Djarskublar he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 Based on this passage in the new chapters: Spoiler To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. I am led to believe that Odium is not, and never will be again, in top fighting shape. To hazard a guess, I'd say he got wounded killing Ambition and lost chunks of power like Ambition did. That might be a partial cause of the Evil, or the shades. That is assuming a lot though. Also, what does the Stormfather mean by 'forces?' My initial assumption was Cultivation, but I don't think it has to be that simple. Maybe the 'survival' Shard is actually just lying in wait for the day Odium over-extends himself. This Shard doesn't have any of its power tied up in a planet, while Odium is Invested at this point, and apparently wounded to boot. Maybe the other Shards, known or not, are watching closely to pounce on any mistake Odium makes. Maybe the worldhopping community has some potential plans they could put into motion if things start heating up. I don't know that any of these are likely, but I do think that, whatever the answer, this is going to be important, at least behind the scenes. I was always a bit bothered that it seemed Odium came out on top of all these fights without any sign of injury. I guess that wasn't the case, which makes me feel a lot better.
Catladyman Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 Well we do have confirmation that Odium has been Splintered to some degree.. (Arcanum Unbounded spoilers) Spoiler "Farthest out of the three is Braize, which despite being cold and inhospitable to men is home to an ecosystem of self-aware Splinters." The issue, though, is the nature of these Splinters. I see two possible scenarios. One, Odium was damaged in a conflict with another Shard, resulting in Splinters. This is similar to the Splinters we have seen of Honor, Devotion, and Dominion. The second possibility is that Odium deliberately created these Splinters, similar to the Divine Breath of Endowment. If the latter possibility, we really have no way of gauging past damage done to Odium. If the former, though, then the Splinters, and their number, may indicate the degree of damage. The specific wording of the above quote makes me think that there are a LOT of Splinters on Braize. This makes me think that Odium's power is seriously diminished. This might not be as much as an issue for him as we assume, however, because what we've seen of voidspren seem to further Odium's goals anyway.
TheDarkDesperado he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 13 minutes ago, Catladyman said: This makes me think that Odium's power is seriously diminished. This might not be as much as an issue for him as we assume, however, because what we've seen of voidspren seem to further Odium's goals anyway. That and I believe Cultivation's intent would keep her relatively passive if she were to oppose him, along with Honor being shattered of course. His only fear would likely be of another Shard but otherwise the Stormfather seems confident Odium can continue indefinitely with no threat from Roshar thus the champion duel being the only way to win. This could play in to something more if another Shard comes by between the first and last 5 books thus creating a new antagonist or if Odium becomes more powerful (possibly from being forced by circumstances to finally take up another Shard) again likely between the first and last 5 books thus upping the threat and requiring a new plan. Might expound on this idea in another topic but I think it's relevant here as either scenario could come up in some form in the first 5 books.
Calderis he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 @Catladyman splinters do not mean that a Shard has been splintered. A Splinter can be willingly created by a Shard. The Divine Breath that is given to a Returned is a Splinter, and Endowment is completely whole.
IllNsickly he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Extesian said: CATLADYMAN SPLINTERS That's all. A genuine Laugh out Loud just happened.
Yata he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 Odium or every other Shard could craft Splinters of his own Power without diminishing himself as all' the Splinters are still part of himself. I am a bit curious from the Stormfather's words as for what we know, the Investiture used Will return to the Shard After some time. Maybe this means that Rayse as Vessel is keeping be' hurt by this Clash. Odium's Power is at his maximum but his "stamina" is not. It's not too different from what we saw with Preservation. The Vessel could be deadly hurt without affect the Shard too much (I Will remain vague as we are not in Cosmere Theory) 1
Djarskublar he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Author Posted October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, Extesian said: CATLADYMAN SPLINTERS That's all. I wake up and see that my topic has 5 replies and I get excited, and then it turns out to mostly be this... thanks guys 9 hours ago, Yata said: Odium or every other Shard could craft Splinters of his own Power without diminishing himself as all' the Splinters are still part of himself. I am a bit curious from the Stormfather's words as for what we know, the Investiture used Will return to the Shard After some time. Maybe this means that Rayse as Vessel is keeping be' hurt by this Clash. Odium's Power is at his maximum but his "stamina" is not. It's not too different from what we saw with Preservation. The Vessel could be deadly hurt without affect the Shard too much (I Will remain vague as we are not in Cosmere Theory) Maybe the wound is more that he no longer has a Connection to a portion of his power. That's my line of thought based on what Khriss says in AU about Ambition. I can't believe that that fight was totally one-sided, so that seems like the best candidate for where his wounds came from. As for what we saw with Preservation, I think that was more about the clash of intents damaging the Vessels. I would be willing to bet that if someone else had been holding R or P at the time (you know who), then they wouldn't have necessarily suffered the same injury, or at least not to the same extent. Besides that, the damage appeared to be basically temporary, though the constant pressure eventually would break a long time holder. Also trying to be vague here, not sure it's working.
Yata he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Djarskublar said: Maybe the wound is more that he no longer has a Connection to a portion of his power. That's my line of thought based on what Khriss says in AU about Ambition. I can't believe that that fight was totally one-sided, so that seems like the best candidate for where his wounds came from. I considerated this but new Connections could be Forgered (or the old repaired). In a notable case a Shard was fully capable of recover a portion of his power that was completelly severed from himself (again, I am vague to avoid spoileR to the otheRs but I assume you undeRstood, the case I am RefeRing to) Edited October 5, 2017 by Yata
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 If Odium is wounded, then Cultivation would be too. Otherwise, she would just move in and finish him off. Furthermore, can a Shard be partially splintered? Maybe Honor, Ambition, Dominion or Devotion managed to smack off a piece of him or something? Is that possible?
Djarskublar he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Author Posted October 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, Yata said: I considerated this but new Connection could be forget (or the old repaired). In a notable case a Shard was fully capable of recover a portion of his power that was completelly severed from himself (again, I am vague to avoid spoileR to the otheRs but I assume you undeRstood, the case I am RefeRing to) Yeah I know what you're talking about, but that wasn't separated from him like that, it was just in an inaccessible physical form, and then put into the pool of power that is just going to slowly return over time. It wasn't 'destroyed' in the way NB does. It also wasn't made permanently inaccessible before or after. 30 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: If Odium is wounded, then Cultivation would be too. Otherwise, she would just move in and finish him off. Furthermore, can a Shard be partially splintered? Maybe Honor, Ambition, Dominion or Devotion managed to smack off a piece of him or something? Is that possible? Cultivation isn't necessarily wounded. She might not be able to move in and finish him off for reasons unknown or guessable. And yeah, I'm pretty much saying someone/thing must have knocked a chunk of his power off. The question is then when and how.
Mulk he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 My best guess on Odium being wounded was when he took on Ambition. That was sort of drawn out, and likely would drive his desire to kill the rest even more quickly. As to why we haven't seen her...I don't know if her Intent lends itself well to death, destruction and vengeance. It may be that Odium has to come at her directly for her to be able to defend herself and attack him with her full power. In a way, it may be that Honor signed his own death warrant by directing so much of Odium's hatred at himself - the Oathpact and all that appear to be things of Honor's design, possibly even to deflect Odium away from Cultivation. Cultivation may have seen it as her role to help restore, rebuild after Desolations and that Honor saw his role as defending against the Desolations and Odium's intrusions, so that she was restrained from bringing the full might of her Shard to bear on Odium until and unless Honor was out of the way and he came for her instead. I may be way off base here, but that's what I'm thinking right now.
Yata he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, Djarskublar said: Yeah I know what you're talking about, but that wasn't separated from him like that, it was just in an inaccessible physical form, and then put into the pool of power that is just going to slowly return over time. It wasn't 'destroyed' in the way NB does. It also wasn't made permanently inaccessible before or after. It's not simply inaccessibile. It was severed from the Former owner. It was no more "part of him"...the simple fact that the Power didn't return to him when consumed It is (for me) a clear proof. I see that Power not too differently from the hipotetical Power lost by another Odium's Victim in a Shardworld we saw. The owner was still alive After lose It but It was no more part of himself. In both of cases I assume the Former owner could reConnect with the Power with a bit of effort. On this topic I believe that if someone manage to Ascend to Honor also reaching only the minimal threeshold (Let's say 5-10% of Honor's power) he/she could reConnect himself with the bit of Power spread Upon Roshar's system and slowly recover Power. But Sorry, this is OT. Maybe I Will start a new topic about. Returning to the actual point, I believe Odium-Shard is in good shape but Rayse is not, in the similar way of Leras (but in a very lessen way)
TheDarkDesperado he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: If Odium is wounded, then Cultivation would be too. Otherwise, she would just move in and finish him off. I disagree, as stated in my previous post it seems that her intent would likely make her passive and more likely to fight indirectly or otherwise Invested in Roshar enough to make the power difference negligible at best.
Subvisual Haze Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 I think he is weakened and stuck in the system against his will, probably as a result of Honor/The Oathpact. This doesn't make him weak by any means though. You can't just have Vegeta look through his scouter and determine which shard can beat up which other shard. Odium is dangerous because the shard's purpose makes it dangerous. Think of when Kelsier tried to use Preservation's power to attack Ruin and failed, because the Shard inherently doesn't work as well when used against its purpose. Odium, even a diminished Odium, is still a shard that can be wielded aggressively. Sure Cultivation may be more "intact", but Cultivation's power isn't the type of power that easily translates into "Let's go kill Odium!", it's more "Let's make a garden and think deep thoughts".
Solant he/him Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 Also, it states that his scars won't heal, not his wounds. It could be implying that Odium is more likely to choose a champion due to previous mistakes, in which case if he loses, he only lose time instead of risking injury. Just a thought.
aemetha he/him Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 12 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: Think of when Kelsier tried to use Preservation's power to attack Ruin and failed, because the Shard inherently doesn't work as well when used against its purpose It didn't work for Kelsier because he was of Ruin, the power basically rejected him. Vin had no such impediment to using the power against Ruin. In either case the shardic intent didn't prevent the use of it against Ruin, only the holders ability to wield it. Shardic intent takes much longer to warp the intentions of the shard holder. I see a lot of 'it's against Cultivations intent to fight' discussion here. I think there is some confusion between Cultivation, and untamed blooming life. Cultivation involves specifically cutting out the unwanted growth to direct remaining growth in the manner desired with the dead growth providing nutrients to the remainder. The same applies to other uses of cultivation, when a teacher cultivates a student for example they teach the right things and correct the wrong. It's in my view not just not against her intent to fight Odium, she would likely be compelled to a large extent to fight him by her intent. 5
Pattern he/him Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 The fact that Odium would rather play the time game than make a direct confrontation indicates that he is in a position of weakness. He has to be cunning now, since direct approaches in the past somewhere led to wounds (scars) that do not heal. He probably did not take a slow and well planned approach against Ambition and D&D, since it was quite soon after the shattering of Adonalsium. Especially about the fight with Ambition it is said that large chunks of power were ripped off, that subsequently warped the Threnodite System. We don't get many facts there though, so it is possible that only chunks of Ambition were set free (who escaped the system and died elsewhere) or that chunks of both Shards wreaked havoc. The Evil on Threnody is quite suspicious to be of Odium. Since Odium is trapped in the Rosharan system now as a by-product of the Oathpact, he would not be able to regain this part of his Investiture. I am not sure if that were possible at all even if he could travel to Threnody, since meanwhile, the ripped off Investiture would have developed sentience and an own Intent and/or Identity. This all is, of course, only speculative. We don't even know whether it is Cultivation he fears or something else entirely. There are still people around who have been present at the Shattering of Adonalsium who did not take up a shard themselves. They might now also how to shatter/splinter a shard, especially one who is not at his full power anymore. Hoid himself fears Odium, that is not to say he would not overcome that fear, as soon as Odium threatens to break free of Roshar. Frost is maintaining a non-intervention policy for now, who knows how this will change in the future as things become more dire?
Calderis he/him Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 10 hours ago, aemetha said: I see a lot of 'it's against Cultivations intent to fight' discussion here. I think there is some confusion between Cultivation, and untamed blooming life. Cultivation involves specifically cutting out the unwanted growth to direct remaining growth in the manner desired with the dead growth providing nutrients to the remainder. The same applies to other uses of cultivation, when a teacher cultivates a student for example they teach the right things and correct the wrong. It's in my view not just not against her intent to fight Odium, she would likely be compelled to a large extent to fight him by her intent. I agree with this so much. People want to think of Cultivation as "Nature," but Cultivation is inherently unnatural. It's the difference between untamed wilds and a planned and groomed ornamental garden. This is precisely why I believe that the Diagram is Cultivation's doing. Strengthen humanity through aggressive pruning and directed growth. Cultivation, as an intent, is probably my favorite. It has the most potential for actions both good and bad. 1
Mulk he/him Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 People who cultivate generally target specific areas for specific intents and purposes. The reason I say it's not generally in Cultivation's Intent to do such things is that someone who plants a garden or organizes a ranch or whatever tends not to care what goes on outside of their bounds as long as it doesn't spill over into what they are doing. As Alethela/Alethkar and Honor appear to have born the brunt of the fighting and all, I think Cultivation has been content to sit in the west of the world until Odium actually comes for her. You (all of you who think otherwise) may well be right on your interpretation of her intent. The idea she is behind the Diagram, I think that's an amazing possibility and I won't be surprised if that winds up being true. I just believe I'm not entirely wrong, as if revenge was within the normal range of her Intent, Cultivation would have come out swinging when Honor died.
Subvisual Haze Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 12 hours ago, aemetha said: It didn't work for Kelsier because he was of Ruin, the power basically rejected him. Vin had no such impediment to using the power against Ruin. In either case the shardic intent didn't prevent the use of it against Ruin, only the holders ability to wield it. Shardic intent takes much longer to warp the intentions of the shard holder. Because the willingness to seek out and attack another person is of Ruin. It was a Catch 22, how do you destroy something without being a destructive individual (and thus limiting your ability to wield the power). Vin was a one in a million freak case of prophecy (and possibly intervention of multiple shards based on the cut ending from Well of Ascension) who was in the perfect place at the perfect time with the perfect set of circumstances to enable her to attune to preservation and destroy as a service of preservation. Most other shard holders get attuned to their shards over time, and the overwhelming power of the shard warps their personality slowly over time to match the shard. Ati was a kind person who was changed to a crazy destruction lover, Sazed is already finding it difficult to directly intervene in affairs of man without disrupting the balance of harmony. Cultivation can make great plans sure, for the protection of humanity. She has been holding her shard for a very long time now, and actually engineering the destruction of Odium (who is on another planet entirely) is likely an impossible task. Even The Diagram, which I agree seems very Cultivation-y is focused not on destroying Odium, but on the mere preservation of the human species on Roshar. You also have to consider priorities. Cultivation likely has invested a great deal of her power into the land and life of Roshar, that energy then isn't freely available for her to throw headlong into a battle with another shard. Odium, even a reduced Odium, can still focus his power fully towards the destruction of others.
Canucck Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) On 10/6/2017 at 6:04 PM, Solant said: Also, it states that his scars won't heal, not his wounds. It could be implying that Odium is more likely to choose a champion due to previous mistakes, in which case if he loses, he only lose time instead of risking injury. Just a thought. If he knows of Harmony already (as in during SA 1-5), the idea of Shards combining together might make him a bit less patient. Edited October 8, 2017 by Canucck
Salkara Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 9 hours ago, Calderis said: People want to think of Cultivation as "Nature," but Cultivation is inherently unnatural. It's the difference between untamed wilds and a planned and groomed ornamental garden. This is precisely why I believe that the Diagram is Cultivation's doing. Strengthen humanity through aggressive pruning and directed growth. Agreed, but I'd caution that Cultivation is less direct than indirect. Take the example of the teacher. The teacher prepared the student to the succeed in {x} endeavour. The teacher isn't succeeding in {x}, the student is. Most likely, I'd say that Cultivation is cultivating the Rosharan species to take on Odium rather than getting ready to go toe to toe in the octagon with Rayse herself. I don't see Brandon introducing all these wonderfully complex characters just so Cultivation can go deus ex machina at the end. 8 hours ago, Mulk said: I think Cultivation has been content to sit in the west of the world until Odium actually comes for her. Except for Cultivation helped Honor against Odium and she was pretty darn close to Honor when he was shattered.
Calderis he/him Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 24 minutes ago, Salkara said: I don't see Brandon introducing all these wonderfully complex characters just so Cultivation can go deus ex machina at the end. I don't see anything Deus ex machina about it. Shards can move planets. They can create microorganisms. They can do things so far beyond what mortal species are capable that if Cultivation weren't still alive, Odium would have already broken free and ended it. Cultivation will oppose Odium. Without it, out protagonists wouldn't stand a chance. They will be what tips the scales though.
Salkara Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: I don't see anything Deus ex machina about it. Shards can move planets. They can create microorganisms. They can do things so far beyond what mortal species are capable that if Cultivation weren't still alive, Odium would have already broken free and ended it. Cultivation will oppose Odium. Without it, out protagonists wouldn't stand a chance. They will be what tips the scales though. I agree that Cultivation will oppose Odium, but I don't think directly. Maybe she'll administer the coupe de grace, but I don't think she'll be duking it out in 12 rounds. I think, instead, the characters we see on screen are the weapons she is cultivating, and we won't realize the full extent until later. Like when Syl says Quote “Besides, there was… another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…” I think she's saying that even though she's an honorspren, her bond with Kaladin was part of Cultivation's plans.
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