joesleepsalot he/him Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 He doesn't need to be a big player, but we definitely get the vibe that he will be involved in the big picture. Take hoid for instance... his scenes clearly convey big picture/cosmere without making the reader feel like they're clueless about something. I think Sanderson has the skill to replicate that in keslsier.... especially since he's already done it in hoid. Id be willing to bet that Kelsier and Kaladin will meet. They're essentially a "type" of each other: -both names start with K -both are very quick learners and superbly skilled with their investiture -both are extremely good fighters -both were abused and mistreated to the point of madness -both gave up on life -both came back stronger than ever -both are concerned about the greater good -both have honor (character trait not shard) -both hold the welfare of their crews/troops above their own -both are flawed role models (just human) -neither was romantically involved during the events of the story (minus Kelsier's past) -kelsier treats Vin the way Kaladin treats new recruits -kelsier is now "mobile"and knows how to see other places -kelsier knows about the shards -kelsier talks to harmony, who's fully aware of Odium. Logical to assume kelsier knows what's going on. Plus kelsier and hoid have met, and kelsier's inquisitive nature won't rest until he's at the center of events. My two cents: Sanderson doesn't waste words or time. We are waaaaaay too invested in Kelsier and his arc for him to just go away. Same with Kaladin. I think the third mistborn trilogy will see some crossover.
Necessary Eagle she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 If Nale ends up going to Urithiru, I can't see it ending well. I think Darkness's moment of clarity at the end of Edgedancer was just that- a moment. If it was that easy to permanently snap the Heralds out of their madness, I think it would have happened at some point during their thousands of years of wandering. He may have accepted that his old goal is obsolete- even wrong- but that doesn't mean he'll be any saner in applying his new goal.
Stormlightning she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 52 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said: If Nale ends up going to Urithiru, I can't see it ending well. I think Darkness's moment of clarity at the end of Edgedancer was just that- a moment. If it was that easy to permanently snap the Heralds out of their madness, I think it would have happened at some point during their thousands of years of wandering. He may have accepted that his old goal is obsolete- even wrong- but that doesn't mean he'll be any saner in applying his new goal. I don't believe it was just a moment, because in Brandon's postscript he mentions that Nale went through some big mindset changes before we jump into book three, and that half the reason he wrote Edgedancer is because he didn't feel it was right for that to happen offscreen. He implied that when we see Nale in Oathbringer, he'll be doing things very differently than he was before.
Necessary Eagle she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 "By the time we see him again in [Oathbringer], the Herald Nale will have accepted that his work of many centuries (watching and making sure the Radiants don't return) is no longer relevant. This is a major shift in who he is and in his goals as an individual..." IMO, that doesn't preclude him being crazy in an entire new and exciting direction.
Calderis he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said: "By the time we see him again in [Oathbringer], the Herald Nale will have accepted that his work of many centuries (watching and making sure the Radiants don't return) is no longer relevant. This is a major shift in who he is and in his goals as an individual..." IMO, that doesn't preclude him being crazy in an entire new and exciting direction. I fully agree. His focus has shifted. He's not cured.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 On 9/25/2017 at 3:32 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: At the end of Edgedancer, Darkness/Nale finally realized that the Desolation had arrived. Upon realizing this he flew off, and we don't hear from him again. So what is he doing? What will he do with the knowledge that the Desolation has returned? This is especially important considering he has been training a small troupe of Skybreakers to kill off Radiants. Will these Skybreakers end up joining Dalinar and the gang in Oathbringer? It certainly doesn't make sense that Nale would tell them to keep hunting proto-Radiants, but would they listen if he suddenly told them to stop? Thoughts? Punishment still needs to be meted out for the Shin Shamanate. Ishar has some explaining to do. The Desolation is at hand, meaning that Taln should be back. Urithiru has been rediscovered. It depends on his level of priorities. He's gotta be dealing with at least one of those things in the near future, so take your pick on which one happens first. On 10/9/2017 at 10:32 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said: The main reason why I was unsure if the Skybreakers would listen to Nale is because he has spent a great deal of time telling them that they must kill surge binders, and has likely been telling them that it is both justified and necessary. To turn around and suddenly say "Oops. My bad, forget everything I've said for the past number of years", I wouldn't find it hard to believe that some of them wouldn't go along. They might think he has been tricked or corrupted. He can just as easily change the plan without admitting that he was wrong. The punishments for the crimes our proto-KR were guilty of weren't actually death. Nalan made that decision himself, so changing their sentence to "mandatory combat time" isn't out of the question(not too different from being assigned to a bridge crew as a punishment). Forcing the to KR fight in the Desolation they "caused" is a valid punishment in the "reap what you sow" sense as well. He can also mention that since the Desolation is at hand, the rules have changed(Wartime Ordinances/Martial Law take precedence over civilian laws, and with Urithiru back in the picture...) He was killing them to prevent a Desolation, so that mission is pointless now that it's here. Heck, he's the Herald of Laws and Justice. He's probably the closest thing in the Cosmere to "my word is law" since the days of TLR. Back in the day, he probably had the authority to offer an official pardon to anyone that fights in the Desolations. After all, he seems to have pardoned Szeth, who's guilty of at least a dozen counts of regicide, just as many counts of mass murder, countless cases of first degree and voluntary second degree murder, willingly inciting war and civil unrest, multiple counts of vandalism, destruction of property, breaking and entering, and who knows what else. Nalan's willingness to not seek punishment for that may as well be an unofficial pardon. He certainly thinks its within his power to not punish Szeth for his crimes, or at least delay them indefinitely, and that says a great deal about the authority he feels he has. On 10/9/2017 at 1:14 PM, WhiteLeeopard said: I suspect even Dalinar will be a bit overawed by the Heralds at first. I highly doubt it. To quote myself: On 10/2/2017 at 0:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: Dalinar was hit with a very heavy 1-2-3 combo in quick succession. He learned that his god is real. He then learned that his god is dead. He's told that he has to fight the deity that killed god, and he keeps on his path. In my opinion, it'd take a lot to rattle his personal convictions more than that. This is the man who learned that the devil killed god, and doesn't back down when being told to kill the devil. The Heralds might be deific figures, but at the end of the day they are still just men and women. He'll appreciate their help,he might let Ishar(his Patron Herald) give him some advice, but I doubt he's gonna stop and gawk at them.
Calderis he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 23 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Nalan's willingness to not seek punishment for that may as well be an unofficial pardon. He certainly thinks its within his power to not punish Szeth for his crimes, or at least delay them indefinitely, and that says a great deal about the authority he feels he has. It could be argued that he was killed, and so after resurrection by Nale has a clean slate. Really depends on Nale though.
thejopen27 he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calderis said: It could be argued that he was killed, and so after resurrection by Nale has a clean slate. Really depends on Nale though. The biggest sign that Nale was mad is that he was bending the law to suit his goals. Someone as rigid as Nale, probably, would strictly follow the law no matter what. 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Punishment still needs to be meted out for the Shin Shamanate. Forcing the to KR fight in the Desolation they "caused" is a valid punishment in the "reap what you sow" sense as well. He can also mention that since the Desolation is at hand, the rules have changed(Wartime Ordinances/Martial Law take precedence over civilian laws, and with Urithiru back in the picture...) He was killing them to prevent a Desolation, so that mission is pointless now that it's here. Heck, he's the Herald of Laws and Justice. He's probably the closest thing in the Cosmere to "my word is law" since the days of TLR. Back in the day, he probably had the authority to offer an official pardon to anyone that fights in the Desolations. After all, he seems to have pardoned Szeth, who's guilty of at least a dozen counts of regicide, just as many counts of mass murder, countless cases of first degree and voluntary second degree murder, willingly inciting war and civil unrest, multiple counts of vandalism, destruction of property, breaking and entering, and who knows what else. A. What has the Shamanate truly done wrong, other than not believe the desolation was real. I would argue their Truthless law is a bad law, but it is their law. B. I don't think the KR returning actually caused the desolation. All the spren decided to start returning in the same period for some reason. The Spren knew something was coming and chose to risk restarting the Radiants for some reason. The desolation can and will sit where it wants, it needs no usher. C. I don't think Nalan, the Herald of Law and Justice, makes up his own laws or considers himself above the law, or superseding the law. In Nale's eyes Szeth wasn't committing those crimes, he was following the dictates of the law he follows and allowing himself to be punished by his country's legal code. The people who ordered Szeth to do those things are the guilty ones to Nale. I'm interested to see if Nale goes after Taravangian at some point. Edited November 6, 2017 by thejopen27
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: This is the man who learned that the devil killed god, and doesn't back down when being told to kill the devil. The Heralds might be deific figures, but at the end of the day they are still just men and women. He'll appreciate their help,he might let Ishar(his Patron Herald) give him some advice, but I doubt he's gonna stop and gawk at them. I guess we'll see, but although I don't expect obvious fawning, I wouldn't be surprised to see a very deep respect for the Heralds at first. Until he realizes they are all bonkers and left the Oathpact.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 6, 2017 Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Calderis said: It could be argued that he was killed, and so after resurrection by Nale has a clean slate. Really depends on Nale though. I suppose you could do that, but is anyone else gonna see it that way? People have a funny thing with thinking the law isn't harsh enough when it affects someone who did them/their families wrong. I think a KR status would better absolve him in the eyes of the many, since as Navani said, "they must be good, right?" 9 hours ago, thejopen27 said: A. What has the Shamanate truly done wrong, other than not believe the desolation was real. I would argue their Truthless law is a bad law, but it is their law. I'm paraphrasing an assumption between Nalan and Szeth here. Quote "You are reborn. Come along. It is time to visit your people. Your training begins immediately." Nin began to walk away, revealing that the thing he held behind his back was a sheathed sword. [..] Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. "You are right. My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia. If I am to bring judgement to them, I will face enemies with Shards and with power." "That is not a problem," Nin said, looking back. "I have brought a replacement Shardblade for you. One that is a perfect match to your task and temperament." [...]Hello, a cheerful voice said in his. Would you like to destroy some evil today? Directly after stating that Szeth would be a perfect candidate for the Skybreakers, he says it's time to go to Shinovar for Szeth's training. Szeth assumes he is to bring judgement down on the Shamanate, and Nalan does not correct him. Instead, he says that Nightblood is a perfect match for his task. Nightblood destroys evil. Szeth was given an assignment that involves destroying evil in Shinovar as part of his training as a Skybreaker. What other assumptions can really be drawn from that? 9 hours ago, thejopen27 said: B. I don't think the KR returning actually caused the desolation. I'm aware of that("caused" was in quotes after all). However, Nalan has been killing them under the premise that they could cause it, so it is likely that he has put that belief into some of his subordinates, if only to justify the killing. This way, he can save face without admitting he was wrong by changing the mission now that the Desolation is here. 9 hours ago, thejopen27 said: C. I don't think Nalan, the Herald of Law and Justice, makes up his own laws or considers himself above the law, or superseding the law. I don't think he does either, but mankind probably held his word/counsel in high regard back in the day. It'd be an air of authority the people gave him, rather than him seeing himself as being above them. He doesn't have to see himself as above the law to be above it. If the people think he can do no wrong, then he can do no wrong, even when he does. I doubt he did any wrong back in the day, but who's gonna argue with one of the Almighty's Chosen if he did? If he felt that someone should be pardoned, odds are they got pardoned. If he felt a punishment was too severe/not severe enough, it probably got changed. That's not him flaunting his authority, that's people getting a second opinion and then putting all their faith in it. 9 hours ago, thejopen27 said: I'm interested to see if Nale goes after Taravangian at some point. Nalan knows a lot of things, but he also doesn't know a lot of things. I'd say it depends on how much he knows about the Diagrammists and their activities. His eyes were focused on Szeth, so he might not have paid too much attention to the various hands that wielded him at any given moment. 3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I guess we'll see, but although I don't expect obvious fawning, I wouldn't be surprised to see a very deep respect for the Heralds at first. Until he realizes they are all bonkers and left the Oathpact. Fair enough. "Overawed" painted a different mental picture than "deep respect," so that's probably where the miscommunication happened. Edited November 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects
thejopen27 he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Nalan knows a lot of things, but he also doesn't know a lot of things. I'd say it depends on how much he knows about the Diagrammists and their activities. His eyes were focused on Szeth, so he might not have paid too much attention to the various hands that wielded him at any given moment. he knows what knows, and he knows a lot.
Xaladin he/him Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 On 11/1/2017 at 8:03 PM, joesleepsalot said: He doesn't need to be a big player, but we definitely get the vibe that he will be involved in the big picture. Take hoid for instance... his scenes clearly convey big picture/cosmere without making the reader feel like they're clueless about something. I think Sanderson has the skill to replicate that in keslsier.... especially since he's already done it in hoid. Id be willing to bet that Kelsier and Kaladin will meet. They're essentially a "type" of each other: -both names start with K -both are very quick learners and superbly skilled with their investiture -both are extremely good fighters -both were abused and mistreated to the point of madness -both gave up on life -both came back stronger than ever -both are concerned about the greater good -both have honor (character trait not shard) -both hold the welfare of their crews/troops above their own -both are flawed role models (just human) -neither was romantically involved during the events of the story (minus Kelsier's past) -kelsier treats Vin the way Kaladin treats new recruits -kelsier is now "mobile"and knows how to see other places -kelsier knows about the shards -kelsier talks to harmony, who's fully aware of Odium. Logical to assume kelsier knows what's going on. Plus kelsier and hoid have met, and kelsier's inquisitive nature won't rest until he's at the center of events. My two cents: Sanderson doesn't waste words or time. We are waaaaaay too invested in Kelsier and his arc for him to just go away. Same with Kaladin. I think the third mistborn trilogy will see some crossover. You're missing the biggest similarity: They both loath the "upper class" -- Nobles and Lighteyes.
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted November 7, 2017 Posted November 7, 2017 6 hours ago, Xaladin said: You're missing the biggest similarity: They both loath the "upper class" -- Nobles and Lighteyes. There is however a big difference. Kaladin is and will be a hero in any world and circumstance. Kelsier will be (or would have been) a villain in nearly every other world and circumstance but the one he was in.
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