[OB] Dalinar's wife(s)

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

This is really interesting. I do notice that this happens on the heels of him using one of the Surges (Adhesion) for the first time. Not sure if that's relevant or not.

[CodeMnke she/her]

One other thought -

   We know investiture blocks other investiture. Cultivation (boon/curse) investiture blocks the memories. Honor investiture is stormlight. But he was HOLDING stormlight at the time. It IS possible they interfere with each other such that the boon/curse is partially/fully blocked. Wthought actually healing the "wound" so to speak. If that were the case he could obviously hear the name spoken. It could even account for remembering her face if they boon/curse blocks memory rather than removes/replaces it.

I absolutely hate the idea that its the concept of his wife that he forgets, rather than the person, not because it isn't reasonable (it is sadly!) but I would just hate that for Dalinar and Navani. So i may be stretching to find other causes.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

One other note. When Dalinar used Stormlight at the end of WoR, it was all expended in healing his battle injuries.

[Pagerunner he/him]

39 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

This is really interesting. I do notice that this happens on the heels of him using one of the Surges (Adhesion) for the first time. Not sure if that's relevant or not.

If you're comfortable with less literal interpretations of the Surges, Dalianr's use of Adhesion could be preventing his wife's name from "slipping away" as it has in the past. I'd find that to be quite a hermeneutical crime, though...

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

Just now, Pagerunner said:

If you're comfortable with less literal interpretations of the Surges, Dalianr's use of Adhesion could be preventing his wife's name from "slipping away" as it has in the past. I'd find that to be quite a hermeneutical crime, though...

I'm genuinely pleased that you used the term hermeneutical. You can critique my ideas anytime

[Head Crabs]

I tend to agree with those who think that the stormlight is the culprit for dalinar remembering Evi. I cant remember who, but someone proposed that all of the curses that we know about from the nightwatcher have had to do with physical neurological functions of those who sought her out. Examples: seeing the world inverted, loss of sensation in your hands, memory loss. 

 

I'd have to imagine that the nightwatcher is able to manipulate the actual physiology of people to inflict these so called curses on people. In dalinars case this may have been the severing of neurons connecting in the memory centers of his brain that were related to his wife. And injury like that would most likely take more than just a little stormlight to heal. 

 

To poke a final little hole in this theory, it seems unlikely that the curse dalinar recieved would be so ambiguous as to shift from person to person depending on who he considered his wife. I think this theory is rooted in the context that dalinar always worded his curse as "I cannot remember my wife" I doubt that the nightwatcher cursed him with something that shifted around when he feels love for someone. More likely to me is that he asked for his boon (which i desperately want to know) and the nightwatcher made him forget all about evi. Who he can now only refer to as his wife. Which causes a sense of ambiguity that this theory feels rooted in. 

All that to say i think the culprit is still good old investiture restoring connection and healing those neurons! 

[Guest]

While I have to admit the theory is valid and has merit, I so do not want Dalinar to start forgetting Navani... This would be painful to read. I hope it is just the stormlight.

[kiapet]

The Dalinar forgetting Navani idea was actually the subject of an awesome fic by squirenonny- To Love Again.

[OathKeeper]

We learned in an interlude of WoK that the old magic doesn't operate on verbal technicalities. It is straightforward and clear in both curses and boons and you don't have to carefully close up lexical loopholes with the nightwatcher. 

So if forgetting Evi was his boon (have we ruled this out?), No way would the nightwatcher be so tricksy as to transfer it to Navani.

If his curse was to forget Evi specifically, that's obviously not transferrable. 

If his curse was to forget "the woman he loves," I have a hard time imagining it would take this long to start forgetting her. I believe he loved Evi just fine, but is his current love for Navani so minor in comparison that no effects have set in yet?

If his curse was to forget "his wife", well that seems unlike Nightwatcher to hinge the curse on the marriage vows rather than the relationship itself. If they had been married under normal circumstances (without a bond to the Stormfather), they could just get divorced and be lifelong companions, making it a pretty reversible curse. 

I also doubt the old magic can be bested in such a way as to secure one's boon and ditch one's curse. That would be too convenient. 

There is something weird going on with the old magic as it interfaces with surgebinders. I wonder if they're somehow incompatible. Lift's boon is failing her too. Will Taravangian's genius start failing him? 

[Rasha]

@OathKeeper

Lift's boon is not failing. It is just that she asked for resistance to change, but the Nightwatcher doesn't give you what you ask, she gives you what she feels you deserve. Lift doesn't understand why her body change, because the Nigthwatcher never froze her in time (Wyndle says so), but she gave her the capacity to metabolize food into stormlight and something else. We don't know which is the boon / curse, but Lift's ability to metabolize food hasn't disapeared yet.

 

You may also say that the old magic cannot be bested because the curses are adaptive and not set in time, which also fits with Cultivation intent's. The boon / curse may evolve to suit the Intention the Nightwatcher had when placing them, which makes it impossible to break the curse / boon by lawyering your way up and trying to twist the Nightwatcher's Intent. It would also be very fitting with BS's system of magic where Intent rules the results desired. As an aside note, we don't know weither Dalinar forgettign Evi is his boon or his curse. Never in Stormlight Archive does Dalinar states what is his boon or curse, the only info we have on Dalinar's visit is that he totally forgot his wife. Dalinar forgetting his wife could very well be an act of compassion on the Nightwatcher's part if for example Dalinar felt too guilty about something that happened to her. Dalinar remembering Evi might not be a cake walk in the park, he may have to face something horrible he did in the past. Or not. Maybe, after all, everything will end up well.

[Harbour he/him]

I wonder was there a reason Evi's name is Evil without L?

Brandon seems like to give characters mean names this chapter. Rial has it too.

[Fulminato he/him]

The way dalinar forget his wife had always strike me a close resemblance with a feruchemist store some memory inside a coppermind. (Mistborn spoiler)

Spoiler

Sazed describe the effect of the memory stored like a "hole" in his current memory.

iirc during starting of the engineering works in urteau

I don't think the stormlight healed his lost connection, but something bridged the gap and dalinar slowly restore all his memory. Don't think is a coincidence the next flashback chapter should be the feast with the first meet with his future wife.

And only at the end of the book we will know the terrible action dalinar had done to leads him to the nightwatcher. The stormfather comment to thing better to be forgotten for the recreance point to the "hole" in the dalinar mind 'sound' like a specific action was done and the pain was so unbearable to force dalinar to seeks the old magic.

[Mistbornwithakitty she/her]

If this theory were true it would shatter my heart into a billion pieces and be spread across the Cosmere never to be reformed again.  Then I would drown in my own tears.  I mean, I would appreciate the "star-crossed lovers" thing and the cleverness of the whole scheme, but it would still make sure I was not ok for an eternity.

Conclusion: This better not be true. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Mistbornwithakitty
bad spelling

[Salkara]

I have three main issues with this theory (besides not liking it, of course):

1. It relies on the notion that Evi's title somehow changed when Dalinar married Navani. I saw elsewhere on this board someone refer to Evi as Dalinar's "ex-wife" now that he's married to Navani, and that's the reason for remembering Evi (and presumably forgetting Navani). The problem here is (as far as we know) Dalinar never divorced Evi. She's never been his "ex-wife." She's been his deceased wife, but that hasn't changed now that he's married Navani. If his boon or curse was to forget his "wife" and that included his deceased wife before marrying Navani, it shouldn't have changed now that he's married to someone else. Evi is still his deceased wife. So, forgetting Dalinar's "wife" either included a deceased wife (and Dalinar shouldn't be remembering Evi) or didn't include a deceased wife (and Dalinar should've always remembered Evi).
2. It relies on a technicality (e.g. Dalinar wished to not remember his "wife" rather than "Evi"). In TWoK, Av, during Baxil's interlude, states that this is not how the Old Magic works. He says the boons and curses are straightforward and not dependent on the language of the wish. Furthermore, Renarin states that once you have your boon/curse, the Nightwatcher is supposed to leave you alone. This "switch" would require either additional meddling by the Nightwatcher or a persistent type of spell which seems outside the scope of Cosmere magics.
3. It's unnecessary. There are so many things going on in the story right now and so many other secrets that need to be revealed. Throwing in a new magical mechanic just seems too busy.

Personally, I think it's likely to be more mundane Cosmere Spiritual Realm magics, like Connection being toggled on/off with Investiture.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Salkara

[Subvisual Haze]

I don't think this is actually correct, but you deserve lots of upvotes for such a creative interpretation though.  Mostly I think this is wrong just because it seems too cruel, and Nightwatcher seems more enigmatic than sadistic in her actions.

Personally I think the soul-Connection between Dalinar and Evi was magically blocked by Nightwatcher.  The marriage sworn oaths (oaths being central to magical power related to Honor) between Dalinar and Navani has forged a tight connection between them, and somehow Dalinar is using his Bondsmith powers to "work around" the block.  Navani's soul remembers Evi, and Dalinar's soul is now so tightly connected to Navani that he can remember Evi through Navani.

I think this might be a sneak peak of a Bondsmith's powers - the ability to create or block connections between different souls.

[Erunion he/him]

This theory is clever, tragic and would make for heart breaking drama. 

And I hate it so much you guys please no! For Honour’s sake, no! Storms no! This would suck so much you guys. 

 

That being said, let’s now stretch to find reasonable alternate theories:

Stormlight & Connection - dalinars Connection to Evi was severed, but is now being healed.

Why it’s reasonable? Dalinar continually thinks of it as a wound, a hole, as damage. And he thinks of it that way every time her name is mentioned, and only when she is mentioned. It’s a hole in his mind that he ignores except when it’s brought to his attention. So what happened? He was holding a lot of Stormlight when he was reminded of his ‘wound’.... and it was healed. 

 

Honour & Cultivation - Dalinar is bound to a Spren that is very close to Honour and Honour’s investiture. Investiture resists Investiture of other types, save where it’s intentionally woven together using that resistance (like Saidin and Saidar from WOT - evidence being the Mistborn magics where Investiture resists other Investiture save where it’s used specifically and intentionally together). 

Why it’s reasonable? As stated above, Investiture resists Investiture. Bondsmiths, like Windrunners, are very close to Honour. Our Edgedancer friend Lift is bonded to a cultivationspren - the Spren closest to Cultivation! It’s only natural that her Investiture wouldn’t work against her boon/curse. No one has mentioned Evi between his formal bonding and now, so he hasn’t noticed the change. Now the change is noticed and he’s shocked. 

 

Remember, this too will bring about a lot of drama. He’s had no memory of his wife for what, a decade? Now it’s coming rushing back shortly after he married someone else? That’s not gonna put any dramatic challenges or soul searching in here at all, especially not of something tragic/horrific happened. 

[Wreith he/him]

2 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I don't think this is actually correct, but you deserve lots of upvotes for such a creative interpretation though.  Mostly I think this is wrong just because it seems too cruel, and Nightwatcher seems more enigmatic than sadistic in her actions.

Personally I think the soul-Connection between Dalinar and Evi was magically blocked by Nightwatcher.  The marriage sworn oaths (oaths being central to magical power related to Honor) between Dalinar and Navani has forged a tight connection between them, and somehow Dalinar is using his Bondsmith powers to "work around" the block.  Navani's soul remembers Evi, and Dalinar's soul is now so tightly connected to Navani that he can remember Evi through Navani.

I think this might be a sneak peak of a Bondsmith's powers - the ability to create or block connections between different souls.

oooh, I much prefer this. Remembering through Navani.

And until next week, it's entirely plausible because all we see him remember is Evi's name and face.

Once he starts remembering things Navani shouldn't know, the theory goes away, but it's nice for now.

hooray false hope.

 

I want to see a traditional Vorin wedding so we know what the usual oaths would entail.

I currently believe they would end at death like the marriage oaths I'm familiar with, but if they don't feature that condition it's possible Dalinar is still somehow bound to Evi which I think would be interesting.

[Shardbearer he/him]

On 10/3/2017 at 8:32 PM, OathKeeper said:

We learned in an interlude of WoK that the old magic doesn't operate on verbal technicalities. It is straightforward and clear in both curses and boons and you don't have to carefully close up lexical loopholes with the nightwatcher. 

We have one character who believes that you don't need to worry about closing up loopholes in how you word your requests to the NW. And he's probably right about that.

But, that doesn't necessarily mean the words she uses in response to your request aren't important. If she told Dalinar "You will forget your wife" then it certainly is possible that this boon/curse would transfer to Navani.  

Now, do I think that this is what's happening? I don't know. It's a possibility, but there have been other possibilities floated here too, so we'll see what happens.

Also, am I remembering correctly in thinking TWoK indicated that the reason he went to the NW in the first place was because his jealousy of Gavilar and Navani almost drove him to do something drastic? Maybe after Evi died he started having feelings for Navani again and went to the NW to ask for something related to that...

Edited October 5, 2017 by Shardbearer

[Betrail]

I honestly thought that the moment Dalinar married, he would instantly forget Navani... So I was surprised, that he remembered his first wife instead... So I still agree with this theory.

[Watchcry he/him]

On 10/3/2017 at 1:21 PM, Crucible of Shards said:

One other note. When Dalinar used Stormlight at the end of WoR, it was all expended in healing his battle injuries.

Do you really think this is only the second time he's used Stormlight since the end of way of Kings? I'm leading towards no. I could be wrong tho!

Edit: I meant words of radiance

Edited October 6, 2017 by Watchcry

[+Authweight]

9 hours ago, Watchcry said:

Do you really think this is only the second time he's used Stormlight since the end of way of Kings? I'm leading towards no. I could be wrong tho!

Edit: I meant words of radiance

My theory is that the unique circumstance was hearing the name while being invested by Stormlight. When he heard the name, it briefly awoke those memories, and that was enough to provoke the Stormlight to begin the healing process (before the Old Magic could kick in to do its thing). 

Alternatively, Stormlight interferes with the Old Magic, and he isn't healed at all. In this scenario, it is possible the memories slip away when he is no longer invested with Stormlight.