[OB] Anyone think Mr. T might be right?

[Salkara]

I'm referring to this epigraph in particular:

Quote

"Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great."

More and more, I think there may be something to this. Dalinar the Politician is horribly ineffective, and I don't think he has the time to build up enough political acumen to actually be good at it. Contrast this with Dalinar the Warlord, who is able to draw the loyalty of a man who had just been trying to kill him (thinking of Teleb here). Dalinar the Politician tried to maneuver Elhokar into making him Highprince of War, enforce the Codes, and make the highprinces work together. Dalinar the Politician failed miserably. Dalinar the Warlord kicked the king in the chest and made all the above happen. Dalinar the Warlord seems to succeed where Dalinar the Politician flounders.

I think there's a potential for Dalinar's journey in this book to be partly about discovering that he can be both the Warlord and a good man. If so, I think this line from Tanalan may prove to be an interesting bit of foreshadowing:

Quote

“You don’t have to pull sorrow behind you like a sledge on the stones, scraping and crushing those you pass."

 

[Calderis]

I agree with Wit. Dalinar is a Dictator. 

That doesn't make him a bad man inherently, and it's unfortunate that his tendency is to go that way as a leader. 

That is also what is needed at the moment. Whether it's by fear of the enemy, or him forcing it, the world is going to come together to defend itself. The only question is how much will be left to fight. 

Dalinar doesn't want to force anyone, but even inadvertently it's what he naturally does.

[nervousnerd]

I think that Taravangian's plan is getting so many people killed unnecessarily. If he can keep following the Diagram to completion, it seems like it is the easiest (not easy but easiest) way to bring the world together but he doesn't care about how many people survive just that there is a seed left to regrow humanity. It also doesn't seem like his plan involves actually fighting back yet.

I think Dalinar would be better at leading the actual war and not the bringing people together before it. He does seem like he needs someone else to bring everyone else together but I'm not sure that Taravangian would be the one to do that. If he even wanted to work together, I am not sure that he could follow the Diagram still and I don't think he would have the same ability to get people to follow him without it.

[grinachu]

I think Taravangian realizes that uniting Roshar, and following Honor's vision for Roshar, will only unleash Odium's ability to interfere in Roshar. This is the meaning of the epigraph: 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.” –Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

The reality is that Odium has defeated Honor thrice over now, once by persuading the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact, once by destroying the Knight's Radiant, and finally by killing Honor himself.  

I have a question.  What evidence do we have that Taravangian has a Radiant at his command?

Edited September 27, 2017 by grinachu

[Sirscott13]

Perhaps it’s important to note that Dalinar is a bond smith and that requires keeping his oaths. All of his oaths even the ones he made back when he was a pompous blackthorn. I think his next couple of radiant advancement oaths are gonna be difficult for him.

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, grinachu said:

I have a question.  What evidence do we have that Taravangian has a Radiant at his command?

For now, none. 

The moment that Radiant activates Jah Keved's Oathgate though, irrevocable proof. 

What reason is there to think Taravangian can't have a Radiant? 

[grinachu]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

For now, none. 

The moment that Radiant activates Jah Keved's Oathgate though, irrevocable proof. 

What reason is there to think Taravangian can't have a Radiant? 

None, at all.  I just saw the claim in other places that Taravangian had a Dustbringer and was curious about the source.  I assume it is just chapter 13 of Oathbringer right?

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, grinachu said:

None, at all.  I just saw the claim in other places that Taravangian had a Dustbringer and was curious about the source.  I assume it is just chapter 13 of Oathbringer right?

Yeah. Pure speculation. I don't know what order, but I fully believe this Radiant is a follower of the Diagram and didn't just "come forward" 

As to who she is or what order... We only know she exists. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

The idea of Dustbringer radiant with T has probably been a merge of different theories. One of the current candidates for radiancy is Redin, bastard son of ex-king of Jah Keved. He is brave, obedient, has a Rhyshadium and has appeared on screen a few times. However, while I believe Redin will become a radiant I highly doubt he will work for or under T. At least not once he has another viable option, or not if he is aware of all the truth (Shallan and Jasnah were fooled by T after all). I think T has a radiant, but I'm not so certain they are from the Diagram. Using an innocent radiant to gain full Dalinar's trust seems something T might do. 

On topic, I agree Dalinar politician bores me to death. I still suspect that Dalinar is doing something wrong. Can't put my finger on what, but something feels off. Not sure if his role as bondsmith, or leader, or what.

Edited September 27, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

He is brave, obedient, has a Rhyshadium and has appeared on screen a few times.

Where did we learn he has a Ryshadium? This is new to me 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, grinachu said:

The reality is that Odium has defeated Honor thrice over now, once by persuading the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact, once by destroying the Knight's Radiant, and finally by killing Honor himself. 

I'll caution stating assumptions as fact. Odium killed Honor. That is the only one of those three things that we actually know he has done.

[Salkara]

On 09/27/2017 at 1:50 PM, Sirscott13 said:

Perhaps it’s important to note that Dalinar is a bond smith and that requires keeping his oaths. All of his oaths even the ones he made back when he was a pompous blackthorn. I think his next couple of radiant advancement oaths are gonna be difficult for him.

Where did we learn this? He's called the Stormfather a "spren of oaths," and he's a Bondsmith: however, I don't recall a portion where it was mentioned that he now has to keep every single oath he's ever made.

On 09/27/2017 at 2:49 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

On topic, I agree Dalinar politician bores me to death. I still suspect that Dalinar is doing something wrong. Can't put my finger on what, but something feels off. Not sure if his role as bondsmith, or leader, or what.

He is so much more interesting when he makes his point with a kick to the breastplate, right?

Edited September 29, 2017 by Salkara
Mobile autocorrect

[grinachu]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'll caution stating assumptions as fact. Odium killed Honor. That is the only one of those three things that we actually know he has done.

Yes, I was being deliberately provocative.  I will say this. My reading of the vision at Feverstone Keep is that the Knights who abandoned their oaths were actually acting honorably. Something compelled them to abandon their nahel bond and so abandon their blade and plate.  

As for the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, is there any doubt that they undermined the shard's intent by doing so? Honor invested its power in creating the Oathpact. Breaking promises hurts Honor.  

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, grinachu said:

As for the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, is there any doubt that they undermined the shard's intent by doing so? Honor invested its power in creating the Oathpact. Breaking promises hurts Honor.

Well, considering that the Oathpact was not actually broken... Either way, your prior statement and this one do not equate.
Is everyone who breaks a promise automatically being influenced by Odium? No.     The Heralds leaving the pact of their own volition is entirely possible, and would not be Odium "persuading the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact" as you said earlier.

There is no doubt that breaking that oath goes against the intent of Honor, but there is quite a fair bit of doubt whether Odium actually had anything directly to do with it.

7 minutes ago, grinachu said:

My reading of the vision at Feverstone Keep is that the Knights who abandoned their oaths were actually acting honorably. Something compelled them to abandon their nahel bond and so abandon their blade and plate.

I will partially disagree, largely because of Kaladin's experience with breaking that bond. He swore two oaths, but did not truly believe that one of them was right. His bond was on the precipice, but still functioning while debating his choices. The bond only broke when he started to move forward with what he thought to be the morally questionable oath.

In order for the KR to break their bonds, they would have to break their Oaths. Breaking their oaths is the antithesis of acting honorably. Merely abandoning their oaths would have them end up like Shallan was, with the bond slowly fading out.

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

however, I don't recall a portion where it was mentioned that he now has to keep every single oath he's ever made.

It's an extrapolation of the line "there are no foolish oaths." Honor relates to keeping your promises, following your code. Breaking any oath is dishonorable, even if the oath was sworn in jest, or sworn centuries ago. The Stormfather does not take kindly to breaking deals, and that mindset was only made worse after the Recreance.

[grinachu]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

In order for the KR to break their bonds, they would have to break their Oaths. Breaking their oaths is the antithesis of acting honorably. Merely abandoning their oaths would have them end up like Shallan was, with the bond slowly fading out.

It's an extrapolation of the line "there are no foolish oaths." Honor relates to keeping your promises, following your code. Breaking any oath is dishonorable, even if the oath was sworn in jest, or sworn centuries ago. The Stormfather does not take kindly to breaking deals, and that mindset was only made worse after the Recreance.

I agree with your analysis above - but I think the inference is that this is Honor's weakness as a shard - it becomes inflexible and obsessed with following a prior promise. The Stormfather encapsulates the same weakness.  Honor does not understand the burden that this places on individuals, whether Heralds, Knight's Radiant or others. Rigidity and resistance to change. Which is precisely why Honor's vision for redeeming humanity is the same vision that proved faulty before.  By uniting humanity, by resisting the Thrill and Odium's influence, Honor is allowing Odium to concentrate all his power.  

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, grinachu said:

Honor does not understand the burden that this places on individuals, whether Heralds, Knight's Radiant or others.

Ain't that the truth? The best example is Szeth, the most honorable character in the Stormlight Archives. He's in a rather broken state, all thanks to his personal honor.

6 minutes ago, grinachu said:

Which is precisely why Honor's vision for redeeming humanity is the same vision that proved faulty before. By uniting humanity, by resisting the Thrill and Odium's influence, Honor is allowing Odium to concentrate all his power.

Honor had some valid reasons for that, come to think of it. Hatred, unlike rage, is a skill that goes hand-in-hand with patience and plotting. By forcing a confrontation, Odium can't use as much subtlety and plotting as he's been able to do this time around. Resisting Odium's influence was self-explanatory, since it gives Odium less of a foothold. A concentrated force is easier to fully destroy than several little ones, because everybody is all in one place(this weakness goes both ways though)

I'm sure there is probably an "improved" method that would work more, but we as readers would need more details in order to come up with one.

[Ammanas]

Do I think Mr. T is right? I pity the fool that thinks otherwise.

[Daishi5]

On 9/25/2017 at 0:59 PM, Salkara said:

I'm referring to this epigraph in particular:

More and more, I think there may be something to this. Dalinar the Politician is horribly ineffective, and I don't think he has the time to build up enough political acumen to actually be good at it. Contrast this with Dalinar the Warlord, who is able to draw the loyalty of a man who had just been trying to kill him (thinking of Teleb here). Dalinar the Politician tried to maneuver Elhokar into making him Highprince of War, enforce the Codes, and make the highprinces work together. Dalinar the Politician failed miserably. Dalinar the Warlord kicked the king in the chest and made all the above happen. Dalinar the Warlord seems to succeed where Dalinar the Politician flounders.

I think there's a potential for Dalinar's journey in this book to be partly about discovering that he can be both the Warlord and a good man. If so, I think this line from Tanalan may prove to be an interesting bit of foreshadowing:

 

1

My theory is that Desolations are not a fight against Odium's army, but everyone is fighting everyone, and Odium uses that chaos to drive the groups to commit greater and greater atrocities against one another, creating more hatred for each other.  If I am right, Mr. T. is serving Odiums aims by destabilizing the world.  

For your question about is he right about Dalinar:

He is wrong about the present Bondsmith Dalinar, this Dalinar has been very dedicated to bringing the people together without making them hate each other.  

He is correct about the Blackthorn Dalinar if he re-emerges.  The old blackthorn might bring people together, but they would resent and hate him and each other for his methods.

I don't expect that Dalinar's arc is going to have him backslide into the Blackthorn, so I think Mr. T. is wrong.

[WhiteLeeopard]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Where did we learn he has a Ryshadium? This is new to me 

Hmm, my bad, I thought it was briefly mentioned at some point on one of his two appearances, but apparently not. 

[Michael Portz]

On 25.9.2017 at 7:59 PM, Salkara said:

I'm referring to this epigraph in particular:

More and more, I think there may be something to this. Dalinar the Politician is horribly ineffective, and I don't think he has the time to build up enough political acumen to actually be good at it. Contrast this with Dalinar the Warlord, who is able to draw the loyalty of a man who had just been trying to kill him (thinking of Teleb here). Dalinar the Politician tried to maneuver Elhokar into making him Highprince of War, enforce the Codes, and make the highprinces work together. Dalinar the Politician failed miserably. Dalinar the Warlord kicked the king in the chest and made all the above happen. Dalinar the Warlord seems to succeed where Dalinar the Politician flounders.

I think there's a potential for Dalinar's journey in this book to be partly about discovering that he can be both the Warlord and a good man. If so, I think this line from Tanalan may prove to be an interesting bit of foreshadowing:

 

The Diagram quote states the opposites as "Dalinar is warlord" and "Dalinar seeks peace". You state, that the latter is equivalent to "Dalinar is politician". I think you are wrong here.

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ain't that the truth? The best example is Szeth, the most honorable character in the Stormlight Archives. He's in a rather broken state, all thanks to his personal honor.

Have an upvote!

In the end it might turn out, that honor left unchecked leads to as much evil as hatred.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Honor by itself is definetely far from perfect. You could easily make a case that what happened to the Heralds was Honor's fault. What he did was basically send 10 elite soldiers to eternal war, hell and horror with zero recompense. Thats not only inhumane but impossible to keep up. Then, there are definetely foolish oaths. What if you swear to never let an enemy know peace in a moment of rage? Or to rape and plunder an entire kingdom in a moment of grief? Or without looking too far the Vengeance Pact?

That been said, what we have seen from Cultivation by herself also worries me. Its far too deadly, focused and one dimensional. The best KR orders so far I think are those that show signs of both honor and cultivation. Those too much on one side seem dangerously unbalanced.

It may be T is an agent of Cultivation as many think, but I do seem him as evil. One does not prevent the other. Some say that evil is not so easy to define. Well. T murders, he lies, he hides, he breaks and destroys, he brings grief and destruction on a scale that makes Gavilar and his conquest seem an icepick next to an iceberg, he takes the easy path, he doesn't look for another better way. Together those are enough for me to mark him one one side of the coin. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[grinachu]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

It may be T is an agent of Cultivation as many think, but I do seem him as evil. One does not prevent the other. Some say that evil is not so easy to define. Well. T murders, he lies, he hides, he breaks and destroys, he brings grief and destruction on a scale that makes Gavilar and his conquest seem an icepick next to an iceberg, he takes the easy path, he doesn't look for another better way. Together those are enough for me to mark him one one side of the coin. 

I agree.  The intent is irrelevant here.  the ideals of the Knights Radiant are precisely to stop this kind of reductivist morality. Journey before Destination. Life before Death.  T knows this, but rejects it anyway.  

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, grinachu said:

I agree.  The intent is irrelevant here.  the ideals of the Knights Radiant are precisely to stop this kind of reductivist morality. Journey before Destination. Life before Death.  T knows this, but rejects it anyway.  

Your giving The Envisigers interpretation of the First Oath far to much credit. 

We have WoBs saying that this assertion is untrue. Their the foundation of my assertion that Taravangian will be a rival Bondsmith and remain a villain. 

Edit: rather than try and dig them up again, just read the WoBs in the first post of my thread here. 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Calderis

[Michael Portz]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

It may be T is an agent of Cultivation as many think, but I do seem him as evil.

But you are judging him as if he was acting on our earth, in our universe.

How are Evil/Good even defined in the cosmere? Or even in Roshar? Are there shards or intents which are considered "good", and others which are considered "evil"? Is there a "good relative to my intent" or "evil relative to my intent" for each Shard and its sphere of influence? Or should we introduce the "god beyond" right here, just to define good and evil?

Ok, yeah, I am deviating ... :-D

 

 

[grinachu]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Your giving The Envisigers interpretation of the First Oath far to much credit. 

We have WoBs saying that this assertion is untrue. Their the foundation of my assertion that Taravangian will be a rival Bondsmith and remain a villain. 

Edit: rather than try and dig them up again, just read the WoBs in the first post of my thread here. 

 

I'm not seeing your first post with the WOB.  Can you please share a link? Thank you.