[OB] What Truthwatchers can see

[notsawerd]

So far I have seen primarily focus on the future when talking about what Truthwatchers can possibly see.  When Renarin says that he "sees" at the end of WoR could it include past, present, and future? We have the countdown indicating future.  I don't see any evidence for present, but I speculate that they will be able to.  Oathbringer chapter 6 excerpt below indicates seeing into the past is possible through connection.   

In Oathbringer Chapter 6 

Syl walked up to him in the air. “They’re like I remember them.” “Remember them?” Kaladin whispered. “Syl, you never knew me when

I lived here.”

“That’s true,” she said.

“So how can you remember them?” Kaladin said, frowning.

“Because I do,” Syl said, flitting around him. “Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds.”

“You’re honorspren.”

“The winds are of Honor,” she said, laughing as if he’d said something ridiculous. “We are kindred blood.”

[Isaiah Zayth]

What do you mean when you claim they can "see" the present? A specific definition of present would describe it as the time one actively experiences in a given instant, meaning it would only be experienced once, and that the vast majority of time in life would be either future or past.

Are you referring to a potential ability such as experiencing another's instantaneous point of view while forgoing your own? Like a "mind-hop" or mind-reader type of power?

While seeing the future is considered "of Odium", I see no problem with a Truthwatcher being able to accurately remember the past. I would assume this ability would come in handy when attempting to accurately record a historical narrative or hear a witness in court. If the ability is specific and can be used on demand, Truthwatchers could use their "past-sight" to catch people in lies or half-truths. The very name of the order seems to lend support to this theory.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Isaiah Zayth
Grammar, continued thoughts

[notsawerd]

I believe that Truthwaters are Brandon's cosmere version of clairvoyance.  By seeing the present I meant remote viewing.

From wikipedia "Pertaining to the ability of clear-sightedness, clairvoyance refers to the paranormal ability to see persons and events that are distant in time or space. It can be divided into roughly three classes: precognition, the ability to perceive or predict future events, retrocognition, the ability to see past events, and remote viewing, the perception of contemporary events happening outside of the range of normal perception"

[Calderis]

I think that all Radiants experience visions of some sort. 

Kal had his highstorm dreams, which did show actual world events (He clearly saw Szeth before knowing what he looked like). 

Shallan had her Drawings of Yalb and Shallash. 

Dalinar's are the most prominent. 

I think that Truthwatchers just have a stronger ability here, and more control. 

[Yata]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that all Radiants experience visions of some sort. 

Kal had his highstorm dreams, which did show actual world events (He clearly saw Szeth before knowing what he looked like). 

Shallan had her Drawings of Yalb and Shallash. 

Dalinar's are the most prominent. 

I think that Truthwatchers just have a stronger ability here, and more control. 

But all the other cases are present events vision not future ones

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Yata said:

But all the other cases are present events vision not future ones

Present or past. 

In Dalinar's first vision, one of the Radiants tells him "speaking of what is to come is forbidden" and this may originate primarily from the Truthwatchers and their notorious tendency to remain close-lipped. 

If it is just the truth-watchers, so be it. I honestly think though, that their assumed abilities are just their resonance strengthening an ability all Radiants have. 

"Seeing" in this instance, is going to be a spiritual ability regardless of timeframe, due to its ability to see independent of location. Strengthening that ability would allow the person to glimpse beyond their own time as well, whether forwards or backwards in time. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Calderis

[OathKeeper]

1 hour ago, Isaiah Zayth said:

While seeing the future is considered "of Odium", I see no problem with a Truthwatcher being able to accurately remember the past.

Precognition being of Odium is Vorinist garbage in my opinion. Honor said in the last WoK vision that he cannot see completely into the future, that is Cultivation's specialty (I'm not in a position to quote). I think that the double eye of the KR is set up with the top half favoring Honor and the bottom half favoring cultivation.

I've read and agree with the theory that spren are on a spectrum of honor-cultivation, most sharing qualities of each. I think along with this, honor focuses more on the past and cultivation more on the future. So where bondsmiths are the top pupil in the double eye and truthwatchers are the bottom pupil, they focus primarily on the past and future respectively. I think the visions of each order are synergistic byproducts of their relative surges. 

What do you all think? Am I nuts?

[Watchcry]

I like it. 

[Isaiah Zayth]

16 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

So where bondsmiths are the top pupil in the double eye and truthwatchers are the bottom pupil, they focus primarily on the past and future respectively. I think the visions of each order are synergistic byproducts of their relative surges. 

What do you all think? Am I nuts?

This makes a lot of sense. You're a long way from from being nuts... judging from this post, at least. I may need more evidence before making a final decision. 

Your ideas actually bring up an interesting question...

The idea that Honor focuses on the past seems logical. Support of this concept emanates from the Stormfather and his interest in ensuring oaths are honored. The Stormfather is a uniquely powerful spren which seems to retain (somehow) a small sliver of Honor. Obviously, we know oaths are at very core of being Radiant and were a direct result of Honor's involvement in the nahel bond. Oaths deepen the bond between spren and Radiant, increases a Radiant's ability to hold more stormlight, and constantly direct the important decisions in a Radiant's life (among other things). All of these things improve on features or character traits that already exist within the Radiant. All of this seems to point towards a past focus for Honor-dependent Radiants.

Does this mean that Cultivation-dependant Radiants - Truthwatchers, for example - focus less on honoring their past decisions and instead focus on growing through future opportunities? Lift - an Edgedancer - rarely seems to focus on her past mistakes. She is always in motion, pushing on to the next best thing. Shallan - a Lightweaver - wants to shut out her past and is only now coming to grips with decisions she made years ago. Contrast this with Dalinar (Bondsmith) and Kaladin (Windrunner) who - more or less - cannot accomplish anything without reviewing their shortcomings and figuring out where they went wrong. Shallan constantly views Dalinar and Kaladin as brooding and intense, while Lift and Shallan herself would be described as anything but.

I think there is something here. It seems very possible that some Radiant's possess more Honor and some possess more Cultivation. I do not know if this will become important over the course of the story, but it seems more obvious the more I think about it.

[Calderis]

@Isaiah Zayth I think you're on the right track, but your focusing to much on the separation.

Surgebinding is a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. All Radiants have part of this inbuilt. The Oaths as a restricting code of conduct are Honor. The progression/advancement of the bond by attaining further oaths is of Cultivation. The two together are surgebinding.

The nature of those oaths may change drastically, just look at Lightweavers. But the system itself relies on both. 

So I think they are by necessity going to function in a similar manner at their core. The variance is going to come in the content of their oaths, and the way in which their powers manifest. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Calderis

[Sirscott13]

Could be that different Spren types identify with either cultivation and honor more. Edgedancers's Spren obviously have a strong resonance with cultivation where as Honor Spren are akin to Honor. 

[The Invested Beard]

I think it's possible that the Truthwatchers pre-Recreance were in some way responsible for the Radiants finding out some hidden truth and breaking their bonds. Vorinism may have then associated seeing what may happen in the future with Odium/Evil as the culture of the day was pretty much devastated by the disappearance of the Radiants.

Edited September 18, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[OathKeeper]

50 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

I think it's possible that the Truthwatchers pre-Recreance were in some way responsible for the Radiants finding out some hidden truth and breaking their bonds. Vorinism may have then associated seeing what may happen in the future with Odium/Evil as the culture of the day was pretty much devastated by the disappearance of the Radiants.

Interesting!

I misspoke earlier by the way. I don't think the Ardentia use the word Odium. I think they just say it's evil or associate precognition with Voidbringers. 

I think Taravangian is very much in line with Cultivation's forward-focus while Dalinar is learning primarily from the past. 

Back to Renarin though, this could cause serious conflict between him and Dalinar. And it might mean he was staring after Adolin not only because he could see the lie, but because he could see the effects that lie might have on Adolin.

I also imagine Rosharan Precognition to be like in Dune, where you see all the potential paths an action can have and their relative probability to each other. Like "If I punch that dude, most of the potential paths of the future include him punching back, a few lead to him just storming off, and a tiny sliver of a chance that he offers me a pie in return". I don't like the idea of the future being set in stone as one linear path. This also fits best with Renarin's episode first time in the oathgate, as well as Taravangian's general attitude towards the future. 

 

[The Invested Beard]

8 minutes ago, OathKeeper said:

Interesting!

I misspoke earlier by the way. I don't think the Ardentia use the word Odium. I think they just say it's evil or associate precognition with Voidbringers. 

I think Taravangian is very much in line with Cultivation's forward-focus while Dalinar is learning primarily from the past. 

Back to Renarin though, this could cause serious conflict between him and Dalinar. And it might mean he was staring after Adolin not only because he could see the lie, but because he could see the effects that lie might have on Adolin.

I also imagine Rosharan Precognition to be like in Dune, where you see all the potential paths an action can have and their relative probability to each other. Like "If I punch that dude, most of the potential paths of the future include him punching back, a few lead to him just storming off, and a tiny sliver of a chance that he offers me a pie in return". I don't like the idea of the future being set in stone as one linear path. This also fits best with Renarin's episode first time in the oathgate, as well as Taravangian's general attitude towards the future. 

 

Yes. I know a lot of people don't like it, but I always found the precognition stuff in Dune (esp. with Paul) to be really fascinating and could definitely see Brandon pulling from that place of more knowledge of the possible future adding to confusion and not necessarily helping you in the long run.

[ParadoxicalZen]

IIRC, the 'forersight-is-bad' mindset came from the downfall of the Heirocracy, as the Ardents/priests claimed to be receiving visions from someone/thing/where, with which they tried to seize control etc. etc. hence why now they're practically servants but don't quote me on that.

I would say Truthwatchers primarily see the present and future, but could possibly also see the past