[OB] Shallan is Insane - and I can prove it.

[+Wax he/him]

Shallan is mad.  Brandon provides foreshadowing in WoR.

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“He doesn’t seem angry,” Pattern said. “But you call him mad.”

“‘Mad’ has two definitions,” Shallan said. “One means to be angry. The other means broken in the head.”....... 

Shallan inched forward, and found he was back to whispering the same things as before. She dismissed the Blade.

Mother’s soul . . .

“Shallan?” Pattern asked. “Shallan, are you mad?”

She shook herself. How much time had passed? “Yes,” she said, walking hurriedly for the door.

3

Here's another one

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He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy...

 

 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

3 hours ago, axcellence said:

Shallan is mad.  Brandon provides foreshadowing in WoR.

Shallan running herself down isn't proof that she's crazy. I could do the same thing with Kaladin, more or less.

[OathKeeper]

12 hours ago, Aminar said:

That would be a truly ludicrous and offensive character arc. It, along with Renarin going evil, would actually stop me from reading Sanderson. 

That's not how DID works. You don't create a character and then it "takes over" The effects of the disorder are 100% involuntary. And really nothing like what we're talking about. Pop culture multiple personalities are stupidly wrong, but then putting the onus for the disorder on the people suffering from it like that... 

Brandon is smarter than that. He does his research better than that. 

Her character arc might very well be learning not to use these characters, and to be comfortable in her own skin. That would be fine. But the way you're talking about it. No. 

I apologize for any offense you've taken, but I never meant that this speculative Shallan arc would be representative of real life DID. I agree that attributing a fictional character's fictional behavior to an actual disorder that it does not accurately resemble can be harmful. Still, said arc would be interesting to me, far as it may be from DID or any other real mental illness. I personally don't think it's cheesey or cliche, but we all consume different media so to each his own.

I don't think it's wrong to draw comparisons to disorders that it would--very very loosely--resemble though. It helps to have some real life parallel, even if they're quite different in many regards. My point: I'm not saying she has DID. 

 

[+Wax he/him]

10 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Shallan running herself down isn't proof that she's crazy. I could do the same thing with Kaladin, more or less.

It’s not Shallan who is running herself down.  It is Brandon, the author, who is hinting about this.

Maybe you should do that re Kaladin.  With him, it’s more “that’s crazy” rather than “I am crazy”.  Most time people and Kaladin are commenting on his dark demeanour.

[Aminar]

4 hours ago, OathKeeper said:

I apologize for any offense you've taken, but I never meant that this speculative Shallan arc would be representative of real life DID. I agree that attributing a fictional character's fictional behavior to an actual disorder that it does not accurately resemble can be harmful. Still, said arc would be interesting to me, far as it may be from DID or any other real mental illness. I personally don't think it's cheesey or cliche, but we all consume different media so to each his own.

I don't think it's wrong to draw comparisons to disorders that it would--very very loosely--resemble though. It helps to have some real life parallel, even if they're quite different in many regards. My point: I'm not saying she has DID. 

 

I'm not offended by you hypothesizing on it. I have no right to expect you to be educated on the subject. There's too much to know and too much pop culture misinformation for that. But I do expect Brandon to be smart about his portrayals of mental illness. He's a professional. (And has researched depression, autism, and trauma very well so far, setting up that expectation)

And while it isn't DID it's too close. Alternate personalities created due to a traumatic experience taking over a person's life is basically the Hollywood standard. And it's always wrong. But the way you did it took things a step further away from the truth and into a very blame the victim place. Hence saying it would be offensive if printed. 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

47 minutes ago, axcellence said:

It’s not Shallan who is running herself down.  It is Brandon, the author, who is hinting about this.

Those are both quotes from Shallan, the character, commenting about herself. Her self-esteem of course plays a role.

Besides, colloquially referring to yourself as crazy in a self-deprecating fashion is incredibly common; haven't you heard anybody say, "You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps"? Those folks aren't actually requesting a diagnosis.

[kari-no-sugata]

14 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Those are both quotes from Shallan, the character, commenting about herself. Her self-esteem of course plays a role.

Besides, colloquially referring to yourself as crazy in a self-deprecating fashion is incredibly common; haven't you heard anybody say, "You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps"? Those folks aren't actually requesting a diagnosis.

That's how I saw it too... though I also think she's being semi-serious. She definitely considers herself to be "broken". I think it's highly likely that she doesn't consider herself to be quite sane but has decided to not let that hold her back from achieving the things she wants to do.

[aemetha he/him]

Well, here's the thing with Shallan possibly considering herself insane - that's not an evaluation we get to make for ourselves, because we cannot be objective about it.

If we take insane in this instance to mean mentally disordered (which I'm doing because the original post suggested as much by relating the assessment back to the field of psychology), then that simply means that a persons behaviours, cognitions, emotions and motivations fall outside the established norms in said culture that make up the established ordered behaviour. Those norms do vary by culture, for example, schizophrenia in western society is largely the go to thought when someone thinks of a serious mental disorder, however there are cultures in the world that largely view the symptoms of schizophrenia less as a mental disorder and more as being blessed. There is some validity to that despite evidence of neurological differences in people with schizophrenia, when the social stigma is removed from the disorder the sufferer experiences significantly less impairment or distress, which would in some cases by our medical definitions remove it as a mental disorder. A similar observation can be found in France where diagnosis of ADHD is far less prevalent than in countries such as the US, because the behaviour is largely seen to be a symptom of a dysfunctional family and is treated (successfully) in that way.

So, the question really becomes not whether Shallan is declaring herself insane, but whether her behaviours, cognitions, emotions and motivations fall outside the established norms of her culture as noted by an objective observer? I really don't think they do. She gets on well with others, she demonstrates particular attention to accepted cultural norms, she is strikingly ordinary really, particularly when one considers the trauma she has experienced. She can take care of herself, and by virtue of the coping mechanisms she employs function in a perfectly acceptable manner. If it were up to ourselves to declare our own impairment, the world would be made up entirely of the disordered.

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, aemetha said:

If it were up to ourselves to declare our own impairment, the world would be made up entirely of the disordered.

Ain't that the truth. 

[DiamondMind he/him]

So with the latest chapters Shallan does seem to be going down the route of these coping mechanisms in a harmful way. Pattern begins to get worried about it and she starts to act a little bit crazy. Well, more crazy. Stabbing herself through the hand? Really? Not knowing whether or not she killed her brothers?

@Aminar @aemetha As for the DSM discussions...I don't think BS is taking this in the direction of DID. I agree that using these different personas are avoidance mechanisms in order to not deal with intense anxiety. I've always identified with Shallan because of her anxiety, though of course I've never been through anything as bad as she had. These personas can help in the moment, but they become harmful (or maladaptive) really quickly. It goes on for long enough and you start to lose yourself in all the different masks you wear. She's lost her first strategy for coping with the anxiety, avoiding the thought entirely, avoiding anything that might even remind her of what happened. In WoR more than once she deliberately blanks out her mind to avoid thinking. It's not like she forgot she killed her mother, she just decided never to think about it again. That's been taken away from her. She can no longer avoid the anxiety by not thinking. Not only because of her truth, but because of the situations her position puts her in. So she's resorting to this second and arguably more harmful coping mechanism. She's not just doing it when her anxiety is particularly debilitating, but all the time. If she continues doing so, she will begin to deteriorate.  

[Guest]

The way Shallan/Veil acted in the tavern was so un-Shallan... She's completely losing it and is planning to push it even further... I'm really worried.

[TheDarkDesperado he/him]

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Yeah, was a bit on the fence about this but at this point Shallan is diving headfirst into dangerous and unhealthy coping mechanisms. I have some personal experience with unhealthy coping mechanisms, the longer it goes the harder it is to break and the more the deeper problem(s) will fester. She needs help big time.

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, SLNC said:

The way Shallan/Veil acted in the tavern was so un-Shallan... She's completely losing it and is planning to push it even further... I'm really worried.

I disagree. It started as naivety, which is 100% Shallan. Then once she realized how to exploit her stormlight in the situation she used it to play on expectations. I found the whole thing quite clever. Something Shallan has always been. If anything this arc is going to be her recognizing just how competent she is and that she doesn't need any mental tricks to be deviously effective as a spy. 

[Alderant she/her]

Okay. Lots of stuff to digest in this thread.

On 9/26/2017 at 5:24 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to what Shallan is doing with Veil and Brightness Radiant, I common problem I see with people talking about that is to treat them as permanent and maybe even uncontrollable personalities that sit along side Shallan. They are not. Shallan intentionally made them to solve specific problems. She is fully in control of them. They are completely subordinate. They are not "active" permanently. They do not become active involuntarily or accidentally. Shallan herself develops them as well.

If Shallan is insane for just that by itself then all method actors are insane.

Putting it another way: if nobody else can tell that Shallan is insane, is she still insane?

Pretty much all of her life Shallan has had to teach herself how to solve problems. Her extreme actions come from her being in a situation where she has to solve extreme problems. Her methods are not always the best but they work at least. She created Veil as a disguise to more safely infiltrate the Ghostbloods. She created Brightness Radiant so that she could bear to wield Pattern as a Shardblade. She does not need or use these personas on a day to day basis - as far as we know this chapter is the first time since her last POV chapter in WoR that she made use of Veil (maybe 10 days?). They are not a coping mechanism in the proper sense of the phrase (as I understand it).

On 9/27/2017 at 2:00 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I think that what Shallan is doing here is similar to method acting. Anyone disagree? (There are known dangers to method acting of course and they seem somewhat similar to some of the concerns people have about what Shallan is doing...)

Argh. No. Just no. While you are correct that these are not separate entities meshed into one body (the most abstractly simplified description of DID I can think of), Shallan is NOT method acting here. This isn't just Shallan picking up and putting down a role for various circumstances. This is Shallan seriously cultivating separate identities to avoid her pain. Yes, Veil was originally created to deal with the Ghostbloods, but as the most recent chapters have shown, she is using Veil to avoid her problems. Brightness Radiant is a whole other can of worms--created not to simply wield her Patternblade, but created specifically as a Shallan-like identity without all of the trauma that doesn't have the pain, but it's not a separate person, like Veil. It's who Shallan might have been, which is why she has a hard time keeping it consistent, because it's too similar to her Shallan identity. We also can infer from the recent chapters that she has, in fact been practicing Veil during her stay in Urithiru, since she's getting much better at making sounds with her Lightweaving.

On 9/26/2017 at 6:41 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

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How long before these personas aren't under her control ? I agree right now is not that difficult for her to manage them, but what will happen when she will make more? It's not sustainable to make a diffrent persona for every problem she's afraid to face.

Why is it the default assumption that the personas will go out of control? Is it even a safe assumption that she will make more and more personas that she uses regularly? If so, why? She doesn't create them just for fun but to solve really difficult problems - problems that Shallan cannot handle. Those don't turn up very often as she's very good at problem solving. It's not like she's inventing a new persona just to do the chores or something.

To address what @mariapapadia said: I don't think the concern is that Shallan's personalities will develop their own cognitive identity. The concern is that, by pretending to be someone else, Shallan will begin to act and do things as those separate people. Veil becomes different from Shallan. A boy starts flirting with Veil and so Veil strings him along, separate from Shallan and Adolin. Brightness Radiant becomes Shallan's escape from Shallan's pain, and becomes the identity everyone sees interacting with Shallan the Radiant. And yes, @kari-no-sugata, she will continue to create personas as she feels she needs them, and every persona she creates makes the next one easier to justify, hence the fear that these personas will "spiral out of control".

On 9/26/2017 at 9:55 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

Back in college I had social anxiety specific to public speaking.  I never truly got comfortable with public speaking due to my inherently perfectionist tendencies and over active imagination regarding things that could go wrong, but I did teach myself a silly psychological trick similar to what Shallan is doing here.  I merely "pretended" that I was a slightly different person, modifying my behavior and thought patterns to act more like a close friend who was extremely self-confident.  I never truly overcame my self-doubts, but I was able to temporarily "play a role" that allowed my mind to ignore the counterproductive anxious thoughts in my head.  This worked reasonably well for me, and based on cursory google searches a lot of other individuals use similar methods to deal with challenging situations.  Shallan's basically method acting a version of herself that is slightly more like Jasnah.

This and that are a little different, though you are correct to a degree. I would bet, however, that in college you didn't attach a name to your public speaking pretension. What Shallan is doing is more than a psychological trick for anxiety--Shallan has some very deep mental health issues going on, and rather than dealing with them she is running away from the problem. Also, in the very same scene she creates Radiant, she begins thinking of Radiant as a separate identity, and one she plans to use more often.

On 9/27/2017 at 3:25 AM, aemetha said:

As is pointed out above, dissociative identity disorder is an unconscious protective response, which is quite different from what Shallan is doing, which would best be described as an avoidance stress coping technique. Generally speaking avoidance stress coping techniques are considered adaptive in the short term as they shield the person from sudden overwhelming trauma but may become maladaptive in the longer term if appropriate approach techniques for coping with the stressor are not employed.

This. Right here. Bolded for emphasis with relation to the importance of what Shallan is doing.

On 9/27/2017 at 2:09 PM, mariapapadia said:

The last thing Shallan said to Pattern in WoR is "I hate you" and that she wants her family back. The first time we see her in OB, she is ignoring Pattern and finding excuses that the Blade and him are different. Each time he tries to open the subject of her mother's death she goes in denial, so much that she has to create another persona in order to stand using him as a sword. Sorry, but I don't see improvement, I see someone that is avoiding the truth. 

On 9/27/2017 at 2:09 PM, mariapapadia said:

I don't get the same feeling from Radiant. Why? Because Radiant came from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth and I feel like it can be really easy for her to get lost in that. In a comfort place where she doesn't have to come to terms with the fact that she killed her parents and her spren, her powers and what she is facilitated that. What would stop her for leaving Shallan behind and embrace this new composed persona ? I am not saying is happening, but that is very possible and easy to do. This is why I am worried for her. 

Another example of Shallan's avoidance behavior. She's trying to cognitively separate Pattern the Spren, from Pattern the Blade, which is reflected in trying to separate Shallan from Radiant. This is dangerous stuff.

On 9/28/2017 at 1:50 AM, aemetha said:

The circumstance as written so far is not maladaptive, there is no observable harm to Shallan created and there is an observable reduction in harm suffered. It is not a band-aid, it is a rational response to her situation. Could it at some point become maladaptive? Absolutely, but the comparison to alcoholism as a treatment for depression is a false equivalency. As an aside, depression is also a stress related illness, so an insistence that an unpalatable approach technique is the only valid response to stress would in all likelihood contribute to a worsening of a persons depression, not an improvement. In such a case the person should be encouraged to seek more adaptive avoidance techniques (i.e. if they can't confront the problem they should find a way to avoid the problem that doesn't cause them more harm).

I would disagree with the first statement here. Were it simply a response to the Blade, and that was the only use for Radiant, I would agree with you. But the main concern is this line here:

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I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.

This hints at some maladaption already in the works.

Second, stress can be a trigger for depression, but not always, and though you certainly have more expertise with psychiatry and psychology than I do, I have depression and can tell you that it's not as much stress-related as it is a sort of cognitive-disconnect. It's not like anxiety, where you can avoid situations that "worsen" your depression and it gets better, it can come suddenly, abruptly, and for no reason whatsoever. Avoidance is not good for people with depression--it actually worsens the symptoms, because depression interferes with your ability to see the good in things. Avoidance is like admitting your depressed self is right. :/

On 9/28/2017 at 8:16 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

I'd say the way you're characterising why Shallan created Radiant is misleading - she wasn't created "from a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth", she was created to be a calm and pragmatic version of Shallan who could deal with the immediate situation. I think the chapter in question lays it out quite clearly that her only realistic alternatives were to physically run away or to have a complete mental breakdown.

I think you're the confused one:

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Shallan scrambled through the room to the small mirror she’d hung from the wall. She stared at herself, eyes wide, hair an utter mess. She’d started breathing in sharp, quick gasps. “I can’t—” she said. “I can’t be this person, Pattern. I can’t just wield the sword. Some brilliant knight on a tower, pretending she should be followed.”

Pattern hummed softly a tone she’d come to recognize as confusion. The bewilderment of one species trying to comprehend the mind of another.

Sweat trickled down Shallan’s face, running beside her eye as she stared at herself. What did she expect to see? The thought of breaking down in front of Adolin heightened her tension. Her every muscle grew taut, and the corners of her vision started to darken. She could see only before herself, and she wanted to run, go somewhere. Be away.

No. No, just be someone else.

Hands shaking, she scrambled over and dug out her drawing pad. She ripped pages, flinging them out of the way to reach an empty one, then seized her charcoal pencil.

Pattern moved over to her, a floating ball of shifting lines, buzzing in concern. “Shallan? Please. What is wrong?”

I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.

This very clearly indicates she is in "a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth." Whether or not her alternatives were terrible, it's very much from a place of fear.

 

[Guest]

Wanted to add another stake regarding Shallan rapidly developing a dissociative identity disorder.

It is a self-quote from the chapter 28-30 thread in response to someone saying, that Shallan recognizing Shallan as "another persona" could be a good thing. I don't believe so.

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Shallan shows definite symptoms of a dissociative identity disorder.

In DIDs there are generally two types of personalities: the host personality, which is the most prominent one in the system of personalities, and alters, which are the less prominent ones.

Now, I believe, that Shallan always had some kind of disturbed sense of self-identity and vulnerability to personality disorders due to her traumatic childhood, but coped through the repression of her memories. If I look back to the first flashback chapter in WoR "Red Carpet, Once White", she calls herself a monster, not worthy of the affection Lin gives her, but that changes in the following times, while she represses the memories of her mother. In the next flashback, she begins to think about her mother and suddenly the thoughts are snuffed out like a candle, like she can't access those memories anymore, suggesting psychogenic amnesia, which is defined as memory loss without any organic cause, like brain damage.

During that time, she had no reason to create alters and thus remained Shallan, her host personality. This is important. She is Shallan. Sure, Shallan is broken, Shallan is traumatized, but Shallan also is strong, Shallan is determined. Shallan was shaped through the events in her life. Shallan is not just another mask. Shallan is not an alter.

But then Pattern confronted her with with her past and the floodgates were open. She begins to create an alter to cope with the psychological pain to hold Patternblade - Radiant. Veil starts out as a disguise, but Shallan soon decides to push Shallan even farther into the background, because she has this skewed sense of self-identity, that she is too weak to handle the stuff Veil handles. Thus Veil becomes another alter. She begins to constantly slide between those alters (this is called "switching" by psychologists), which indicates a more severe DID, than before.

Note: creation of alters to cope with stressful situations, the host retreating in favor of alters, which are perceived as more capable and the phenomenon of "switching" are all deemed to be symptoms of DID by the scientific community.

The problem I have with Shallan seeing Shallan as "another mask" is, that she begins to forget the important distinction between her host personality (Shallan) and the alters (Radiant and Veil). In therapy for DID, therapists often deal with the host personality and one of the first goals is that the host personality identifies the alters and distinguishes her own from them. Shallan is taking a step into the completely different direction, if she continues on this course.

 

[king of nowhere]

I think at this point there is no need to prove shallan insane, the burden of proof is for claiming she's fine.

[TheDarkDesperado he/him]

8 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I think at this point there is no need to prove shallan insane, the burden of proof is for claiming she's fine.

Well said. When she has begins seeing herself as just another mask proofing she's fine becomes an uphill battle.

[LunarFire]

This is very interesting. I think the word "insane" is never really applicable but I like where you are going with all this. 

The basis of Freud's ideas of trauma comes from something terrible happening around the age of 7. Subsequently, in the current psychological DSM, if a person experiences intense trauma before the age of 7 they are likely to experience Disassociative Identity Disorder (or Multiple Personality Disorder as it was once known as). If a person experiences intense trauma after the age of 7 they are likely to experience PTSD. The reason DID develops is because the brain younger than age 7 is plastic enough to create "shards", so to speak, of their consciousness in order to protect the young child. This may result in multiple different complete personalities that in turn help the person deal with traumatic situations, and then further help them cope with the rest of their lives. Shallan most likely experienced severe trauma around age 7. 

It is clear Shallan experiences multiple personalities. She has Radiant and Veil to help her with her tasks that she feels her "host" self is unable to accomplish. One thing that happens with DID is that the "host" person may have times of their lives they have completely disassociated and cannot remember. We see that when Shallan asks Pattern if she killed her brothers; she has most likely experienced this type of disassociation, or at least knows she is capable of it. (On a personal note, I know a person I have worked that found out years later that due to trauma that forced her to disassociate- she gave birth to a child in her early teenage years and didn't remember the experience until decades later- the brain is an incredible thing). The way people "heal" from DID is they work with a therapist to integrate their personalities into their core selves, being able to live productive lives moving forward. Many people with DID explain the personalities are a benefit to their lives when they've learned to work with them instead of against them. Shallan obviously has much "illness" when it comes to her compartmentalizing of her personalities, but we also see how they are an asset to her and may help her work through many of her issues.

Sanderson has mentioned before that he uses a lot of psychology in his books (it's what draws me to them in the first place) and it would make sense he would incorporate DID. Trauma is a fascinating thing and we can see the way it plays out in both Kaladin and Shallan. 

The whole idea of Jungian Archetypes is that they show up in literature, culture, religion etc... over and over again. It makes sense Sanderson would utilize these archetypes and the idea of personas (masks) with Shallan.

I'm so glad I found this thread, I've been thinking about this A LOT.  

 

EDIT: I realize this is being discussed in depth in the thread. I'd like to add 1. This is a fictional character, she is not going to exactly have the diagnosis of DID, however it is interesting to look at it in this context because DID is a way people work through trauma that occured at a young age. 2. People cannot develop DID past 7 years old. I think looking at the flashbacks of Shallan from WoR under the lens of her experiencing symptoms of DID and PTSD (not speaking is one I can think of off the top of my head) gives an interesting perspective on how she's dealing with stress now. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by LunarFire
add extra.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

On 10/6/2017 at 5:28 PM, Alderant said:

This and that are a little different, though you are correct to a degree. I would bet, however, that in college you didn't attach a name to your public speaking pretension.

Real people don't need to internally differentiate which roles they adopt for the benefit of a reader. Fictional characters do.

[adbf he/him]

Is it possible, that Shallan is meant to go in her fight with her trauma not on the way of catharsis, but by sublimation? After all isn't sublimation what Freud most often considered in connection to Art as such? While catharsis… Shallan already had many occasions when her circumstances literally shrieked in demand for a catharsis, e.g. when she was appalled by Jasnah killing the foodpads, or when she realised what Kabsal did to her. It was not her way however to experience catharsis. Instead she used the stress to improvise some new decision, and after that the trauma was not cleansed by catharsis, but Shallan moved in such a state, that the stress stopped to be traumatic for her. So, sublimation vs catharsis: is it feasible?

[Alderant she/her]

14 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Real people don't need to internally differentiate which roles they adopt for the benefit of a reader. Fictional characters do.

I'm sure you didn't mean that to come off as abrasive as it sounded...

What we are talking about here is wholly separate from simply differentiating "roles" like we might do around friends and family--changes that are so minute within us we don't need to internally differentiate them, which I assume is what you're referring to. What Shallan is doing is magnitudes more detailed and complicated than what you imply by your oversimplification here.

And real people do internally differentiate their roles when those roles are as dynamic as Shallan's. Subvisual Haze mentioned specifically method-acting, which is somewhat akin to what Shallan is doing, though hers comes from a different place and for a different purpose. She has multiple personas she assumes, each a fully fleshed out identity with its own history that is separate in Shallan's mind from her own. Adding an identity (name) to that persona is a very practical and real-world method of differentiating which "role" she is assuming in a situation like this. Regardless of the fact that Shallan is a fictional character, what she goes through is reflective of real-world trauma and psychological breakdowns, as the most recent chapters have indicated. Hence my remark that "This and that are a little different."

Edited November 3, 2017 by Alderant

[aemetha he/him]

I think what Shallan is doing is something only possible for a character in a fantasy novel with the same or a similar set of abilities. What I am certain of however is that it cannot be compared with DID because of the simple fact that Shallan is consciously choosing it. DID is an unconscious response to trauma, it is not something that is at any point consciously chosen by the sufferer.

[Morsk he/him]

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

I think what Shallan is doing is something only possible for a character in a fantasy novel with the same or a similar set of abilities. What I am certain of however is that it cannot be compared with DID because of the simple fact that Shallan is consciously choosing it. DID is an unconscious response to trauma, it is not something that is at any point consciously chosen by the sufferer.

I also think it's magical; she's using her powers to cope, in a dysfucntional way. Like an addiction, or personality disorder, but one we don't have on Earth. I don't think she has PTSD because she's too high-functioning. Or maybe "real Shallan" has PTSD, and she uses magic to make personas that don't have it.

Her memory "loss" is just denial; there's no need for fancier explanations. We see her PoV, as she approaches painful memories, then puts them out of mind and carries on as if nothing happened. That's denial. Repressed memories probably aren't real, but if they were, they're supposed to be something the person is completely unaware of. Shallan knows what happened, but avoids it.

[Aminar]

27 minutes ago, Morsk said:

I also think it's magical; she's using her powers to cope, in a dysfucntional way. Like an addiction, or personality disorder, but one we don't have on Earth. I don't think she has PTSD because she's too high-functioning. Or maybe "real Shallan" has PTSD, and she uses magic to make personas that don't have it.

Her memory "loss" is just denial; there's no need for fancier explanations. We see her PoV, as she approaches painful memories, then puts them out of mind and carries on as if nothing happened. That's denial. Repressed memories probably aren't real, but if they were, they're supposed to be something the person is completely unaware of. Shallan knows what happened, but avoids it.

I agree except that she's not too high functioning for PTSD. PTSD is weird(in that its not what people expect, like most mental illness). People with it cycle through functioning and not at seemingly random. Some people with it never really don't function, they just end up terrified at random points. 

But like you said she doesn't have memory loss. Just repression. Just memories she doesn't want that she refuses to have. 

More than that, the whole alternate personality thing is just wrong. Movies make it way more dramatic than it is. It's mostly just timeskips where a person doesn't remember what happened and they're less inhibited. None of this adding a new name to change my behavior mind game stuff Shallan is playing with herself. 

[king of nowhere]

I just got a random idea: since the various facets of shalllan can be called different people, they could also entertain different relationship. Shallan is a good fit with adolin, but veil is more kaladin's type, thus ending the shadolin/shalladin argument. radiant is more pragmatic, and could go for a political marriage instead; I suggest amaram, it makes more sense to reunite with an enemy that way.

And she is good enough at talking that she may actually manage to persuade all parties involved to play along with it