Yata he/him Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, Leyrann said: Odium doesn't want to pick up any power of the other shards, however, as he knows that would change the way he himself would be, and he does not want that. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=675#12 I'm curious, by the way, where the connection of Odium with stone comes from. I haven't seen anything that points one way or the other, but many people here seem to think it quite likely, so I was wondering if someone could point me towards some theories or something. It's possible the Stone are some focus for Braize's magic and in this Odium's Investiture is affected by them
Grythe Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 I wasn't aware of that WoB- thanks for pointing it out. Sorry if I worded it wrong but I meant what Yata said- Quote Stone acts as a focus for Braize's magic The stone idea came from the fact that thunderclasts were described as being ripped from the stone in Dalinar's visions and from the earthquake quote in my previous post. Similarly storms seem to act as a focus for Honor. Twisting my original theory slightly to fit with the WoB- if Honor is splintered (less powerful than Odium), it could allow Odium to focus power through the storms as the oppositional force (Honor) is weaker. I don't know, it just seems significant that this is the first desolation since Honor's splintering and it's starting with a storm.
Fulminato he/him Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 the (ever)storm is new even in the listener's song “Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to forsee./ As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens. ” —17th stanza of the Song of Secrets 1
ScavellTane Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Was the everstorm crafted to restore the listeners ability to sprenbond or does it have other purpose? Edited October 23, 2017 by ScavellTane
Yata he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, ScavellTane said: Was the everstorm crafted to restore the listeners ability to sprenbond or does it have other purpose? We don't know. It's a new stuff in the Desolations, its hard to understand if there are other purposes
DocHoliday he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 I got an even better reason straight from the mouth of Dalinar in OB. The Storm schedules have been thrown completely out of whack, "planting seasons are an unknown now, famine will come to much of Roshar." If the parshmen hadn't started changing forms, this would be an economic disaster on a scale Roshar hadn't seen in millennia.
ZenBossanova Posted October 23, 2017 Author Posted October 23, 2017 On 10/21/2017 at 10:53 AM, Fulminato said: the (ever)storm is new even in the listener's song “Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to forsee./ As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens. ” —17th stanza of the Song of Secrets How does this mean that there have not been Everstorms before? How would Parshendi from hundreds of years ago, know that this time we would have a storm, if there hadn't been any Everstorms before? Likewise, in the first POV from Dalinar in WoK, we learn about the Everstorm from the visions he has been having. If we have to assume that this is the first ever Everstorm, then you actually have far, far more to explain, than if we understand that the Everstorm was a usual aspect of a Desolation.
Wreith he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: On 10/21/2017 at 0:53 PM, Fulminato said: the (ever)storm is new even in the listener's song “Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to forsee./ As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens. ” —17th stanza of the Song of Secrets How does this mean that there have not been Everstorms before? How would Parshendi from hundreds of years ago, know that this time we would have a storm, if there hadn't been any Everstorms before? Likewise, in the first POV from Dalinar in WoK, we learn about the Everstorm from the visions he has been having. If we have to assume that this is the first ever Everstorm, then you actually have far, far more to explain, than if we understand that the Everstorm was a usual aspect of a Desolation. Parshendi from hundreds of years ago know that this time we would have a storm because Nightform predicts what will be. Predicting the future is associated with voidbringers for a reason... Dalinar knows of the Everstorm just as a word used in his visions. Visions granted by Tanavast who, as a shardholder, can see the future. I really don't understand why people still have trouble believing this is the first occurrence of the Everstorm. Every piece of evidence we have says it is. 2
Blacksmithki Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, Wreith said: Parshendi from hundreds of years ago know that this time we would have a storm because Nightform predicts what will be. Predicting the future is associated with voidbringers for a reason... Dalinar knows of the Everstorm just as a word used in his visions. Visions granted by Tanavast who, as a shardholder, can see the future. I really don't understand why people still have trouble believing this is the first occurrence of the Everstorm. Every piece of evidence we have says it is. Even Jashnah is the epilogue of WoR said directly referring to the everstorm that this was not how it (desolations) happened in the past.
ZenBossanova Posted October 23, 2017 Author Posted October 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Wreith said: I really don't understand why people still have trouble believing this is the first occurrence of the Everstorm. Every piece of evidence we have says it is. I have yet to see solid proof. I am seeing a long chain of inferences. 3 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: Even Jashnah is the epilogue of WoR said directly referring to the everstorm that this was not how it (desolations) happened in the past. That does not mean there was no storm before, only that the timing and/or direction was different this time.
Blacksmithki Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I have yet to see solid proof. I am seeing a long chain of inferences. That does not mean there was no storm before, only that the timing and/or direction was different this time. I don't have the book on me, but it referred to the storm as "something new" only old of design 1
Fulminato he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I have yet to see solid proof. I am seeing a long chain of inferences. we have the word of (at least) (1) tanavast, (2) the stormfather, (3) voidbringer form for foresee, (4) jasnah comment. to the everstorm is a new thing. e no one bit of information in the evestorm appear in the ancient time.
Wreith he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: 12 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I have yet to see solid proof. I am seeing a long chain of inferences. That does not mean there was no storm before, only that the timing and/or direction was different this time. I don't have the book on me, but it referred to the storm as "something new" only old of design yeah, that's the Stormfather talking to Dalinar in chapter 89 of WoR Quote The Everstorm. It is a new thing, but old of design. It rounds the world now, and carries with it his spren. Any of the old people it touches will take on their new forms.
ZenBossanova Posted October 23, 2017 Author Posted October 23, 2017 If I purchase a new car, that hardly means that I have not had a car before. @Blacksmithki @Fulminato It could only be 'old of design' if they had them previously.
Calderis he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: If I purchase a new car, that hardly means that I have not had a car before. @Blacksmithki @Fulminato It could only be 'old of design' if they had them previously. This is why I disagree. You can design something and not have the means to create it. The history of invention is full of examples of this. Old of design does not mean pre-existing.
Fulminato he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: If I purchase a new car, that hardly means that I have not had a car before. @Blacksmithki @Fulminato It could only be 'old of design' if they had them previously. if you had a car before 'car' isn't a new thing. the 'old desing' mean the powers behind the new storm are old, the 'mind' make this possibile is old. the evestorm is a odium-related magic effect, so yes odium IS old, but this form of his power IS new Edited October 23, 2017 by Fulminato
Blacksmithki Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: If I purchase a new car, that hardly means that I have not had a car before. @Blacksmithki @Fulminato It could only be 'old of design' if they had them previously. A car is distinctly different, if this storm had come before, it would be considered the same storm coming again not a new storm nearly identical to the old ones.
ZenBossanova Posted October 23, 2017 Author Posted October 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Calderis said: This is why I disagree. You can design something and not have the means to create it. The history of invention is full of examples of this. Old of design does not mean pre-existing. That is a logical possibility, but hardly an elegant answer. How would everyone know about it, unless it had happened before? @Blacksmithki @Fulminato The car analogy is apt. If I have a new car, it is new. It doesn't mean there was no car before, or that the concept of 'car' is new. How does everyone (everyone in the know) know about this, if it is the first time? That leaves a LOT MORE to explain, if you insist on that. Ok, ladies and gentlemen, I need to get back to work. Have fun discussing. I will be back later this week.
Blacksmithki Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: That is a logical possibility, but hardly an elegant answer. How would everyone know about it, unless it had happened before? @Blacksmithki @Fulminato The car analogy is apt. If I have a new car, it is new. It doesn't mean there was no car before, or that the concept of 'car' is new. How does everyone (everyone in the know) know about this, if it is the first time? That leaves a LOT MORE to explain, if you insist on that. Ok, ladies and gentlemen, I need to get back to work. Have fun discussing. I will be back later this week. Because we have three sources capable of seeing the future, at least one capable of predicting it and one who planned this, any of whom could mention it. (Honor, Cultivation, nightform, tarvagian, odium) also, if Honor knew what this storm was because it had come before, why would he give no actual advice on how to deal with it, such as, oh btw there is a storm coming the wrong direction, or even just show it in a vision? That would help prevent a load of destruction and Honor already seems to think the storm is unstoppable as he isn't advising "prevent the storm from coming" only "survive it" especially when it would fit with his champion plan of buy time. Also, anyone who has heard the listeners recite thier oral history (say to the next generation?) would have heard the prediction of the storm. Also, since stormform can sense the storm and tell all sorts of information about it, something else might be able to. There are so many ways everyone could have learned about this storm without it having happened before. Also, here is another car analogy, if a car passes you, then a bit later a car that is essentially the same passes you, you don't call that car a new car but like the last one, you say the same car passed you twice. Edit: Also anyone with whatever is happening the Renarin could predict stuff. Edited October 23, 2017 by Blacksmithki
Fulminato he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: How does everyone (everyone in the know) know about this, if it is the first time? That leaves a LOT MORE to explain, if you insist on that. the shardholder had some ability to see in the future, someone better someone else wrost, but all can feel them (the future). the listener had a specific form with the ability to see the future, renarin had made a countdown for the evestorm in the dalinar's house wall over all WoR, the spren had some knowledge of this, because they try to regain what was lost (nahel bond/radiancy) years before the actual start of the desolation. mistborn fist trilogy spoiler Spoiler the end of the hero of the ages is written in the first epigraph of final empire, 'They say I will hold the future of the entire world on my arms." the 'prophecy of the hero was part of the preservation plan to defeat ruin and save the word he created. and the prophecy was realy old, but no champion before sazed Edited October 23, 2017 by Fulminato
ZenBossanova Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 Quote I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely. I will just leave that here, as it seems appropriate. 12 hours ago, Blacksmithki said: Because we have three sources capable of seeing the future, at least one capable of predicting it and one who planned this, any of whom could mention it. (Honor, Cultivation, nightform, tarvagian, odium) also, if Honor knew what this storm was because it had come before, why would he give no actual advice on how to deal with it, such as, oh btw there is a storm coming the wrong direction, or even just show it in a vision? Many of the major parties knew a storm was coming. Even Syl could sense that. What was different, was the direction it was going. Remember, the storm-form Parshendi were aiming it in one direction, when Adolin surprised them, and they turned around to deal with him, while they were in the middle of calling the storm. Adolin (inadvertently) made them point in the wrong direction, and set the storm going in the right direction. No one predicted the direction, in spite of the fact that several spoke of the storm.
Calderis he/him Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I will just leave that here, as it seems appropriate. Many of the major parties knew a storm was coming. Even Syl could sense that. What was different, was the direction it was going. Remember, the storm-form Parshendi were aiming it in one direction, when Adolin surprised them, and they turned around to deal with him, while they were in the middle of calling the storm. Adolin (inadvertently) made them point in the wrong direction, and set the storm going in the right direction. No one predicted the direction, in spite of the fact that several spoke of the storm. Venli specifically mentioned the storm would go the wrong way. 1
ZenBossanova Posted October 24, 2017 Author Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Venli specifically mentioned the storm would go the wrong way Ok, I did find that quote. Yes, Venli did say that. I will concede this is almost certainly not the first reverse storm. However, I did find quotes with Eshonai and Venli talking about how this was used before. So, what is new then? What didn't happen this way before? The storm is just the latest Everstorm, and the reverse part, I will admit, appears to be usual. Edited October 24, 2017 by ZenBossanova
Leyrann Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) The Stormfather literally says this in reply to Dalinar asking why he would attempt to destroy them (by summoning the highstorm) after sending the visions: Quote You failed. The Everstorm is here, and the spren of the enemy come to inhibit the ancient ones. It is over. You have lost. He would not say that if the Everstorm had come before, because then he would know that it was not over yet. Additionally, as other people also pointed out, Tanavast, nightform, the Diagram etc all predict it, which can all be considered reliable sources to predict the future, meaning we can have several sources without requiring the Everstorm to have been there in the past. Odium can simply have designed it long ago, but not been able to get the Listeners to make it happen until now. Edited October 24, 2017 by Leyrann
Blacksmithki Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 6 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: Ok, I did find that quote. Yes, Venli did say that. I will concede this is almost certainly not the first reverse storm. However, I did find quotes with Eshonai and Venli talking about how this was used before. So, what is new then? What didn't happen this way before? The storm is just the latest Everstorm, and the reverse part, I will admit, appears to be usual. What quotes? The only one I can find that might be about that are far from definitive. (Old of design for example)
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