The SLA Arcs and Story Ending

[Confused]

Raw speculation: The first five books are about gathering Roshar’s humans in Urithiru (“uniting” them). The gap between the arcs is the “Night of Sorrows,” when the Everstorm rises to submerge Urithiru in darkness. The last five books are about humans fighting back, causing Odium to question whether he can win. The culmination is the Duel between Honor’s and Odium’s Champions.

My basis for this speculation? It just feels right….

There is one item of evidence – the image of the ten Shardblades held aloft against the Voidbringer hordes. I suggest these are the Honorblades, not KR Shardblades. Honorblades, we know, consume Stormlight. I think they consume any Investiture, especially if Nale’s “Sword of Retribution” turns out to be Nightblood. I speculate these Blades will be used to remove voidspren from the Voidbringers, returning them to their normal state. With his army gone, Odium chooses to Duel.

I have more confidence projecing the saga’s ending. Brandon says he foreshadows that ending somewhere in the first two books. @zandi opined the story of Fleet (WoR, Chapter 59) tells that ending. I agree. I reconstruct that story to fill in what I think happens during the race. It goes without saying this is complete speculation and guesswork.

Preliminary Thought: If @Zandi is correct, the race is the Duel of Champions. How then to explain the person Dalinar thinks is Odium’s Champion? I suggest (again with no evidence) that the ten former Silver Kingdoms each fall to a different Voidbringer army led by an opposing Champion. Each Kingdom has an Oathgate That’s why I think the first five books chronicle the human retreat to Urithiru.

Dalinar sees someone recognizable who embodies the Thrill. I think he sees Nergaoul in possession of the “unmade” soul of the recently murdered Sadeas. The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi. KR in Dalinar’s "Starfall" vision (IIRC) say their warrior class congregates in “Alethela.”

I speculate each Odium Champion is a listener “god” in a mortal's form who has ties to that Kingdom. When Odium fears he may lose, he calls upon his true Champion, the “God of Storms,” IMO a corrupted version of the Stormfather.

Let’s begin the final Duel of Champions:

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“So to the east, there went our Fleet. Upon the shore his mark was set…. [¶] No man should tempt the God of Storms.”

The storm begins in the east, so it’s not the Everstorm. But the chapter never identifies the storm as a highstorm. The reference to the “God of Storms” could mean the Stormfather or the listener’s Rider of Storms. Again, I speculate Odium has injected his Investiture into the Stormfather, giving Odium control over the storms.

If Odium controls the Stormfather, does that mean Dalinar is the “one who betrays us” from the WoK back cover? Nale mentions the danger of making the Nahel bond oaths without Honor. Maybe this is what he means? Through the corrupt Stormfather, who makes a corrupt Nahel bond, the Bondsmith himself is unknowingly corrupt?

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“Lanky, tall, with tied-black long hair that went to his waist…”

Fleet’s description matches Kaladin.

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Fleet tore off just in front of an angry, violent wall of water, lightning, and wind-blown rocks.
…

“O’er rock and grass, our Fleet did run! He leaped the stones and dodges the trees, his feet a blur, his soul a sun.”

Fleet runs, he doesn’t Windrun. That suggests the storm doesn’t hold Stormlight. I think this confirms the storm is not a highstorm.

Fleet’s soul is a “sun.” On Roshar, spren are “souls,” and Syl is Kaladin’s “soul.” I think Kaladin must hold Stormlight to glow. By then he’s a full Windrunner and can store and use Stormlight with peak efficiency. He must saturate himself with Stormlight.

I have only guesses why he doesn’t fly. Maybe running conserves Stormlight better. Maybe Odium set the Duel rules. Or worse, maybe an unknowingly corrupt Dalinar set the rules, thinking he was acting Honorably. Could that be Dalinar's betrayal?

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“Yet soon the race its toll did claim. His feet like bricks, his legs like cloth. In gasps our runner drew his breath. The end approached, the storm outdone, but slowly did our hero run.”

Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, but still makes it into Shinovar:

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“He crossed the peaks, but lost his lead. The last paths lay before his feet, but strength he’d spent and might he’d lost. Each step was toil, each breath in pain. A sunken land he crossed with grief, the grass so dead it did not move.

“But here the storm, it too did wilt, with thunder lost and lightning spent. The drops slipped down, now weak as wet. For Shin is not a place for them.”

I think the storm “wilts” because it loses its Investiture – Odium’s Investiture – when the storm hits the mountains east of Shinovar. Highstorms likewise lose Stormlight there. IMO, that’s why there are no spren in Shinovar.

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“Upon that land of dirt and soil,” Wit shouted, “our hero fell and did not stir! His body spent, his strength undone, Fleet the hero was no more.

“The storm approached and found him there. It stilled and stopped upon its course! The rains they fell, the winds they blew, but forward they could not progress.”

As with the Voidbringers, pulling Odium’s Investiture from the storm leaves it in its natural state. The Stormfather, the personification of Honor, recognizes Kaladin’s sacrifice to protect Roshar. Is there anything more “Honorable”?

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“For glory lit, and life alive, for goals unreached and aims to strive. All men must try, the wind did see. It is the test, it is the dream.

“So in that land of dirt and soil, our hero stopped the storm itself. And while the rain came down like tears, our Fleet refused to end this race. His body dead, but not his will, within those winds his soul did rise.

“It flew upon the day’s last song, to win the race and claim the dawn. Past the sea and past the waves, our Fleet no longer lost his breath. Forever strong, forever fast, forever free to race the wind.”

Kaladin fully merges with Syl. His body is dead, but their fully-mingled soul remains, “forever free to race the wind.”

And that’s how humans defeat Odium. What their prize is – Odium leaving Greater Roshar with reduced power? – is unclear. A final thought: I think Cultivation is more prescient than Odium. I think she knew the terms of the Duel he would someday want to fight. She prepared for that day by making Shinovar a sinkhole for Investiture. She won and reaped her revenge on him for killing Honor.

Highly speculative, but what do you think?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If the Fleet story is foreshadowing for the end of Stormlight, I doubt it is in as detailed a way as you propose. I think Fleet is more about not giving up, keep on fighting no matter what. In that, it may be a metaphor for Roshar vs Odium, but I doubt it foreshadows Kaladin vs Dalinar.

I do agree about that Dalinar might betray humanity though.  That is a possibility, but not certain. The only two I'm 100% on not betraying humanity is Szeth and Eshonai, because both has already been antagonists.

[Watchcry he/him]

I thought at the end of book 5 Odium himself dies and either Kaladin or Dalinar take up the shard. The other five books are reactive to this event. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Watchcry
Misspelled word

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Raw speculation: The first five books are about gathering Roshar’s humans in Urithiru (“uniting” them). The gap between the arcs is the “Night of Sorrows,” when the Everstorm rises to submerge Urithiru in darkness. The last five books are about humans fighting back, causing Odium to question whether he can win. The culmination is the Duel between Honor’s and Odium’s Champions.

My basis for this speculation? It just feels right….

I'll say this--I think your instinct is correct when you imagine that the good guys will eventually be cornered in Urithiru, Odium having claimed the rest of Roshar... but that strikes me as a good place to end book 9, not book 5. It would be hard to keep the remaining books from feeling like anti-climax if you go there too early.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:54 AM, Confused said:

There is one item of evidence – the image of the ten Shardblades held aloft against the Voidbringer hordes. I suggest these are the Honorblades, not KR Shardblades.

Honorblades, we know, consume Stormlight. I think they consume any Investiture, especially if Nale’s “Sword of Retribution” turns out to be Nightblood.

I speculate these Blades will be used to remove voidspren from the Voidbringers, returning them to their normal state.

I agree that the 10 figures was meant to evoke imagery of the Heralds, or at least the Honorblades. (It's where that old theory about Kaladin, Shallan and the others replacing the Heralds came from I think)

I could see the Honorblades simply requiring Investiture, regardless of it's flavor. I could also see them being limited to only Stormlight, so it's not a huge thing. What I don't see is what Nightblood has to do with it. Nightblood was created several millennia later. If the Honorblades can consume any Investiture, then they could do that regardless of whether or not that Sword is Nightblood. I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make here.

As for the last line, I don't see that happening. Shards may be pieces of a God, but their hold is far from absolute. The Stormfather couldn't prevent Eshonai from bonding a Stormspren after she chose to initiate it. As little as being indoors or strong mental disagreement between Parshmen and the Everstorm could prevent them from bonding a Stormspren.

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Question

A dullform Listener is indoors when the Everstorm passes over, will they be transformed into a Voidform?

Brandon Sanderson

No. It depends on the strength of the boundary between them, but it is possible for them to...Being transformed, taking new forms, there is a measure of will behind it, meaning for instance, even when Eshonai took the new form, she had herself open to taking a new form. If a parshmen were even in the Everstorm, and aggressively didn't want this to happen, I'm not saying they won't, but there is room for discussion whether or not they would change there. But also one who DOES want to, and there's only a pane of glass and things like that, then yeah.

I don't think mere magic swords can sever that bond. Not without the Listener's consent.

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On 9/23/2017 at 11:54 AM, Confused said:

I think he sees Nergaoul in possession of the “unmade” soul of the recently murdered Sadeas.

The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi.

This again... I'm not getting involved in this rabbit hole again. Well... why Nergaoul specifically?

As for locality, you do remember that Nergaoul and Moelach can choose to move.. or not. The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi because Nergaoul decided that is where he would be. Where he goes, the Thrill goes.

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Dalinar sees someone recognizable who embodies the Thrill.

For someone as pedant as you are about details, misinterpretations, and what is/is not certain, I'm surprised you'd say those words.

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and its eyes glowed a brilliant red.

Dalinar stared deep into those eyes, and felt a chill wash through him. Though the destruction raged around him, vaporizing rocks, those eyes frightened him more. He saw something terribly familiar in them.

This was a danger far beyond even the storms.

Seeing "something familiar in a figure's eyes" is not even remotely the same things as seeing "someone familiar." He also makes absolutely no comment about any familiarity or lack thereof with anything else other than the eyes. Window to the soul they may be, eyes alone are not enough for to recognize someone familiar.

On 9/23/2017 at 11:54 AM, Confused said:

Nalan mentions the danger of making the Nahel bond oaths without Honor. Maybe this is what he means? Through the corrupt Stormfather, who makes a corrupt Nahel bond, the Bondsmith himself is unknowingly corrupt?

If this is what Nalan means, then he has to have a way of gaining this knowledge, which seems.. unlikely. I don't see Honor making anyone privy to information like that, and Odium isn't the type to share trade secrets. It also means that he should try to kill off Dalinar, his character development in Edgedancer notwithstanding. (Wouldn't that be an interesting scene in Oathbringer..)

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As for the rest of the post, there's not much to say. (boy was I wrong about that. It's nice to know I can still discuss things on here with some modicum of passion)

I agree with Toaster Retribution. You seem to be taking the story a bit too literally for my tastes, even if it is the foreshadowing of the ending(which I do not think it is)
 

I also think Dalinar would be the one who joins the enemy side, but I don't see him unknowingly doing it. His decisions should be his own, free of any mental pressure. He can do dark things because of well-reasoned arguments, but actual corruption? It undermines your ability to care about why a character does what he does.

Betrayals are supposed to hurt the character's allies, but also hurt the readers. Having Dalinar betray his fellows purely because he's been corrupted by dark magic/whatever-you-want-to-call-it just doesn't evoke that feeling of betrayal. It's like when Odium was controlling the Stormform Parshendi. We don't consider them to be evil so much as we considered them to be battle droids. They couldn't resist his control, and had to do what they were told. If Dalinar is put in a position where he cannot resist that control, then he is essentially made a slave of Odium, rather than a traitor to the KR, and his betrayal means little to me. If he can resist that influence, he would. Blackthorn Dalinar wasn't the type to back down from a challenge, and now that the fate of the world is at stake? He's going to resist his foe at every turn unless not resisting is the better choice. I'd like him to be turned because he actually believed it was the right choice, rather than because his view of events has been vastly skewed due to being corrupted.

What would his actions look like to outsiders? I'd much prefer his decisions to make sense to me, even if I disagree with his actions and consider some of them as "evil." If he's been corrupted and his view of events make his actions appear illogical to someone who doesn't know he was corrupted, someone in-world needs to call him out on it.

I'll admit that this tangent is mostly because I've become jaded towards Possession/Mind Control/Mental Corruption tropes in literature. They are fine for normal mooks, and people have done well-written puppet characters before. Nowadays, most all of them just feel like an easy way out in place of actual character motivations. Possession and Mind Control are a staple of "wanted to make a character evil, but didn't want to ruin reader opinion of them" story arcs. It's why "the dark side corrupts" trope from Star Wars has been so abused in other types of fantasy/sci-fi stories, allowing characters to be redeemed without much culpability for their actions. Mental Corruption just smacks of an impending "character conveniently/magically got cured and were subsequently redeemed" conclusion to an arc, and I've never really enjoyed those.

Sorry for rambling on longer than I anticipated.

[Confused]

My goodness, @The One Who Connects! I begin by saying this is all “raw speculation” based on “it feels right.” That’s an unpromising beginning for a serious theory. The post is what it is – some educated guesses about SLA’s structure and ending.

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I could see the Honorblades simply requiring Investiture, regardless of it's flavor. I could also see them being limited to only Stormlight, so it's not a huge thing. What I don't see is what Nightblood has to do with it. Nightblood was created several millennia later. If the Honorblades can consume any Investiture, then they could do that regardless of whether or not that Sword is Nightblood. I'm not seeing the connection you are trying to make here.

Several posters have opined Nightblood is the Sword of Retribution, not me. My post takes no position on it, other than to point out Nightblood consumes Investiture like Honorblades do. That sentence, I think, expresses a “what if?” Of course, Nightblood could be an Awakened Honorblade (lol…sorta).

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't think mere magic swords can sever that bond. Not without the Listener's consent.

Maybe you’re right. Again, the post is raw speculation. I can think of two reasons why the speculation is not unfounded:

First, you know I believe Odium’s Investiture doesn’t bond, but is injected into other spren through a “hole.” Voidspren are like an implanted electrode. IOW, the magic swords don’t have to sever the listener-spren bond. They can just remove the implanted electrode from the bonded spren. Your WoB doesn’t address that, only the listener-spren bond itself.

Second, certain cosmere magic consumes Investiture – Nightblood, larkins, and Honorblades to name three. I think you’d agree Nightblood, for example, could consume all listeners’ combined Investiture if allowed to. I suggest it may be possible to selectively consume different types of Investiture. Maybe, for example, if the Heralds unite their Honorblades, they only consume Odium’s Investiture? Just a thought.

Also, I suspect (without evidence) it’s easier to sever a bond than to form one.

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

This again... I'm not getting involved in this rabbit hole again. Well... why Nergaoul specifically?

As for locality, you do remember that Nergaoul and Moelach can choose to move.. or not. The Thrill is peculiarly Alethi because Nergaoul decided that is where he would be. Where he goes, the Thrill goes.

You’re right again about Nergaoul’s movements. I said the Thrill is “peculiarly Alethi” because the KR “warrior class” killers congregate in Alethela. As KR, they may not feel the Thrill, but there must be some reason they’re all there. Maybe it doesn’t mean anything.

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

For someone as pedant as you are about details, misinterpretations, and what is/is not certain, I'm surprised you'd say those words.

Me, a “pedant”? Nooooo…not me! (Touche.) I do think a close focus on logic and detail is important, and my sense is everyone here agrees, including you. The truth is in the details. That’s one reason I value folks like you who point out the inconsistencies a close reading reveals. I give you an upvote for your perspicacity (ha!) despite your different view. 

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Seeing "something familiar in a figure's eyes" is not even remotely the same things as seeing "someone familiar." He also makes absolutely no comment about any familiarity or lack thereof with anything else other than the eyes. Window to the soul they may be, eyes alone are not enough for to recognize someone familiar.

I’m not sure my wife (or me) would agree with that last sentence. But you’re right that “someone recognizable” is not necessarily the same as something “terribly familiar” in another's eyes. IMO, either could be Sadeas, though. FWIW, I consider “familiar” a higher level of knowledge of another than is “recognizable.”

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

If this is what Nalan means, then he has to have a way of gaining this knowledge, which seems.. unlikely. I don't see Honor making anyone privy to information like that, and Odium isn't the type to share trade secrets. It also means that he should try to kill off Dalinar, his character development in Edgedancer notwithstanding. (Wouldn't that be an interesting scene in Oathbringer..)

Again, I raise questions, not answers, but this is an extremely important question that IMO goes directly to plot development. Here’s the full “Edgedancer" quote for reference:

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"Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take. Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us—the greater law of protecting Roshar—is required.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection (p. 595). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Ishar tells Nale unregulated oaths could “cause a Desolation.” As you know, I believe Odium has a way to corrupt Radiantspren. I think this is Ishar’s concern. IMO, Ishar implicitly tells Nale that the Stormfather – unlike Honor – can’t be trusted with oaths. IOW, even false oaths could strengthen the Nahel bond under the Stormfather. I think the Stormfather’s acceptance of all oaths without question shows Ishar may be right.

If so, Dalinar could be someone the Stormfather corrupts. I’m reminded by stuff on the Spoiler Board that Dalinar is unlikely to be the “betrayer.” I do think he will face some bad consequence because of his bond to the Stormfather.

Once Nale sees the Desolation, he’s done killing Surgebinders. He’s on Dalinar’s side for now. But it would be an interesting scene.

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for the rest of the post, there's not much to say. (boy was I wrong about that. It's nice to know I can still discuss things on here with some modicum of passion)

I agree with Toaster Retribution. You seem to be taking the story a bit too literally for my tastes, even if it is the foreshadowing of the ending(which I do not think it is)

Fair enough. Glad I could make you feel passion again. You and TR may be right. As I said, this just feels like it should be the ending. I’m curious what you think is the ending foreshadowed in the first two books. I don’t see many candidates. It’s one reason I agreed with Zandi when he first posted.

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Sorry for rambling on longer than I anticipated.

Never be sorry for rambling. I do. The Allman Brothers do. I think you’re in good company! Regards!