

I agree, just the way you worded it (no.) implied that it was a fact that that was not the case and I'm clarifying.

You're right. Corrected the wording... I'm just getting a bit tired of repeating myself.

[bo.montier]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I know what he was suggesting, but we have no evidence, that Transformation can even work that way. The quote can be interpreted that way, but Pattern often has shown, that he doesn't really understand concepts of human interaction, which is why I think he was just confused by what happened.

I would say that Pattern's response is very minor evidence that Transformation can work that way. In no way, shape, or form definitive, but I'm leaving the possibility open in my mind due to his response.

[Blacksmithki]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You're right. Corrected the wording... I'm just getting a bit tired of repeating myself.

Hah, don't worry about everything, plenty of other people are willing to correct people though we tend to be slower so you can leave it to others.

[Pattern he/him]

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

I know what he was suggesting, but we have no evidence, that Transformation can even work that way. The quote can be interpreted that way, but Pattern often has shown, that he doesn't really understand concepts of human interaction, which is why I think he was just confused by what happened.

I am quite late, meanwhile I had to get a car from a garage.

I think Pattern hints at things Shallan is able to do without telling too much, compare to Wyndle who is a bit less subtle. When it comes to Surges and Investiture, spren seem to be the most reliable inworld source of information. Of course you can dismiss it as unconfirmed, since most spren are in a reduced state of sapience, but in my opinion it is foreshadowing of what will be possible. As a comparison from SA, Kaladin's early surges of strenght could also be explained by an adrenaline rush. Now we can be quite certain that it was inhaling Stormlight from nearby spheres all the time (indicated by mysteriouly drained spheres). Considering that Lightweavers are subtle and secretive, foreshadowing has to be even more subtle.

We know that Forging is able to do exactly those changes in things and persons as we see Shallan do. Many cosmere magic systems mimic each other and enable similar things with slightly varied mechanics. It is no big leap to infer that Soulcasting - or more precisely the surge of Transformation - is able to change more than the state of matter.

Edit: I just finished reading the rest of the thread and I saw you diagnosing Shallan with DID. The rapid switching could be explained by that, the concious transformations with creating an image and then becoming the persona seems too well timed to be caused by a disorder and too coordinated to have the right persona triggered by creating the image. Also, I would not see artist/scholar Shallan as the host. I think that is what Pattern refers to in an earlier chapter when he says "This is not the lie". In my opinion, the lie is that artist/scholar Shallan is seen as the true personality. I predict that somewhen Shallan will come to the conclusion that all her personas (including the host) are part of her identity.

So I still theorize on Shallan using both Illumination and Transformation when she becoms Veil or Radiant -

Spoiler

analogous to what Shae does in The Emperor's Soul with Soulstamps.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Pattern
Addition after reading the whole thread

[kari-no-sugata]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

I also read that scene as if Shallan drew her face over Veil's face instinctively. And this is not so far from the truth, since the Shallan we see is just another persona she assumes.

But I really read progress for Shallan in these chapters. She realizes that she is none of her personas but all her personas are her. She also switches institively between her personas as she needs them and she is again able to create illusions from lost drawings as she did while telling the story about the Girl who looked up.

Also, bluffing one of the Unmade seems quite an achievement to me as the acknowledging that she is someone who lies and will continue to do so forever. This might be the core of her personality. Shallan lies to herself and the world around her to achieve what she thinks she has to. We can like this or not, we can see this as unhealthy behaviour or just as a quirk, but it is what Shallan is. This realization I see as the major progress for Shallan in these awsome chapters.

I know there's been a lot of follow-up discussion here but I wanted to comment a little bit on this...

Often with Shallan it's hard to tell whether to take something as positive or negative (this happens with other characters too of course, but Shallan is particularly tricky). The case in chapter 29 where she effectively treats Shallan as a persona is yet another example. I wouldn't say this is the first time she's considered "Shallan" to be more of a persona or the like but she does seem to be actively treating it as a persona to adopt for the first time... though the passage reads somewhat strangely:

Quote

Shallan kept her word. She was drawn toward that blackness, but she wasn’t stupid. Well, mostly not stupid. She waited, transfixed by the pit, until she heard voices from the hallway behind her. He can’t see me in Veil’s clothing! she thought, and started to reawaken. How long had she been kneeling there?

She took off Veil’s hat and long white coat, then hid them behind the debris. Stormlight enfolded her, painting the image of a havah over her trousers, gloved hand, and tight buttoned shirt.

Shallan. She was Shallan again—innocent, lively Shallan. Quick with a quip, even when nobody wanted to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes over-eager. She could be that person.

That’s you, a part of her cried as she adopted the persona. That’s the real you. Isn’t it? Why do you have to paint that face over another?

The strange thing about this is that while she's wearing Veil's clothing here, at no point does she consider herself to be something other than Shallan. She was Radiant just before this. Is this "Shallan kept her word" a typo and it's supposed to be "Radiant kept her word"? Or is the important bit the "started to reawaken" part? If so, what was going on here? It feels like there's a time jump like in WoR when Shallan thought of her mother and her mind went blank, but it's still confusing. What is she at this point if she's not Shallan?

Anyway, adopting Shallan as a persona feels like a mistake (or is it?) and effectively "Shallan" pushes back / complains. So, what will she do in future? Will she continue to treat Shallan like a persona or will she realise that Shallan is the "real" one and not try again? So, this could be taken either way and what's important is what she does afterwards.

Looking ahead to the rest of OB (or possibly future books)...

I have suggested before the Shallan could likely face Re-Shephir again by the end of the book and this time it would probably be much more serious. I don't know if Re-Shephir could be killed by Shallan alone but since she was imprisoned in the past that at least could happen again. So how could that be either be achieved?

We saw in the case of Dalinar's vision of the Recreance that it's possible to actively/knowingly break an Oath with a spren (otherwise, how could several hundred people do what they did at the same time?). So, consider the following - Shallan deliberately allows herself to bond Re-Shephir (by swearing a Voidbinding Oath?) and then breaks the bond. However, I doubt such a thing would be zero-cost. For example, the stronger the bond, the stronger the cost to break it, probably. I'd think it's likely that Re-Shephir is much stronger than an average Radiant spren so perhaps doing this is either impossible or exceedingly painful.

Another theoretical possibility is to bond Re-Shephir as before then have someone else kill Shallan with a Shardblade. Since a Shardblade cuts the soul this seems likely to work (with a rather obvious cost). If this doesn't kill Re-Shephir it would likely weaken her significantly (it would depend on the strength of the bond I guess).

The final possibility that I thought of is that Shallan could splinter her soul (or something like that) by creating a very strong persona, and then have that persona bond Re-Shephir. Shallan could perhaps then trap Re-Shephir by Soulcasting/Transforming that splinter. Perhaps that's how the ancient Lightweaver trapped Re-Shephir? (I wouldn't be surprised if this ability with personas is a Lightweaver trait, though not necessarily a common one).