Unification of Roshar

[Gloom he/him]

It seems that Roshar needs to be united in order to survive the impending Desolation. We currently have two separate individuals who are attempting to accomplish this task that we are aware of.

 

Taravangian is the ruler of Kharbranth, a small city-state renowned for it's hospitals and the Palanaeum. He has thus far attempted to achieve the goal of unifying Roshar through assassination and through trying to interpret the future by listening to the death chants of innocent people he murders. To date he has eliminated close to twenty world leaders through assassination and murdered a large number of innocent civilians who were under his care. We have seen no indication that other plans are in motion to stabilize the nations affected as yet, though to be fair those plans have been eluded to. Taravangian appears to only be worried about eliminating any possible rival leaders thus far. Taravangian appears to be aware of the efforts of the second person attempting a unification at a smaller level and chose to order the assassination of Dalinar Kholin rather than make any effort to work with him.

 

Dalinar Kholin is High Prince of War, uncle to King Elhokar of Alethkar. He is attempting to unify one of the most powerful nations on Roshar through politicking and an iron fist. He has prophetic dreams that appear to have been sent to him by a being he believes to be a god called Honor. Honor is dead and Dalinar is aware of this as well. Dalinar began his efforts to unite his fellow High Princes through political maneuvering and encouraging them to work together in concert against the current common foe of the Alethi people. This strategy failed dramatically at the plateau called The Tower when High Prince Sadeas deftly outmaneuvered Dalinar and stranded him along with his heir and a large portion of his men surrounded and cut off from retreat. It was only through the actions and rebellion of bridge four and it's leader Kaladin Stormblessed that Dalinar was capable of retreating and salvaging a quarter of the forces he had brought to battle. Having recognized the futility of trying to coerce his fellow High Princes to work together voluntarily, Dalinar has forcefully bent his nephew to his will with the goal of finally unifying his nation under the rule of the king.

 

It has been postulated that the methods of these men are, for all intents and purposes, little different. That by using the war that Dalinar seeks to end as an excuse for unifying his people, Dalinar is no better than the man who murders the sickly and feeble in their beds and orders world leaders assassinated so he can unite the world under his own banner.

 

I would postulate that the difference between these men is immense. That Dalinar seeks to unite his nation to enable its survival. He doesn't seek power for himself, but takes what power he needs to accomplish his goals. He wants to see his people become more than they are, and he wants this for his people. Taravangian on the other hand seeks to unite the world under his rule, for his own personal glory and to ensure his own survival. He has no compunction about murdering innocent people and removing any obstacle from his path.

 

What do you think?

[Moogle]

Ooh, a nice thread to start going crazy on. I will attempt to keep it brief however to avoid spending hours on essays. (Edit: I write this after finishing the post. It was not brief. Sorry. I intended to start with just saying that Taravangian was so old that there's no way he was doing it for his own survival, but then it spiraled out of control when I figured I may as well put my whole position on the line to be argued.)

 

Taravangian is the ruler of Kharbranth, a small city-state renowned for it's hospitals and the Palanaeum.

...

Taravangian on the other hand seeks to unite the world under his rule, for his own personal glory and to ensure his own survival. He has no compunction about murdering innocent people and removing any obstacle from his path.

 

Taravangian is an old man. He has been king for quite some time. He's spent only the last ~5 years working on stopping the Desolation by taking the terminally ill and killing them quickly.

 

For years, decades, he's funded and worked on making Kharbranth the world leader in healthcare. He provides free healthcare to everyone, darkeyed or lighteyed, in stark contrast to the Alethi, where Kaladin had to bribe surgeons to take care of his men, despite there being more surgeons than needed to deal with just the lighteyes. Taravangian kept Kharbranth from any and all wars, and was described by Jasnah as being a wise man who looked for peace. Shallan objected, saying that he was considered a coward and weak for not lusting for battle.

 

To say that Taravangian is concerned about his own survival is ridiculous. He's old, and he knows it. There is no way he would kill world leaders and cause suffering on such a wide scale if he were worried about giving himself three or four extra years or life.

 

Furthermore, to say that Taravangian is concerned about his own personal glory is completely at odds with what we know of the character. Taravangian is working from the shadows, his public reputation is that of a fool (and he encourages that reputation so no one will suspect what he is doing). If he were a proud man, he would be doing things much differently. He is clearly focused on the end goal of saving the world as opposed to his own personal gain.

 

Taravangian openly acknowledges that he will not be forgiven for his sins. He is haunted by what he does. He believes in Vorinism, even still. He is giving up his chance of having an honorable afterlife and sinning in order to save all of Roshar. This is an incredibly selfless act. He even notes this when he says "it is better for one man to sin than a people to be destroyed".

 

Taravangian's goals are quite obviously to save the world.

 

He kills innocents and ruthlessly removes obstacles from his path because that's the only way for him to accomplish his goals. Uniting a nation in a short timespan of a few months requires fast-thinking, knowledge normal men could not obtain, and a complete disregard for doing things the normal slow way. He has to be pragmatic.

 

Wherever possible, he attempts to minimize the pain. People are bled out by him, not killed painfully with burning pokers. The terminally ill (those would have died soon anyways, and likely in pain) are killed as opposed to healthy people. This turned out to be not enough, so he has been taking those in poor positions in life - the homeless who live sad lives of begging, those who people will never miss, and is using them.

 

These people would die anyways. The Voidbringers are coming. You can make all the arguments about journey before destination you want, but it is clear that it is possible for humanity to survive the upcoming Desolation, and while it would be preferable to do it slowly with nice honorable ways where no one gets hurt, that's simply not possible.

 

The methods Taravangian uses are not ideal, and it would be better if it didn't have to happen, but unfortunately life is not fair and the wrath of an elemental force of hatred is about to be unleashed on the world, killing everyone... unless something drastic changes.

 

Dalinar is attempting to unite one nation, and his methods are not working very well. His methods, I would also argue, cause unneeded killing. Unlike Taravangian, Dalinar really doesn't get much from the innocents he kills. Taravangian has to unite the world, not one nation.

 

I invite people to think of a better plan than Taravangian's, while keeping in mind that Jasnah, a scholar who is royalty herself and has considerable influence, failed to convince literally everyone in power she talked to that maybe the parshmen could be dangerous. Words alone will not convince anyone of anything, let alone that an apocalypse is coming and that everyone in a world filled with corrupt and distrustful leaders has to unite.

 

I am open to the possibility that Taravangian is not doing things as well as he could. However, he made all of his plans while being incredibly intelligent. Unless Brandon is playing the "smart is dumb" trope (which I despise), someone more intelligent than me, who has likely spent months thinking on things and looking through knowledge of the future, is likely to have planned things out far better than I could. We also don't know enough about Taravangian's plan to criticize it in detail. I am thus cautiously trusting that Taravangian has likely determined what the best course of action is.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[+Aletus he/him]

I agree Moogle, Dalinar has won the hearts and minds of the readers, I really enjoy reading his PoV's and quite like him - but I like him more for his blustering baddassery heaps and bounds over what he is doing to unite Alethkar - which is fundamentally the opposite of what Honor wanted of him, wasting time dealing with the HighPrinces when he should be doing what Taravangian is doing - in a more productive way.

 

Taravangian - and those (potentially Mr. Darkness, AKA agent smith) who are doing terrible things (like having Dalinar added to THE LIST) in order to PREVENT a coming desolation - are a little late IMO. Taln returned - as we saw in the final pages of WotK - which to me tells us that it's pretty much unavoidable at this moment, and in all likelihood - killing surgebinders will not hinder the coming Everstorm. 

 

Unfortunately - everyone is a little off of where they should be. They have, what, 60 some days - if we can presume that the countdown is towards the Everstorm. Providing that the Desolation comes from a single location - such as a Highstorm, which we have no proof of (iirc) - there is no time - even if EVERYONE dropped everything and focused towards providing a unified front. Simply sending messengers to the separate ruling bodies would take much of that time, to say nothing of mobilizing troops, and setting them to march. I'm of a mind that 60 some odd days is too short a time to do about anything aside from filling the pages with bickering highprinces.

 

What does that leave us with?

 

Either A) Roshar will remain divided and be forced into a continent wide (or possibly fairly localized) massive conflict with no preparation, against an enemy that is possibly bringing YOU, the reader, your tea or purple wine right now.  

 

Or B.) Something will actually prevent or more likely, delay the countdown. 

 

All of this is conditional on the countdown actually terminating with a desolation. 

Edited February 19, 2014 by Blackwood

[Kersplattle]

We don't really know what Taravangian's plan is and why sees the need to destroy the leadership of all but his own nation (I note he has not attempted to do anything about Shinovar). We assume it is so he can become King himself; it is an enormous conceit to imagine that you alone are capable of uniting the nations and to kill thousands (painlessly or otherwise, recall the Shin Sailor's words !) in the pursuit of it.

 

Also, this is a novel, it has its own morality in the novel, it is not particularly productive (just IMHO) to try to bring one's normative feelings of justice in the real world into it, although it is difficult to avoid that I agree. In the world scheme that Roshar exists and within Vorinism, the Alethi have an appointed place and that is to be the pre-eminent military fighting force in the world as they know it so they can provide the backbone of the military struggle against the desolations. That they are corrupted by the opposing forces to act in ways unbecoming is part of the plot. Dalinar though, has become moral, exceedingly so, by the standards of the society he is in.

 

In the world as Roshar is, I suggest that Taravangian is an unwitting agent of Odium, having been corrupted by hubris to act as a spolier to the struggle to organize against the desolation. He doesn't think that himself, he does believe in what he is doing, which is also a plot device of course, but I find him repellent.

[Moogle]

Or B.) Something will actually prevent or more likely, delay the countdown.

 

... Okay, this was pretty insightful. Have an upvote for that.

 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

--Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

 

I am an idiot. I should have realized this epigraph could mean a delay immediately in my last reread of TWoK.

 

I am very interested in this potential delay. It implies they will have to sacrifice something important, like honor or innocence, to manage it. I need to do a whole reread of TWoK immediately and look for hints.

 

We assume it is so he can become King himself; it is an enormous conceit to imagine that you alone are capable of uniting the nations and to kill thousands (painlessly or otherwise, recall the Shin Sailor's words !) in the pursuit of it.

 

It's arrogant, you could say, but I would argue that's not necessarily a bad thing. The point about arrogance being required to lead is made quite effectively in Hero of Ages, I think.

 

Taravangian has a massive advantage with his intelligence. We, the human race, have soft skin, blunt nails, are not very strong... and ultimately it is us that are flourishing while tigers and other well-honed killing machines are being driven to extinction. Intelligence is extremely powerful (though a good portion of it was humans banding together, too).

Edited February 19, 2014 by Moogle

[+Aletus he/him]

I literally just finished my reread and missed that. Good catch on the quote brotha's that theorize together, save the world together. 

[Gloom he/him]

No matter what your level of intelligence, you can't account for every variable. Kaladin is a great example of a variable that Taravangian is unlikely to have accounted for. It should also be noted that regardless of how intelligent Taravangian appears to be, or is portrayed to be he is pitting himself against a Shard. If the power of a Shard can increase his level of intelligence, couldn't a Shard also increase the intelligence of its holder? Wouldn't that intelligence be at least the equal of the intelligence of someone with such a boon?

 

I also find it amusing that you would claim that our gift of intelligence is why our race has become successful. I would agree that our ability to reason is a large part of our success, but by itself is inadequate to explain our continued existence on such a hostile world. I believe that other attributes are equally responsible for our dominance of this world. Compassion, bravery, ruthlessness, and our capacity for self sacrifice, to name a few, played no small part in our history and the history of our race.

 

I will agree that Taravangian is as merciful as possible to the victims he murders in cold blooded clinical detachment, but that doesn't change what he is. I will agree that Taravangian is probably trying to save the world, but that doesn't make him any less of a monster. The reality is these are all just justifications for crimes he is knowingly committing. He has been playing god for at least five years and is only now enacting his plan? Now, when the Everstorm is practically blowing down his door? Doesn't sound so smart to me.

 

Dalinar on the other hand has only been aware of the impending catastrophe for less than a month. He is scrambling to put things together as rapidly as possible to first, save his nation, then, save his world. I'll admit that Taravangian is looking at a larger picture, but for all his intelligence, how long did it take him to fully grasp that picture and move his plans forward? It took him years. Dalinar may be fumbling a bit here and there, but he is acting with far less foreknowledge. He has no choice but to act boldly and to grab hold of whatever power he can and turn it to his advantage. Dalinar has no knowledge of Taravangians plans, or that anyone else is even contemplating the impending storm.

[Arondell]

It's arrogant, you could say, but I would argue that's not necessarily a bad thing. The point about arrogance being required to lead is made quite effectively in Hero of Ages, I think.

 

Taravangian has a massive advantage with his intelligence. We, the human race, have soft skin, blunt nails, are not very strong... and ultimately it is us that are flourishing while tigers and other well-honed killing machines are being driven to extinction. Intelligence is extremely powerful (though a good portion of it was humans banding together, too).

 

Arrogance is only a bad thing when it blinds you to the potential contributions of others.  Which leads us back to Dalinar.  A brilliant battle field general who is getting a direct information feed into his mind about the threat to Roshare.  This probably gives him a better understanding then Taravangian of the full scope of the threat as well as the understanding for the need to unify...and Taravangian is trying to have him assassinated. 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Arondell

[Humph]

For argument's sake, let's take his actions at face value and say that Mr. T is deliberately seeking a condition of anarchy throughout Roshar.  The question to ask then would be:  What could be the foreseeable benefit to anarchy and weakness?  I can think of three options: 

• Option #1 -- Mr. T focus is for someone to emerge immediately holding unified power.
• Option #2 -- Mr. T is currently more concerned about encouraging potential tyrants / nefarious secret socieities to come out of the woodwork so that he can wipe them out, so he is encouraging anarchy and weakness in the hopes they will finally show themselves. A rope-a-dope strategy.  Once he cleans the Nasties out, then the issue of One to Rule Them All can be dealt with.
• Option #3 -- Mr. T actually wants the Desolation to come about unhindered, as he views the Desolation as the actual means for the survival of [his] people, or desireable in some other way, e.g. as the only means of ensuring that at least some will survive.  Better that 9 die and one live then all ten die sort of thing.

I'm sure that others could think of more options.

 

Option #1 would seem to be the most natural explanation.  Some have postulated that Mr. T has himself in mind as the candidate; however, I think there is an inherent weakness in saying that Taravagnian is attempting to set himself up to be ruler of Roshar.  He certainly is trying to tear down what is there.  But we don't see any political manuevering, any annexation of territory, any seizure of power.  (Yet .... don't know what surprises lay in waiting or course.)   So perhaps he seeks the opportunity for another individual or group (e.g. Ghostbloods or Church).

 

Option #2 would seem to be right up Mr. T's alley, as it still leaves open option #1 while having an added benefit.  While Mr. T might have personal sorrows and pains from his actions, he is singleminded and even ruthless in pursuing what he judges to be necessary.  I could see him trying to kill two birds with one stone here, not realizing that he simply does not have the time to do so.  Perhaps he is attempting to ferret out Odium's champion.

 

Option #3 can't be ruled out, but seems the most far-fetched.  There is a quote in the book something to the effect that the fate of the world might rest upon his intelligence and decisions.  If he has seen deeper into the situation than any others -- and it appears that he has spent at least two years pondering all this -- then it is possible he has a lot more understanding of the gravity/non-gravity of the situation, or how best to handle it (war vs. passive enduring of suffering).  Another option would be that he actively desires it as a good thing (agent of Odium thesis).

[+Aletus he/him]

It's not impossible that he is setting Elhokar up to be some sort of Grand Emperor - which maaaay explain his needing to get rid of Dalinar as he fears a threat to the throne, where there is none. Stretch armstrong here, but I could see it. 

[Moogle]

Arrogance is only a bad thing when it blinds you to the potential contributions of others.  Which leads us back to Dalinar.  A brilliant battle field general who is getting a direct information feed into his mind about the threat to Roshare.  This probably gives him a better understanding then Taravangian of the full scope of the threat as will as the understanding for the need to unify...and Taravangian is trying to have him assassinated. 

 

Likely because Taravangian doesn't know that Dalinar has a direct connection to Honor and has no possible way of predicting anyone does. Dalinar has not exactly been quick to speak up about it.

 

Dalinar has a reputation as the Blackthorn, a fearsome warlord which conquered Alethkar with his brother through the use of assassins. Expecting Taravangian to know that Dalinar has turned over a new leaf is a bit much, I think.

 

 

No matter what your level of intelligence, you can't account for every variable. Kaladin is a great example of a variable that Taravangian is unlikely to have accounted for. It should also be noted that regardless of how intelligent Taravangian appears to be, or is portrayed to be he is pitting himself against a Shard. If the power of a Shard can increase his level of intelligence, couldn't a Shard also increase the intelligence of its holder? Wouldn't that intelligence be at least the equal of the intelligence of someone with such a boon?

 

Likely, yes. Odium, however, is limited by the Oathpact. Taravangian is not similarly limited. Unfortunately, we don't know just how much Odium is limited. It doesn't matter terribly, I think. Past a certain point, intelligence only gets you so far. If Roshar is 100% united and there's a thousand men for each Voidbringer, and they are all armed and ready for the Voidbringers, there's not much Odium can do no matter his intelligence. It seems he was limited, before, to just using Voidbringers and other troops.

 

With Honor Splintered and Cultivation apathetic, one questions why Odium has not just used his power to destroy Roshar. Taln is still holding on to the Oathpact, I think.

 

 

I also find it amusing that you would claim that our gift of intelligence is why our race has become successful. I would agree that our ability to reason is a large part of our success, but by itself is inadequate to explain our continued existence on such a hostile world. I believe that other attributes are equally responsible for our dominance of this world. Compassion, bravery, ruthlessness, and our capacity for self sacrifice, to name a few, played no small part in our history and the history of our race.

 

As I said, our social bonds were important too. However, I think it is hard to deny that the usage of tools (which were created through intelligence) is the most important factor for why humanity has risen so far. Without them, we could not kill wolves attacking us. Without them, we could not farm effectively. Compassion and whatnot helped us form tribes and that also contributed to our success though, I agree.

 

 

He has been playing god for at least five years and is only now enacting his plan? Now, when the Everstorm is practically blowing down his door? Doesn't sound so smart to me.

 

What makes you think he's only now enacting his plan? We don't know anything about his activities beyond that he's gathered information from dead people and is assassinating world leaders. It's frustrating. It's possible he spent the last five years putting people loyal to him in a position to grab power. We don't know, so how can we possibly judge whether it was smart or not to wait? As Blackwood brought up, it's likely there's going to be a delay before the Desolation seriously starts, too. Taravangian may know the exact timeline of what's going to happen.

 

I think Taravangian agrees with you that he's a monster - but then, The Lord Ruler was also a monster, and his actions directly saved the world. 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[+Aletus he/him]

This whole thing brings to mind that little pre-deathmatch chat Obi-Wan had with Anakin. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" which is an absolute statement. Check and mate. 

 

It's all point of view, but at the same time, I really doubt Taravangian is going to end up being the Verin here, and have the right answer. He may be on the brutal, bloody right path in his mind, but to me - there's another way. 

[Gloom he/him]

 

With Honor Splintered and Cultivation apathetic, one questions why Odium has not just used his power to destroy Roshar. Taln is still holding on to the Oathpact, I think.

 

If the Oath Pact had been shattered, Taln would have been spit out or killed long ago. The fact that Taln appeared at the very cusp of the impending Everstorm is proof enough that the Oathpact still has some power.

 

 

We don't know anything about his activities beyond that he's gathered information from dead people and is assassinating world leaders.

 

And this is why I find your stubborn defense of Taravangian so frustrating.

[Moogle]

And this is why I find your stubborn defense of Taravangian so frustrating.

 

I know you said it with a smiley, but I still feel the need to apologize. I think I should, perhaps, avoid these sorts of threads since I'm coming across as stubborn. I'd like to come across as more open and willing to change my mind. And I keep derailing threads, which isn't nice either.

 

I guess you could say that I defend Taravangian because I believe he is the only one with the power, desire, and skill to defend Roshar. He makes people uncomfortable (heck, he makes me uncomfortable), but that's ultimately an emotional response and what is needed is a more dispassionate view when important things are on the line.

 

You shouldn't buy/sell stocks when you're feeling emotional, you shouldn't make plans with universe-wide implications when emotional either.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

Unless you're in an epic fantasy. Then the Power of Friendship will guide you!

[Moogle]

Unless you're in an epic fantasy. Then the Power of Friendship will guide you!

 

Except when you're attempting to save the world by throwing a priceless artifact into a volcano. Then it's greed and insanity that saves you.

 

It is interesting that Roshar has a sort of 'act honorably and you get power' thing going on. It messes up the normal rules for action a little. However, it seems that the more Radiants there are, the stronger the Voidbringers get. It's rather 'fair' in that regard.

 

Edit: OH SO THAT'S WHY DARKNESS IS KILLING THEM I mean yeah I thought they brought Desolations but I didn't connect it to there probably being a very specific clause in the Oathpact saying that Odium had to limit himself to only attacking with an army as powerful as the one he was up against.

 

Edit2: I think I may have been unclear in the connection I was making - Kalak remarks that Odium is "growing more tenacious" with each Desolation, as they get more Radiants and train them better. I extrapolated this to mean that Odium probably had to be 'fair' in his attacks. If there's no Surgebinders, he probably can't attack at all! You know what, this probably deserves its own thread.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

Of course, the whole "act honourably thing and you get power" might actually reward those who make stupid yet honourable descions with the ability to blow things up in a multitude of ways better, but enough other weapons and also the good old "I don't need weapons cause I'm not stupid enough to end up where I'll need them" balance that out.
Basically, any evil genius on Roshar should be very genre savvy.

 

Edit: Of course, with fabrial science coming into play, the next desolation might have an extra edge to the humans...or it might be the excuse Odium needs to go all out this time.

Edited February 20, 2014 by WeiryWriter
please don't double post

[Gloom he/him]

Oh, I know your only half serious and half playing devils advocate. If I thought you were really serious about your everything you said in these two threads, I would certainly do my best to avoid running into you in a well lit shopping mall, let alone a dark alley.

 

I understand where your coming from and I can see your point to an extent. It is important to be able to step back and look at the big picture rather than getting caught up in events. My primary issue with Taravangian is that he has no boundaries at all. He takes the most direct route possible to get his results even when taking a slightly longer path could potentially be more beneficial to him. He is too willing to sacrifice others to attain his own ends. It is his flaw. I don't know if this is born from his visit to the Nightwatcher, or whether he was always flawed in this way, but the flaw exists and is extremely debilitating to his big picture.

[DefiantBurrito]

 

 

someone more intelligent than me, who has likely spent months thinking on things and looking through knowledge of the future, is likely to have planned things out far better than I could. We also don't know enough about Taravangian's plan to criticize it in detail. I am thus cautiously trusting that Taravangian has likely determined what the best course of action is.

 

I just want to challenge this a little bit.  I don't think his intelligence alone is reason enough to have faith in his actions.

 

My interpretation of Taravangian's intelligence is that he is (sometimes) very mentally capable and intelligent in the sense of sorting through lots of facts/information quickly, planning, solving math problems, riddles, etc.  HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he is mentally perfect or infallible.

 

For example, it's possible he has a flawed personality in some way.  He could be blinded by ego, or he could have a streak of cruelty that even he himself is unaware of, or he could just be hasty/rushes to judgement.  (I don't think we're familiar enough with Taravangian yet to really know his personality, so I'm just speculating here.)  Intelligent people are just as likely to have "blind spots" and rationalize things to suit their emotional desires or egos as anyone else.

 

So, I think it's possible that Taravangian made an unjustified logical leap from "hey Desolations are bad" to "hey I should kill lots of people" based on some character flaw, or just some bad initial assumptions.  I don't think that's a "smart is dumb" trope at all, it's perfectly reasonable in my mind that an intelligent person could still be wrong.

[Moogle]

So, I think it's possible that Taravangian made an unjustified logical leap from "hey Desolations are bad" to "hey I should kill lots of people" based on some character flaw, or just some bad initial assumptions.  I don't think that's a "smart is dumb" trope at all, it's perfectly reasonable in my mind that an intelligent person could still be wrong.

 

While I admit it's possible, surely you'd admit that, given he obviously feels guilty about the whole thing, he would think things through very carefully before doing something that will haunt his conscience like that?

 

I also think that, given our short PoV inside his mind, that he doesn't seem particularly egotistical or sadistic-but-unaware-of-it. It's plausible that we're missing something, but I think the evidence points more in the direction that Taravangian is mentally sound and free of any huge character flaws that are likely to lead to the failure of his plan.

[The Count he/him]

This is an interesting topic and I think most people (including myself) are drawn to Dalinar as a character because he is both a certified badass and deeply interesting character.

 

In contrast we know very little about Taravangian.

 

I would like to add a few things in to the mix here:

 

1/ Taravangian

 

We do not know what Taravangian knows or has figured out. Nor do we know who he is working with. We cannot see his endgame for unification so cannot put his assassinations into any meaningful context beyond 'to save the world'.

 

If Taravangian is only working off the Death Rattles, then there is a good chance he has mad some errors in his judgement somewhere (like the timescale for the Desolation for example) and his actions may be flawed in some way.

 

If he is in contact with a Herald then he may have significantly more knowledge but may be subject to the word of someone driven insane by thousands of years of guilt.

 

Either way, it is likely that Taravangian is mistaken in some aspect of his thinking or approach.

 

2/ Dalinar

 

Dalinar is basically a religious zealot. His whole justification for his actions is 'God told me'.

 

I think there is a high likelihood that Dalinar is being used in some way.

 

Maybe the visions are false? Maybe the visions are real but they leave hin vulnerable to other influences as well.

 

In short... I fear false messengers!

 

3/ Narrative considerations

 

I think, narratively, in tWoK we are presented Dalinar and Taravangian as embodiments of the 'Journey before destination' philosophy which is so essential to the book.

 

Taravangian is ends justify the means (i.e. the counterpoint). Dalinar is means matter just as much (i.e. the embodiment).

 

Now that this philosophy is well established as a path to Honor and the KR powers. I think we will see that both men's actual approaches to unification and saving the world are flawed (maybe necessarily so).

 

As has been said, Dalinar is perpetrating a  war to achieve his ends. Hardly in line with his stated philosophy.

 

Taravangian seems to be playing the long game when time is of the essence. His actions ultimately may mean more chaos when the desolation begins (in 60 days??). plus his actions are certainly depicted (and noted by himself) as being deplorable and not honourable.

 

My opinion is that SA is going to turn out that nobody is right and that there is no right way to go about things. A world where power comes from purity of actions, but a setting where those same actions may lead to destruction of the world?

 

Now THAT is what I call narrative conflict.

Edited February 20, 2014 by The Count

[Swimmingly he/him]

I guess redefining the meaning of "the right thing" is going to be a BIG part of the series, isn't it...

[+Aletus he/him]

Quite honestly, I'm not sure Dalinar is a zealot anymore. He quite obviously started out that way, but in my mind he is becoming more and more like Jasnah - In our world, someone is considered overly zealous for standing blindly by their faith, regardless of other factors. I definitely do not want to throw this topic into a real world religious debate, but I will make this point - when a group of scientists created replicating, functioning, multi-cellular organisms from inanimate chemicals - (they touted it as creating life from nothing) and the Vatican came back with "only God can create life," - it was a zealous statement, regardless of conditions. 

 

Jasnah's heresy comes from her willingness to adapt science and faith differently, which in the setting of the books - is quite ahead of the religions of the time. Our own religious institutions are just now grappling with the possibility that science and faith can coexist. 

 

(Please, try and refrain from attacking me for that - was not intended as an assault on the faithful readers and posters)

 

Aside from that, something that personally throws me for a loop with Taravangian, is that while he is going about his tasks in an unsettling fashion, he doesn't make me uncomfortable.

 

Without spoiling things from Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Kingkiller, here's a tagged example:

Dumai's wells, Rand nearly killing Min, the shiver I got from reading the line "Forgive me, for calling this mercy as well" - Richard's brutal Rape scenes in Wizard's First Rule, and the switch between him and his love in the tent scene, as well as the feeling of Kvothe abandoning Auri for whatever reason in Kingkiller

 

All of those examples gave me pause, some more serious than others. I sat down Wizard's first rule for a week, it was that uncomfortable to read. Taravangian doesn't illicit that response from me, even a little.

 

It may not have any implication towards the book at all, but to me - it is important.  

[junior]

Dalinar has a reputation as the Blackthorn, a fearsome warlord which conquered Alethkar with his brother through the use of assassins. Expecting Taravangian to know that Dalinar has turned over a new leaf is a bit much, I think. 

 

Except...

 

Lately word through the warcamps has been that Dalinar's gone soft.  Even accepting that the rumors aren't exactly true, it's clear that Dalinar's not the person he once was.  If T's information network is good enough to know that Dalinar plans even before the official announcement is made, then it seems highly unlikely that he wouldn't also have a good read of Dalinar's shift in personality.

[Moogle]

If T's information network is good enough to know that Dalinar plans even before the official announcement is made

 

We don't know when the scene with Szeth and Taravangian happened. It could have happened after Dalinar makes his proclamation in Words of Radiance for all we know.

 

I could be wrong, though?

 

In any case, even if Taravangian was aware of the rumors, it should become clear that the rumors are 'wrong' and Dalinar is still the Blackthorn based on the new rumors about him breaking the King's Shardplate and taking power over, and also the fact that he's demanding they kill all the Parshendi and start the war back up in earnest. Consider his proclamation:

 

“Under the authority of the king,” she said, “Dalinar Kholin, Highprince of War, hereby orders changes to the manner of collection and distribution of gemhearts on the Shattered Plains. Henceforth, each gemheart will be collected in turn by two highprinces working in tandem. The spoils become the property of the king, who will determine—based on the effectiveness of the parties involved and their alacrity to obey—their share.

“A prescribed rotation will detail which highprinces and armies are re84 sponsible for hunting gemhearts, and in what order. The pairings will not always be the same, and will be judged based on strategic compatibility. It is expected that by the Codes we all hold dear, the men and women of these armies will welcome this renewed focus on victory and, at long last, vengeance.”

 

Dalinar's words and actions are not those of a man of peace, in the public view. Any rumors of him being weak, I think, should be proven 'wrong' around now. I think Taravangian can be excused for having the wrong idea, if he does. Honor commanded Dalinar to build a fortress of strength and peace, something Dalinar has so far ignored.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle