[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Nebty]

On 10/8/2017 at 10:36 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Kaladin has changed somewhat between WoR and OB in this regard, but he seems quite unwilling to even consider a having a romantic relationship with a lighteyes. Though we'll have to wait and see how serious he is about that if there is a real opportunity. Eg, even if he knows he does have feelings for a particular lighteyed woman, would he still deny those feelings when face-to-face with her because of his general feelings towards lighteyes?

Like SLNC, I think the 'but she's a lighteyes' stuff is Kaladin desperately trying to avoid admitting that he likes her. Probably not at first, but definitely after he actually got to know her. In the second quote you posted, he thinks that, "The words struck uncomfortably close to the truth." Basically acknowledging his feelings, to himself if not to Syl. He does the same thing late in WoR.

Quote

Kaladin found himself standing up amid the bridgemen, despite the pain of his leg, as he noticed Adolin and Shallan riding past. He followed the pair with his eyes. Adolin, astride his thick-hooved Ryshadium, and Shallan on a more modestly sized brown animal. She looked gorgeous. Kaladin was willing to admit it, if only to himself. Brilliant red hair, ready smile. She said something clever; Kaladin could almost hear the words. He waited, hoping that she’d look toward him, meet his eyes across the short distance. She didn’t. She rode on, and Kaladin felt like an utter fool.

His views have shifted since he refused to even see a lighteyes as attractive in his conversation with Yake. He still isn't the biggest fan of them, but he's attracted to Shallan despite that, because of who she is.

And that's also why I can't quite see the Veil thing happening. He's already accepted a lighteyes as a romantic interest, more or less. The biggest barrier now is 1) she's betrothed to his friend, and 2) he doesn't know whether she reciprocates his feelings.

I do think it would be interesting for Kaladin and Veil to meet. He has a very sensitive b*llshit detector where Shallan is concerned, and he only really started liking her once she let him see the real her. So would Kaladin catch on to Veil being a lie?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

5 hours ago, PlanetReelo said:

Relax, no one is 'shaming you' in to liking anything. I've noticed that Shallan and Adolin shippers like to complain about cliche tropes as and when it suits them. If we're talking about cliches, the old 'longstanding womaniser who finally changes for that one 'different' girl' trope makes my eyes roll to the back of my skull. So it's really more a matter of which cliches you personally like/dislike, and that's why I can never take these arguments seriously.

When I was watching one of Brandon's lectures, I think I recall he mentioned something to the effect of most ideas having been done is one way or another, but success lying in their exploration from a different angle. Cliches are a common occurrence in fantasy literature, but even they can be explored in a refreshing and original manner.

You completely missed the context of the post you quoted. First, it's not a Shadolin post, so why are you turning your response into an attack on that ship? Second it was in regards of me being told I would like it if Brandon wrote it even after I stated it's something I dislike; that's borderline shaming and if you take the same approach and apply it on another topic you may see how it came off to me and actually understand what I meant. Don't take a single sentence out the whole discussion, of course it changes nuance that way.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Nebty]

30 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Second it was in regards of me being told I would like it if Brandon wrote it even after I stated it's something I dislike;

I never said that. I said that the meta argument was unconvincing because everything is tropes. And that arguing that one plot point is objectively better than another because one is too tropey misses the point that "too tropey" is an entirely subjective thing. I wasn't attacking your particular feelings about the characters, just the way you were arguing.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Nebty

[Nebty]

[disregard]

Edited October 9, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

@Nebty In the above post I shared how I felt when I wrote that referenced post. There were some people saying if Brandon writes X, it will be amazing and I am someone who never found X amazing, which might have influenced my interpretation. May be you didn't mean it that way, it's a days dead discussion and we moved on to talking on other points. Nothing productive will come from singling out an emotionally colored out of context sentence like the person I was responding to above did. Please don't consider my post an accusation, but take it as the expressed feeling in a already passed moment, which it was. I simply prefer to share those, because written communication lacks some important elements, especially when people don't know each other  

[Nebty]

@Aleksiel Gotcha! Just wanted to clarify.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

3 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

You completely missed the context of the post you quoted. First, it's not a Shadolin post, so why are you turning your response into an attack on that ship? Second it was in regards of me being told I would like it if Brandon wrote it even after I stated it's something I dislike; that's borderline shaming and if you take the same approach and apply it on another topic you may see how it came off to me and actually understand what I meant. Don't take a single sentence out the whole discussion, of course it changes nuance that way.

Firstly, why would you think that this is an attack? I'm pointing out a fallacy in an argument that someone has put forward. I'm simply debating. 

Whilst maybe not directly aimed at you, your post is reminiscent of an argument I have observed more than a handful of times on this forum - and in all those instances they were Shadolin supporters pointing out supposed cliches whilst ignoring others. Apologies if you felt that I pulled your post out of context, but I read all the posts leading up to it and I felt it was relevant to point out that cliches are prevalent throughout WoK and WoR.

[Aleksiel]

20 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

Firstly, why would you think that this is an attack? I'm pointing out a fallacy in an argument that someone has put forward. I'm simply debating. 

Whilst maybe not directly aimed at you, your post is reminiscent of an argument I have observed more than a handful of times on this forum - and in all those instances they were Shadolin supporters pointing out supposed cliches whilst ignoring others. Apologies if you felt that I pulled your post out of context, but I read all the posts leading up to it and I felt it was relevant to point out that cliches are prevalent throughout WoK and WoR.

Shadolin wasn't part of what you quoted, so there was no reason to make a reply about it. I clarified above what I meant, may be that will help clear out your confusion 

If your intention was to start a productive debate around types of tropes, you could have picked a post where those were discussed or expressed your view without focusing on any post in particular instead of singling a sentence from a chain. Your decision to engage me by using 'Relax' as your first word didn't help improve my impression, it's a poor way of starting a conversation, especially when jumping into the middle of an already finished one. Regardless, apologies accepted.

I don't agree cliches are prevalent throughout the WoK and WoR, but if you insist on that, then I want to know what all too similar books you've read, so I can read them too 

[PlanetReelo she/her]

35 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Shadolin wasn't part of what you quoted, so there was no reason to make a reply about it. I clarified above what I meant, may be that will help clear out your confusion 

If your intention was to start a productive debate around types of tropes, you could have picked a post where those were discussed or expressed your view without focusing on any post in particular instead of singling a sentence from a chain. Your decision to engage me by using 'Relax' as your first word didn't help improve my impression, it's a poor way of starting a conversation, especially when jumping into the middle of an already finished one. Regardless, apologies accepted.

I don't agree cliches are prevalent throughout the WoK and WoR, but if you insist on that, then I want to know what all too similar books you've read, so I can read them too 

True, Shadolin was not a part of your original post. But both Shadolin and Shalladin are the basis for discussion in this thread, so I'm not sure that I've done anything wrong by drawing your comment back to the original subject matter. The two ships are continually being compared in this thread, and many others on this forum. I am simply trying to say that there should be acknowledgement of cliches on both sides. To be honest, your statement about shalladin being cliche was pretty definitive, regardless of context. I may have misinterpreted the 'shaming' part though, that's my bad!

I also admit that it would have been more pertinent to quote one of your other comments instead of the one I picked. The second trope that you stated below was the one that I have heard echoed by Shadolin supporters time and time again, and I had that in mind when I replied.

Quote

On one side we have the 'main female character, oblivious to her own appeal has both male leads fall for her' along with 'two characters that hated each other at first later fall in love' - both very tiresome tropes that have been done to death, does that fit Brandon's style?

 

[Aleksiel]

@PlanetReelo I wouldn't use trope and cliche interchangeably. 

Yes, those tropes I mentioned have been overdone is different fantasy subgenres and readers are more aware and tired of them - not all, yet a significant enough proportion to have both those tropes mentioned in various videos and articles on the subject. The arranged marriage working out is something Brandon has done in Warbreaker, but it's a trope that has fallen out of fashion in our century, so I wouldn't call it a cliche currently. They were several in Song of Ice and Fire, but 'working out' isn't something that applies  Subtle and debatable difference when a trope is a cliche...  But I'm yet to see anyone outside Shalladin threads complain about all those successful arranged marriages writers are selling us. 

I'd say two love triangles would take too much attention on one type of romance trope in a non-romantic novel. We have one - Dalinar, Navani, Gavilar - that we'll probably see more of in this book, so from outline perspective (yes, I know some people hate this argument) I doubt Brandon will insert another one. I think it would do great disservice of Kaladin's character to get tangled in a love triangle - he wouldn't fool around with a girl that's currently in a relationship, that would undermine his arc of being the person who does what's right. The Tarah venue sounds very interesting to explore - he remembered her in both books and we know for certain there's a flashback indicating it's highly probable they are in close proximity again, so I wouldn't write off a meeting between them.

[Dreamstorm]

@Aleksiel I'm not sure how common the "hot/popular/rich jock falls for quirky girl" trope is in epic fantasy, but I'd argue it's used incredibly often in creative works in general (i.e. every teen movie ever.)

I think you have a very good point that trope and cliche have different meanings (and that @PlanetReelo maybe was not thinking about the difference between them - they can let us know.) A trope is a common theme or storyline, whereas a cliche (in this context) is an overused common theme. I see this as debate between what is objective (both the Shadolin and Shalladin romantic storyline are/would be tropes) versus subjective (which of those tropes you personally find to be a cliche). I think that was the point of @PlanetReelo's first post; both are tropes so you can't hate Shalladin solely based on the fact it is a trope (as the Shadolin romanance is too). But of course you can (anyone can... it's called having an opinion) find one trope more or less appealing and more or less of a cliche than the other. 

As far as tropes in WoK and WoR (keeping in mind it's up to your subjective interpretation whether or not these are cliches), off the top of my head... obscure boy becomes powerful, obscure girl becomes powerful, jealousy of powerful older brother, overbearing father in son's otherwise perfect life, brother who loves younger brother despite his weirdness, death of a mentor and mentee forging on, betrayal of best friend... A book you could read which contains many of these tropes is the Bible, if you're so inclined  

[Aleksiel]

@Dreamstorm I spend some time researching what other people consider cliches nowadays (any trope can become a cliche or stop being one when it falls out of use) and among the most commonly mentioned were:

• female protagonists doesn't know how hot she is and most male protagonists fall for her
• two characters of the opposite sex start as hating each other only to become lovers
• love triangle

That is obviously personal opinion (mine is focused on the last one), however since those were so often mentioned I'm inclined to think it is representative of a significant (without claiming it's a majority) group of readers, thus Shalladin would be a combination of all three of some of the most commonly mentioned as undesirable tropes. What comes close to the popular guy trope you mentioned was slightly different - a popular guy suddenly falling for a bland girl for no reason, which I can't say applies to Shadolin because Shallan is a very interesting character.

Another thing is the lack of friendships between character of the opposite sex who aren't relatives. I'm hesitant to point this out, because it makes sense in-world - vorinism seems to favor gender segregation and bridgecrews had no women. Still, it would be nice to see one develop. 

32 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

A book you could read which contains many of these tropes is the Bible, if you're so inclined  

This is the most compelling pro-reading the Bible argument I've ever encountered  You convinced me 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

female protagonists doesn't know how hot she is

Um, I'm pretty sure, that Shallan doesn't perceive herself as unattractive.

6 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

two characters of the opposite sex start as hating each other only to become lovers

Well, if the hate phase goes on for long, yeah. It was pretty short for Shallan and Kaladin. I think they were over it after, what 40 - 50 chapters?

And Kaladin generally hates lighteyes for being lighteyes. Yeah, Shallan and him didn't have the best start, but he didn't hate her because she is Shallan, but because she is lighteyed.

6 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

love triangle

Which isn't even given, considering, that Kaladin doesn't even plan to interfere or fight Adolin over Shallan.

Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

@SLNC The same way I could have started arguing Adolin isn't fit for the popular guy trope, because the alethi court was antagonists to his house and no one stood by him. Just because there isn't a 140% match doesn't mean it doesn't fit. 

[Guest]

@Aleksiel yeah doesnt work considering his past dating shenanigans

Adolin was very popular with the ladies

Edited October 10, 2017 by SLNC

[Starla]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Aleksiel I'm not sure how common the "hot/popular/rich jock falls for quirky girl" trope is in epic fantasy, but I'd argue it's used incredibly often in creative works in general (i.e. every teen movie ever.)

This made me think of the old school but still awesome Sixteen Candles, and now I can't get Molly Ringwald as Shallan out of my head. 

[Goatbringer he/him]

Read this theory earlier in the day but it's stuck with me all day so I thought I'd give you a bit of a shout out. From my first readthrough of WoK in 2010 I've been a Shalladin fan and even with the blossoming relationship we're seeing between Adolin and Shallan that has people up in arms I'm still team Shalladin. But in the end, I agree: it won't work out between Shallan and Kaladin.

That being said, I think they could definitely have a nice, steamy hookup scene that they both get weird about later. Too many fantasy novels have characters who see each other, fall in love and get married. Let's have some casual hookups and failed relationships, say I!

[Dreamstorm]

This last installment of the Shallan and Adolin romance definitely goes to Team Shadolin!  For me, this read as by far the most authentic Shallan has ever been with Adolin.  (Nearly gasped when she admitted to him being out in a sketchy part of Urithiru by herself!)  Since I think there's some pretty serious foreshadowing that the relationship is not going to last (at least in the near future) given the obvious Kaladin as future-romantic-interest foreshadowing and even more subtle things like the title to this chapter (Set Up to Fall - I think this doesn't just refer to the Mraize reveal), I'm so, so interested to find out how Sanderson is going to accomplish that.  At some point, he's going to have to pull a dramatic trigger to drive them apart (as a gradual growing apart doesn't seem to be where this is heading...), and I have no clue what that will be.  I find it hard to believe Shallan would be that upset about the Sadeas murder (I don't think it would destroy her thoughts as Adolin as "just, moral and capable"?), but I've been wrong before...  I just have the feeling it will be "something" we don't expect (which, to be clear, is not Shallan falling for Kaladin; will feel let down if that's the only place where we're headed.)  I'm quite excited about the romance (hopefully) leading us to plot points which are not, well, strictly romantic or "character building" in nature. 

Quote

 

• female protagonists doesn't know how hot she is and most male protagonists fall for her
• two characters of the opposite sex start as hating each other only to become lovers
• love triangle

 

@Aleksiel (sorry for not quoting - I couldn't figure out how to type before a quote, grrr) I'm totally with you on 1 and 3 above.  The thing that blows my mind is that books with those cliches are still exceedingly popular and, out of all of the thousands and thousands of books which could be chosen for publication, still chosen because they remain so profitable (i.e. lots of people buy them).  (Victoria Aveyard's Red Queen series and Sarah J. Maas' Throne of Glass series come to mind as best-sellers in recent years which I couldn't finish due to those romantic cliches; both are also well-reviewed.)  I don't mind 2 nearly as much, likely because I have had that happen to me in real life (started out in an antagonistic relationship with someone who became a long-term partner and is still a close personal friend), so to me that seems less like a contrivance and more a scenario that happens due to the way human emotions work.  But, I agree it's a trope that one could (and obviously many do) find cliched.

8 hours ago, Starla said:

This made me think of the old school but still awesome Sixteen Candles, and now I can't get Molly Ringwald as Shallan out of my head. 

I'm wondering if Sanderson watched She's All That for inspiration - kind, rich, popular jock protagonist (check) with father with lots of expectations protagonist's not sure he wants to live up to (check) and odd, interesting sibling (check) meets quirky artistic girl (check) with a witty sidekick (Pattern, check) in a contrived situation (arranged marriage isn't as bad as a bet but let's go with it...check) and after some drama (everstorm, unwanted advances at prom, same thing... check), they live happily ever after 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Aleksiel]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Aleksiel (sorry for not quoting - I couldn't figure out how to type before a quote, grrr)

No worries. The trick I found is to press enter to create a new row and keep my cursor there, then I go to what I want to quote, which creates an empty row followed by a quote. I hope you can make sense of my explanation.

Reading Shallan and Adolin's interactions in OB is  delightful. I don't think she'll be mad Adolin didn't tell her about killing Sadeas because 

Quote

 

“You’re not telling me something.”

“Maybe.”

“Well, thank the Almighty for that.”

“Not… going to ask what it is?”

“Ash’s eyes, no. I’d rather figure it out. A relationship needs some measure of mystery.”

 

and she likely wouldn't judge him too harshly or even at all based on

Quote

My guards. Right. Shallan had a group of soldiers made up of deserters and despicable murderers. She didn’t mind that part, being a despicable murderer herself.

Surprisingly after these chapters I no longer think Shallan finding out about Sadeas murder would be a huge issue between them. It could even motivate Shallan to share with Adolin something about her past, may be her father's murder.

[Guest]

Alright. Time to provide another perspective again.

Genuineness:

I really don't get the feeling, that talking about menstruation makes their interactions more genuine than in WoR. Shallan still acts as she always does. Still constantly swooning over Adolin's looks in her head. Still making constant quips in their conversations, that Adolin still doesn't get.

I mean in WoR they already talked about pooping in Shardplate, menstruation isn't that far off. Their genuinity always was there and I don't see more of it in OB. The thing is what gives the impression, that they are more genuine with each other is, that there are simply more interactions between them than in WoR.

Shallan's possible reaction to Sadeas murder by Adolin's hand:

Alright, so we have these two quotes:

Quote

Shallan poked Adolin in the shoulder with her freehand. “You’re not telling me something.”

“Maybe.”

“Well, thank the Almighty for that.”

“Not… going to ask what it is?”

“Ash’s eyes, no. I’d rather figure it out. A relationship needs some measure of mystery.”

Quote

My guards. Right. Shallan had a group of soldiers made up of deserters and despicable murderers. She didn’t mind that part, being a despicable murderer herself. But she also had no idea what to do with them.

Now, regarding the first quote. Shallan is right of course. We, as human beings, like familiarity in long-term relationships, but also novelty. Which is why we need mystery in relationships. Though the thing is, that these mysteries are supposed to be bound to the personality of the partner. Not the revelation, that Shallan's partner, who might even marry her, is a murderer, who killed a political rival in a fit of rage. I think, that Shallan simply is misunderstanding Adolin's implications.

Second quote: Right, I don't think she might be angry about Adolin killing Sadeas, but she might be angry about his lack of trust in her. She asked twice now and both times Adolin didn't tell her anything. Trust is one of the big pillars of on which a relationship is built.

Which brings me to my last point, the lack of trust between them in general:

They still don't confide in each other. Adolin doesn't speak about his worries, Shallan doesn't speak about her worries. They are in a genuine relationship, yes, but only on a superficial level.

Like here. Adolin asks Shallan, if she really thinks, that Adolin is like Dalinar. She does. Adolin doesn't like that and shuts down again.

Quote

He tucked away his map and gestured for Vathah to lead the way. “Do you really think I’m like my father?” Adolin said softly as they walked. There was a worried sense to his voice.

“You are,” she said, pulling his arm tight. “You’re just like him, Adolin. Moral, just, and capable.”

He frowned.

“What?”

“Nothing.”

“You’re a terrible liar. You’re worried you can’t live up to his expectations, aren’t you?”

“Maybe.”

“Well you have, Adolin. You have lived up to them in every way. I’m certain Dalinar Kholin couldn’t hope for a better son, and… storms. That idea bothers you.”

“What? No!”

The constant maybes. The constant denial.

The constant fear of even revealing their feelings.

They might have been able to work through it, but they don't seem to be even willing to do that. They had plenty of opportunity by now and they don't even try.

Their genuine demeanor in their interactions is great and all, but I still remain unconvinced, that it can form a basis for a good long-term relationship.

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

@SLNC I actually see the "period talk" as a bad fact for Shadolin.  I've read enough annotations to know that Sanderson likes to ask for other perspectives from those he is close to in order to build realistic characters, and I can see him asking his wife what is the most annoying thing a man could do... and blaming anything (irritability, tiredness, etc.) on it being "that time of the month" is wayyyyyy up there.  Sure, a woman can use it as an explanation (or excuse), but a man bringing it up is ughhhhhhh.  (Obviously my personal feelings heavily influence this view )

That aside, I still think this is the most genuine we've seen Shallan portrayed around Adolin.  Not really the banter part, but the fact she's a total mess and not presenting her best self appearance-wise (that seems to be important to her - she wants to look as good as possible to match how hot she finds him) and admitting she was doing a shady activity.  Now, I agree all of the "issues" one can point to in the relationship are still there - he doesn't ask what she found out in her adventure, doesn't get her (kind of stupid) quip or even realize it was a quip, and he's really just involving her the way he's involved other romantic interests in the past - dragging the girl along on his investigations (i.e. that girl he took on the girth investigation in WoK.)  But, I still saw this as a "relationship building" scene rather than a "relationship diminishing" scene due to Shallon's opening up.  Since I firmly believe this relationship is not going to last (a bait and switch to throw out the Kaladin romantic angle entirely would be really shoddy plotting and I personally think Sanderson won't do the "Kaladin gets jilted by a lighteyed girl" angle again since Laral served that purpose), I'm now hoping this means the catalyst of the breakup will be more interesting than "Adolin and Shallan do not fit well" (an argument I'm on the fence about myself.)  But, this may be wishful thinking 

Re. Sadeas, I don't agree that Shallan will be personally offended that Adolin didn't tell her about the Sadeas killing.  She isn't truthful to really anyone and doesn't seem to expect people be truthful back to her.  I do absolutely agree that in general lack of trust and sharing in any relationship is a problem (hence why I see sharing the alley adventures as a positive sign), but I don't see this revelation as the "something" which will break them.  And I am starting to really think (and hope - hope is a bad thing!) that the "something" will be unexpected (i.e. exciting to read.)

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I do absolutely agree that in general lack of trust and sharing in any relationship is a problem (hence why I see sharing the alley adventures as a positive sign), but I don't see this revelation as the "something" which will break them. 

Yeah, I don't see that happening either. It's "just another brick in the wall" to quote Pink Floyd.

49 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But, I still saw this as a "relationship building" scene rather than a "relationship diminishing" scene due to Shallon's opening up.

I just saw is as neither building or diminishing. It was just... more of the same. I also didn't really see Shallan opening up... She just was like she always is. Yeah, she told him about her investigations, but no real details. Just the bare minimum so he doesn't ask any questions. I don't know if that is good or bad, but I'm leaning to the latter.

I just don't see any progress happening between them, aside from them being sweet together, but that was always the case.

Edited October 11, 2017 by SLNC

[Alderant she/her]

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

That aside, I still think this is the most genuine we've seen Shallan portrayed around Adolin.  Not really the banter part, but the fact she's a total mess and not presenting her best self appearance-wise (that seems to be important to her - she wants to look as good as possible to match how hot she finds him) and admitting she was doing a shady activity.

For Shallan, this is actually not that genuine. I can't think of a single time when she really cares about her appearance around anyone, beyond the modest and religious implications. When Adolin pops up a few chapters before, she's not upset that he's seeing her in a mess, but that she is immodest. She was a mess when she was before the slavers in WoR, she was a mess after the chasm sequence, and not once in any of those instances does she really exhibit a care about how she is perceived.

As far as being genuine here, I believe she is actually at her most genuine with him when she is complementing how he is like his father. Yet, as SLNC pointed out:

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan still acts as she always does. Still constantly swooning over Adolin's looks in her head. Still making constant quips in their conversations, that Adolin still doesn't get.

Also, regarding Sadeas's murder:

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

Though the thing is, that these mysteries are supposed to be bound to the personality of the partner. Not the revelation, that Shallan's partner, who might even marry her, is a murderer, who killed a political rival in a fit of rage. I think, that Shallan simply is misunderstanding Adolin's implications.

Second quote: Right, I don't think she might be angry about Adolin killing Sadeas, but she might be angry about his lack of trust in her. She asked twice now and both times Adolin didn't tell her anything. Trust is one of the big pillars of on which a relationship is built.

I like how SLNC put things here. I bolded what I especially thought was applicable, but regarding the general "oh Shallan won't care because of--" lines I keep hearing, you have to take into account her trauma as well. No matter how much someone loves/likes/appreciates someone, if that person does something that reminds them of a traumatic event they are likely to freak out. I freaked out on my wife once because she hung up the phone during a fight (our equivalent to walking out the door) early in our marriage because I have abandonment issues from a previous girlfriend.

Let me say it again: Shallan's father beat and killed several of his servants and Shallan's stepmother in fits of rage. No matter how she feels about Adolin, that is going to trigger the fear she felt during that time of her life. Do I think it's a deal-breaker, no. I think if the two could open up and be honest with each other, that they could work through it and be a strong couple. But they aren't. They came to the precipice, but backed down.

The reason I see this revelation as being a bad thing for them is twofold: (1) Shallan is going to ultimately withdraw from Adolin as her fears and own mental problems compound on each other, and (2) Adolin will be emotionally weak and vulnerable after this revelation, and I don't know that Shallan is going to be capable of offering him the support he needs, and with his tendency to pull away, he will withdraw from her after being hurt. Lesser things have happened that caused couples to break apart.

Edit: I just reread that and it came across odd to me. That part about my wife and I was simply a real-world example that I had readily at hand. Sorry if I sounded weird.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Alderant

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Alderant said:

(1) Shallan is going to ultimately withdraw from Adolin as her fears and own mental problems compound on each other, and (2) Adolin will be emotionally weak and vulnerable after this revelation, and I don't know that Shallan is going to be capable of offering him the support he needs, and with his tendency to pull away, he will withdraw from her after being hurt. Lesser things have happened that caused couples to break apart.

To (1): I... don't think it would result in a withdrawal on her side, but it will change her and probably also her peception of Adolin. Especially on her viewing him as just and she might even begin to question his morals, when she is reminded about how her father treated their staff and brothers. But that needn't be a dealbreaker.

Note: I don't have an exact opinion, whether killing Sadeas was morally right or wrong, but I think, that Shallan might draw a negative conclusion, simply because she may draw the connection to her father. (Killing in rage)

To (2): Definitely. I absolutely think, that Adolin will withdraw into himself, when confronted.

But Adolin getting distant could be even more devastating for their relationship, due to the simple fact, that Adolin is the one, who is courting Shallan. I can't remember a single instance, where Shallan went to Adolin on her own volition, except when she ran into him on random occasion. He always went to her. So, should Adolin get withdrawn, I would be very surprised, if Shallan would make a step forward towards him. Especially regarding her strict views on being modest and maintaining the social rules.

Edited October 12, 2017 by SLNC

[Alderant she/her]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I... don't think it would result in a withdrawal on her side, but it will change her and probably also her peception of Adolin.

That's what I mean by withdraw. I don't mean she's going to just pull away and ignore him (we haven't really seen that kind of behavior from her before--usually if there's a problem between her and someone else, she confronts it), but I think, on a subconscious level, she's going to have a harder time being "normal" around him with everything going on in her head.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't have an exact opinion, whether killing Sadeas was morally right or wrong, but I think, that Shallan might draw a negative conclusion, simply because she may draw the connection to her father. (Killing in rage)

Agreed. 100%. The murder itself is in a very morally gray area.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

But Adolin getting distant could be even more devastating for their relationship, due to the simple fact, that Adolin is the one, who is courting Shallan. I can't remember a single instance, where Shallan went to Adolin on her own volition, except when she ran into him on random occasion. He always went to her. So, should Adolin get withdrawn, I would be very surprised, if Shallan would make a step forward towards him. Especially regarding her strict views on being modest and maintaining the social rules.

Ooh. Good point. I hadn't considered that angle.

Adolin's withdrawal from her could be a damaging blow to either Shallan's own sense of self-worth or as confirmation of her own fears about herself.

Have a cookie.