[OB] Theorizing some more about Shardplate

[yulerule]

Copying my thoughts from another topic:

e been thinking more about Plate. I think it's pretty important that each section of plate (gauntlet, greave, etc) has a seed from which it can be regenerated. I'm not sure what that means, but it's relevant, I think.

During the duel, Kaladin grabbed a gauntlet, and when it was cracked enough to shatter, he kept feeding it stormlight so it would stay together.

I'm not sure if there is a WoB for this, or it's just a theory: when a KR is wearing (true/live) plate, they don't lose stormlight, they retain it perfectly.

Stormlight makes KR super-strong,fast, etc. So does (dead) plate for regular people. So a KR in Plate - is the superness additive, or does Plate function differently for a KR? I'm leaning towards function differently. Might it be a last resort source of Stormlight?

From above, on one hand KR can feed stormlight to plate so it doesn't shatter ( though maybe they don't need to for live plate. - Deadplate shatters with enough impacts. Blades are indestructible. So sprenshields like Syl was can take way more punishment than Plate.

 On the other hand, whole suit preserves a KR's stormlight - so it doesn't make sense that broken plate would suck out stormlight (to fix itself)

 

Any thoughts about this?

[Watchcry he/him]

This is what I put in @Steeldancer's thread:

I took the discussion between Kaladin and Syl about her being made and her having kids was meant for us to understand that Syl is going to create sentience/order out of windspren. They will work as plate under her direction as she is mentally linked to Kaladin. 

[Dlyol]

This is something I've been puzzled by. What benefit does a Radiant gain from Plate they don't get from Stormlight? Even its protection is not needed when you can heal with Stormlight. I've been wondering whether Stormlight can't heal wounds from some of Odium's monsters like it can from normal injuries or Shardblade injuries. We saw in Dalinar's first vision the Midnight Essences causing damage to Shardplate that wasn't repaired by feeding it Stormlight. Therefore, the point to a Radiant wearing it would be the same as for anyone wearing armour because he couldn't just heal up. 

I'm not sure realmatically how Odium could do this but it would make sense for him to devise a counter for the Radiants' defensive capabilities and from a storytelling perspective it would make one of our radiant characters feel more credibly in danger than if he were if his plate/Stormlight healing combo made him practically invincible. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dlyol

[Steeldancer he/him]

First off I'm going to assume that Shardplate has some advantages we haven't seen yet. Remember the overlaying thing for Adolin during the battle on the shattered plains? I'm sure there are more functions of sharplate we haven't seen yet, especially when they start making their own. I'm sure active Shardplate will have distinct advantages (such as the whole instant summoning thing)

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Dlyol said:

This is something I've been puzzled by. What benefit does a Radiant gain from Plate they don't get from Stormlight? Even its protection is not needed when you can heal with Stormlight. I've been wondering whether Stormlight can't heal wounds from some of Odium's monsters like it can from normal injuries or Shardblade injuries. We saw in Dalinar's first vision the Midnight Essences causing damage to Shardplate that wasn't repaired by feeding it Stormlight. Therefore, the point to a Radiant wearing it would be the same as for anyone wearing armour because he couldn't just heal up. 

That's part of it, but there's also the fact that Stormlight healing itself can't just prevent death. It can heal almost anything that the Radiant survives... But a kill blow will still take them out. Thus armor. 

I've seen a theory for why this is before, and I agree with it (was this you @Yata?).

Other methods of healing in the Cosmere allow for recovery from things that should outright kill, but Stormlight doesn't, so the theory stated that the reason is that in those other system, the death blow does indeed kill, but the investiture pours in, holding the person to their body and restoring them to life. Surgebinding though has a problem with this. It's not self contained, and relies on a bond with an external entity (the Spren). When a deathblow lands, the Nahel bond is severed, removing the ability for the Radiant to heal themselves back to life. 

So while Stormlight healing is strong... The things their fighting make them still need armor, because a kill blow still kills. 

[Yata he/him]

Yeah that was my theory @Calderis, I believe this could extent to other little other cases in the Cosmere

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Yata said:

Yeah that was my theory @Calderis, I believe this could extent to other little other cases in the Cosmere

You totally deserve another upvote for that theory.

[Dlyol]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

That's part of it, but there's also the fact that Stormlight healing itself can't just prevent death. It can heal almost anything that the Radiant survives... But a kill blow will still take them out. Thus armor. 

Ah I see so the point is not that (as far as we know) Odium's various weapons (I don't want to say Voidbringers because I think that term is definitionallly loose) have some magical way to prevent Radiant healing but rather they can do sufficient damage to destroy the central nervous system instantly. Thanks that clears that up

[knightedbishop he/him]

My best guess at the moment is a non-sentient Spren is the binding/cognitive framework around which solidified Stormlight adheres, showing up in the Physical realm as Shardplate. The armor sees itself as a whole entity, which is why it can always be regrown when shattered, even if pieces are lost. I wonder what Shardplate looks like in Shadesmar.

Total speculation: Soulcasting like we see from Shallan’s POV is how Shardplate is created. A conventional suite of armor is convinced to change, to become the matrix around which Stormlight can adhere. The convincing is facilitated by a bonded Spren, much like how Pattern facilitated with Shallan and the ship.

[Guest Edonidd]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's part of it, but there's also the fact that Stormlight healing itself can't just prevent death. It can heal almost anything that the Radiant survives... But a kill blow will still take them out. Thus armor. 

I've seen a theory for why this is before, and I agree with it (was this you @Yata?).

Other methods of healing in the Cosmere allow for recovery from things that should outright kill, but Stormlight doesn't, so the theory stated that the reason is that in those other system, the death blow does indeed kill, but the investiture pours in, holding the person to their body and restoring them to life. Surgebinding though has a problem with this. It's not self contained, and relies on a bond with an external entity (the Spren). When a deathblow lands, the Nahel bond is severed, removing the ability for the Radiant to heal themselves back to life. 

So while Stormlight healing is strong... The things their fighting make them still need armor, because a kill blow still kills. 

 

I'm not sure that's true.  In Edgedancer when Nalen/Darkness comes for Lift at Stumps orphanage he says something along the lines of; 'She's not that far along yet, she can't use Stormlight to heal.  I can just kill her.  You (Lift) I'll have to stake you down with my blade until all the Stormlight drains out.'  *Note this is not a direct quote I'm too lazy for that.

I'm pretty sure once you say at least the first or second oath like Lift had at that point, Stormlight will protect you from being killed, or at least heal you from even things like a shardblade (honorblade) through the heart.  Not sure about things like head chopped off, that's usually the ultimate nullifier in Fantasy.

 

On plate vs healing, I see that as like Wolverine vs Superman.  A bullet to the face isn't going to kill either.  But it doesn't bother Superman at all.  While Wolverine feels the pain of getting shot in the head, and then heals from it.  I don't think the plate is specifically intended to be better than just healing the wounds in all situations, but I can certainly see it being more useful in some situations.  Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly, but the other 8 orders can't.  If they're fighting in a Highstorm and/or Everstorm I'm sure the extra weight helps them out, as would protection from windblown sand, debris, and raindrops rather than having to heal from each individual impact.  Plus just not having to deal with the pain of all those individual impacts.

[+Extesian he/him]

Hmmm @Calderis this indicates that healing is pretty storming strong but i guess it depends how you define a kill blow

Quote

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.
 

 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Hmmm @Calderis this indicates that healing is pretty storming strong but i guess it depends how you define a kill blow

I understand that, but until we've been shown differently, in world knowledge says that crushed head (and presumably a spinal shard cut or decapitation) will kill a Radiant. This isn't true of other Cosmere healing. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

I understand that, but until we've been shown differently, in world knowledge says that crushed head (and presumably a spinal shard cut or decapitation) will kill a Radiant. This isn't true of other Cosmere healing. 

Yeah that's fair, it doesn't sound like is 3 up to the level of regrowing am entire body. I think radiants are stronger in healing damage to the soul than, say, bloodmakers but weaker in healing damage to the physical. 

[platnumkid]

7 hours ago, Edonidd said:

 

I'm not sure that's true.  In Edgedancer when Nalen/Darkness comes for Lift at Stumps orphanage he says something along the lines of; 'She's not that far along yet, she can't use Stormlight to heal.  I can just kill her.  You (Lift) I'll have to stake you down with my blade until all the Stormlight drains out.'  *Note this is not a direct quote I'm too lazy for that.

I believe in the passage you are referring to, Darkness says that Stump cant heal while unconscious or something like that.

A sided from protection from killing blows and unknown benefits could also be as simple as its better to not have to use your stormlight to heal.  Plate protects the KR so they can use more light to surgebind with.

[ScavellTane]

8 hours ago, platnumkid said:

I believe in the passage you are referring to, Darkness says that Stump cant heal while unconscious or something like that.

A sided from protection from killing blows and unknown benefits could also be as simple as its better to not have to use your stormlight to heal.  Plate protects the KR so they can use more light to surgebind with.

or that shardplate's are basically condensed investiture/stormlight.

[Guest Edonidd]

9 hours ago, platnumkid said:

I believe in the passage you are referring to, Darkness says that Stump cant heal while unconscious or something like that.

A sided from protection from killing blows and unknown benefits could also be as simple as its better to not have to use your stormlight to heal.  Plate protects the KR so they can use more light to surgebind with.

“Still alive,” he said to Lift. “But bleeding and unconscious.” He kicked his sphere away. “She is too new to know how to feed on Stormlight in this state. You I’ll have to impale and wait until you are truly dead. This one though, she can just bleed out. It’s happening already.”

 

This is the actual quote after he (Darkness) has stabbed Stump.  He flat out says Stump is too new to unconsciously use Stormlight, but that the only way to kill Lift is going to be to stake her down and wait until she runs out of Stormlight.  He doesn't even consider that his honorblade severing the spine will kill her outright, or that if He knocks her out first, it just hits her with a death blow of some sort. He flat out says the only way to kill her is to impale and wait.

[yulerule]

Quote

Ivory said that while a person held enough Stormlight, only a crushing blow to the head itself would kill. 

Old quote from Jasnah chapter that may or may not be Canon.