Unification of Roshar

[Guest Shash]

"Life before Death. Strength before Weakness. Journey before Destination."

I believe that Dalinar is a metaphor for "Journey before Destination" and concepts such as Individual Rights vs. The Greater Good will be explored through his actions and decisions, and that Dalinar will decide that the end does not justify the means.

I believe that Taravangian is a metaphor for, "Life before Death." and the same concepts will be explored through his actions and decisions, and that Taravangian firmly believes that yes, the end justifies the means.

Personally I think they are both on the same path, though they each started at different beginnings. Specifically, Taravangian will have to learn that even though, to him, the end justifies the means, that doesn't mean that the means are irrelevant. I fully expect him to continue his experiments, but perhaps find a less morally questionable means while remaining just as effective. Dalinar, on the other hand, already seems to be learning that the means to an end are important, but that adjustments must be made or else his efforts will be futile. I predict that both characters will eventually find the correct balance.

And let's not forget Kaladin! He is clearly the embodiment of, "Strength before Weakness." and is also somewhat a mix of Dalinar and Taravangian. Dalinar is a Warlord, Taravangian is a Healer, and Kaladin is proficient at both. That proficiency, combined with, "Strength before Weakness", leads me to suspect that Kaladin will heavily influence both Dalinar and Taravangian, and that all three will ultimately influence each other to be more balanced embodiments of the First Ideal.

As far as reactions to Dalinar vs Taravangian's methods, I couldn't possibly be more torn. On the one hand, I believe that the concept of The Greater Good is the most sublime, sinister evil to have ever entered the minds of men, while the concept of Individual Sovereignty is the most nobel ideal to have ever entered the hearts of men. On the other hand, having fought in two, I despise war. It's the only racket where victories are measured in dollars and losses are measured in lives. The vast, vast majority of casualties in war are soldiers; young men being manipulated by their young, underdeveloped sense of honor and glory by older, cynical men who are only waging war for monetary profit - profits which, by the way, the young men fighting the war will never see. If I were an Alethi, I would be patriotic but not stupid. The King being assassinated, to me, is not a good enough reason for me to wage war and probably lose my life. Foolishness.

In conclusion, I both admire and dislike Dalinar and Taravangian, though Dalinar comes out on top mostly because of his genuine concern for the men under his command. Unlike most generals, he views his soldiers as people before he views them as resources.

Edit: Spelling.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Shash

[Moogle]

I believe that Taravangian is a metaphor for, "Life before Death." and the same concepts will be explored through his actions and decisions, and that Taravangian firmly believes that yes, the end justifies the means.

 

This is an interesting way of looking at the First Ideal. I'm not certain how I feel about this (there's quite a few ways to interpret it, I think), but your post was thoughtful and I hadn't seen things that way before.

 

I have a minor quibble with this:

I fully expect him to continue his experiments, but perhaps find a less morally questionable means while remaining just as effective.

 

I believe that if there was a way for Taravangian to be just as effective with the death whispers without being as morally questionable, he'd be doing it. He doesn't seem to like what he's doing, he just feels that it is necessary.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[CodeMnke she/her]

 

I have a minor quibble with this:

 

I believe that if there was a way for Taravangian to be just as effective with the death whispers without being as morally questionable, he'd be doing it. He doesn't seem to like what he's doing, he just feels that it is necessary.

 

True, but that does not rule out the possibility that something new could be found. Regardless of how smart he is (even on his best day) he does not know everything (otherwise he would not NEED the death chants information!)

[Guest Shash]

I have a minor quibble with this:

I believe that if there was a way for Taravangian to be just as effective with the death whispers without being as morally questionable, he'd be doing it. He doesn't seem to like what he's doing, he just feels that it is necessary.

Well, Taravangian has been doing his thing before we, as readers, were introduced to the story. Perhaps he already had that revelation and his current actions are an improvement on older, outdated methods he may have employed. In fact, that's good motivation for him to have sought out the Old Magic and his current boon/curse. Perhaps he desired the intelligence/wisdom to make the most ideal decisions.

[+Aletus he/him]

Is there a somewhat decent timeline for the book anywhere? 

 

Even if Mr. T had been doing his bloodletting experiments from day one, as to say, about a year (iirc) or so before Gavilar was killed, when they first met the Parshendi, presuming (and it's a big assumption) that Szeth has been his most direct action other than the bleeding and collecting of death words, he only recently started doing that. (recently in the scope of things, I still feel like people manage to travel around Roshar unrealistically quick, but that could just be my perception of time being off) 

 

If preventing a desolation is Mr. T's end goal, a unified front wouldn't really do any good there, so presumably, his having Szeth kill all of these rulers is for a separate agenda. Honestly, out of him, Dalinar, and Darkness, Taravangian's methods seem the least productive or effective. 

 

(Also, maybe I missed something there, feel free to poke holes in that)

[Guest Shash]

Is there a somewhat decent timeline for the book anywhere?

Even if Mr. T had been doing his bloodletting experiments from day one, as to say, about a year (iirc) or so before Gavilar was killed, when they first met the Parshendi, presuming (and it's a big assumption) that Szeth has been his most direct action other than the bleeding and collecting of death words, he only recently started doing that. (recently in the scope of things, I still feel like people manage to travel around Roshar unrealistically quick, but that could just be my perception of time being off)

If preventing a desolation is Mr. T's end goal, a unified front wouldn't really do any good there, so presumably, his having Szeth kill all of these rulers is for a separate agenda. Honestly, out of him, Dalinar, and Darkness, Taravangian's methods seem the least productive or effective.

(Also, maybe I missed something there, feel free to poke holes in that)

Actually, you alluded to something that I, at least, am guilty of: taking it for granted that Dalinar and Taravangian are working towards the same goal with different methods. And, if you generalize, they are - they're doing what they believe is best for Roshar. However, I think Dalinar is preparing to fight and survive when the Desolation comes, and Taravangian's goal is to delay, probably indefinitely if he can, the Desolation from happening.

So maybe their ultimate goals are the same, the good of Roshar, but their penultimate goals, dealing with the Desolation, are different. In fact, they compliment one another. Taravangian's delays will allow Dalinar enough time for preparation. Unfortunately, Taravangian isn't tying to delay the Desolation for Dalinar to deal with, he's out to delay it indefinitely or prevent it altogether if possible.

There may be some flaws with that, but I really do think the two of them, though superficially opposed in method, will compliment each others methods enough that one could not succeed without the other.

[+Aletus he/him]

Oh, I probably just blundered in conveying my point. I completely agree that they are going about two opposite things. Dalinar is working to unite the nations, although is only really working on uniting the HighPrinces, which is a horrible error IMHO. 

 

Taravangian is trying to prevent it, much like Darkness. However - Taravangian is also killing off monarchs and high people the world over for some silly reason, which I can only see as a side-agenda, because - as I said - unification wouldn't be important to Taravangian, if simply preventing the desolation was his true and ultimate goal. 

[Moogle]

Taravangian does not seem to be interested in only delaying. If he was, he wouldn't be bothering with a plan to "build strong walls". Here's his explanation to Szeth:

“Why?” Szeth asked, voice hoarse. “Vengeance?”

“No.” Taravangian sounded very tired. “Some of those men you killed were my dear friends, Szeth-son-son-Vallano.”

“More insurance?” Szeth spat. “To keep yourself from suspicion?”

“In part. And in part because their deaths were necessary.”

“Why?” Szeth asked. “What could it possibly have served?”

“Stability. Those you killed were among the most powerful and influential men in Roshar.”

“How does that help stability?”

“Sometimes,” Taravangian said, “you must tear down a structure to build a new one with stronger walls.” He turned around, looking out over the ocean. “And we are going to need strong walls in the coming years. Very, very strong walls.”

 

I don't believe Taravangian plans on delaying indefinitely, or believes he can.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest Shash]

@Moogle

Yeah, I agree. They're each preparing for it in their own way. Honestly, Taravangian is probably doing a better job because he wants to delay the Desolation and and make careful prepations where Dalinar is sort of making last minute hasty prepations the best he can.

EDIT: It's difficult to admit that Taravangian is probably doing a better job because I like Dalinar far, far more. Heh.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Shash

[Gloom he/him]

Oh, I probably just blundered in conveying my point. I completely agree that they are going about two opposite things. Dalinar is working to unite the nations, although is only really working on uniting the HighPrinces, which is a horrible error IMHO. 

 

Taravangian has been aware of the coming desolation for quite some time. Dalinar has been sure of it for something less than a month. I think that you could cut him a bit of slack on not having a grand scheme to take over the world in that time period. In his defense, a united Alethkar would be quite formidable and may be capable of conscripting the aid of the surrounding nations by dint of overwhelming force. This may not get him everything he needs, but it could be enough to throw up a bulwark against the Everstorm until additional aid can be brought to bear.