StormingTexan he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: Yah, I remember Ishar, Taln, and Ash, and (blanking on name) Darkness. None of the other's orders. Jezrien was the herald of Windrunners.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 On 10/18/2017 at 3:43 AM, Darkness said: They also aren't originally from Roshar the planet, so 'not of the local variety' totally applies. Source this. To my knowledge, Brandon has not said anything of the sort yet. On 9/17/2016 at 0:04 PM, The One Who Connects said: Dec, 2010: Who each of the Heralds are and what their natures were is important. March 11, 2014: Were the heralds born on Roshar? RAFO Sept 4th, 2014: Is he Rosharan? Taln is Rosharan. // Native to Roshar. That I have to RAFO. // The Heralds are from the same place that Taln is from. Feb 17, 2016: The Heralds do not come from Nalthis, but that is an excellent question. Apr 8th, 2016: It is normal for a cognitive shadow to get stuck to places, because they exist through investiture it is normal for them to get tied to an area. This happened with Odium and the two shards on Roshar, Preservation to Ruin, and the Heralds (To Roshar? Braize?). Relevant information on Theoryland containing the "Heralds" tag 3 hours ago, StormingTexan said: 3 hours ago, Calderis said: You're not the first I've seen say this part, and I don't understand it. Jezrien was a king prior to being a Herald. We have no evidence that he was leader of the Heralds. At least none of which I'm aware. Well dang I just always assumed this to be fact. I checked Coppermind and it states he is was the leader of heralds. The evidence though is pretty circumstantial and up for interpretation. Having just traipsed through the entire edit history of Jezrien's Coppermind Article, here's what I found: Quote September 11, 2010: Page was Created(With the Heralds page being made 8 days later...) Quote Revision as of 23:11, 11 September 2010 Jezrien is a character from the series The Stormlight Archive. One of the ten Heralds of The Almighty. Is the supposed leader, having a royal bearing. March 2, 2012: Past/Present Tense Updates Quote Revision as of 07:47, 2 March 2012He was their leader, and was described as having a royal bearing. His looked about 30 at the Last Desolation, with a short neat black beard. He used to be a king, but it has been several centuries since he reigned. November 22, 2012: His association with the Stormfather was Added Quote Revision as of 23:05, 22 November 2012 His reputation was that of being known for his fury and temper, yet also his mercy, and during the Era of Solitude, he was thought to be the king of the Heralds, as well as the master of the storms; the bringer of water and life. October 8, 2013: His association with the Stormfather was.. Rewritten (Note what's gone) Quote Revision as of 12:12, 8 October 2013 In Vorin religion Jezrien was also known as Stormfather. This stemmed from his reputation of being known for his fury and temper, yet also his mercy, and during the Era of Solitude, he was thought to be master of the storms, the bringer of water and life. November 13, 2015: Several things were added, much of which in the form it bears to this day. Quote Revision as of 13:19, 13 November 2015 He was the leader of the Heralds, and was described as having a royal bearing. He looked about 30 at the Last Desolation, with a short neat black beard. Revision as of 13:36, 13 November 2015As the leader of men and Heralds alike his leadership qualities were likely first class.It was stated by Taln that his responsibilities in preparing for a Desolation would include teaching leadership to men.[1] Whatever evidence we had for him being Leader of the Heralds existed back in 2010. 2
Darkness he/him Posted October 24, 2017 Posted October 24, 2017 I retract my statement and add it to my list of common misconceptions in the Cosmere However, while there is no explicit confirmation, I do find the Heralds extremely suspect with their super-Rosharan physical abilities, unorthodox appearances, and general sense of 'otherworldliness'.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 Dunno if anyone has thought about this, but I found another proof for Ishar=Tezim in Tezims message for Dalinar. Quote None are Radiant but him. Him refers to Tezim. And Ishar wanted Nale to kill all new Radiants... it adds up. 1
Yata he/him Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 42 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: Dunno if anyone has thought about this, but I found another proof for Ishar=Tezim in Tezims message for Dalinar. Him refers to Tezim. And Ishar wanted Nale to kill all new Radiants... it adds up. Well Ishar isn't a Radiant either
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 2 hours ago, Yata said: Well Ishar isn't a Radiant either Good point. It wouldn't surprise me if he considered himself one though, given that he is a Herald and thus patron of the Bondsmiths.
Salkara Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 Anyone else get the feeling that Ishar may have gone to the Darkside? In the prelude, Jezrien mentions that Ishar said the Oathpact will hold with only one Herald having died. In ED, Nale mentions that Ishar told him their wasn't a new Desolation. If Tezim is Ishar, we now have this: Quote The judgment of the final storm has come to destroy all men Sounds to me like one of the Heralds might be on Odium's side.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 29, 2017 Posted October 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Salkara said: Anyone else get the feeling that Ishar may have gone to the Darkside? In the prelude, Jezrien mentions that Ishar said the Oathpact will hold with only one Herald having died. In ED, Nale mentions that Ishar told him their wasn't a new Desolation. If Tezim is Ishar, we now have this: Sounds to me like one of the Heralds might be on Odium's side. I think Ishar is mad. That said, mad people are known to be easily controlled by Shards or other mysterious beings. I can easily see Ishar being manipulated or controlled by Odium, but I don't think he has willingly joined him, at least not yet. Tezims current actions seems very much like the ones from a fanatic who believes that he himself is god.
Salkara Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 14 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: I think Ishar is mad. That said, mad people are known to be easily controlled by Shards or other mysterious beings. I can easily see Ishar being manipulated or controlled by Odium, but I don't think he has willingly joined him, at least not yet. Tezims current actions seems very much like the ones from a fanatic who believes that he himself is god. Can't believe I missed there idea of madness-induced Shardic control. That's a very point point. Still, I'd argue that it occurred prior to Aharietam (sp?) due to Jezrien's comment in the prelude. It sounds like Ishar has been pushing viewpoints that we, the readers, see as helpful to Odium since before the Heralds went mad.
Calderis he/him Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Salkara said: Still, I'd argue that it occurred prior to Aharietam (sp?) due to Jezrien's comment in the prelude. It sounds like Ishar has been pushing viewpoints that we, the readers, see as helpful to Odium since before the Heralds went mad. I'd argue that from what we see of both Kalak and Jezrien in the Prelude, the madness had already begun.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, Calderis said: I'd argue that from what we see of both Kalak and Jezrien in the Prelude, the madness had already begun. This is an interesting observation. What do you think started the madness? I have always assumed that it was the (kind of) breaking of the Oathpact.
Salkara Posted October 30, 2017 Posted October 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said: This is an interesting observation. What do you think started the madness? I have always assumed that it was the (kind of) breaking of the Oathpact. If there's a magical source to it, that could be it. It could also be that thousands of years of torture, only broken by intermittent Desolations where you're supposed to be a godlike figure leading humanity to salvation would drive any person mad. 3
Blacksmithki Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 21 hours ago, Salkara said: If there's a magical source to it, that could be it. It could also be that thousands of years of torture, only broken by intermittent Desolations where you're supposed to be a godlike figure leading humanity to salvation would drive any person mad. I read somewhere that that length of time between desolations was exaggerated, isn't stormlight archives about 5-6K years into a 10K year cosmere? 5-6 - 4.5 makes the desolations at most take 1500 years for them all.
Calderis he/him Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 20 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: I read somewhere that that length of time between desolations was exaggerated, isn't stormlight archives about 5-6K years into a 10K year cosmere? 5-6 - 4.5 makes the desolations at most take 1500 years for them all. I believe it was The One Who Connects who posited roughly 350 to 400 years between desolations, with there having been 9 or 10.
Yata he/him Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: I read somewhere that that length of time between desolations was exaggerated, isn't stormlight archives about 5-6K years into a 10K year cosmere? 5-6 - 4.5 makes the desolations at most take 1500 years for them all. The number of Desolations was exaggerated (there weren't 99 Desolation) but we don't know how much of them happened. About the timeline, we know only that something like 10000 years passed from the Shattering but we don't know how much time after the Shattering the Honor and Odium's war started. This means the Desolation until the Last Desolation could have a timeframe of 5-6k to happen. It's unlikely the Desolation started as soon as the Shattering happened (Odium had to search for Ambition, not find Ambition and going to search D&D, Kill both and find Ambition, fight and kill Ambition and then arrive on Great Roshar System) but it's still a really vague timeframe because Odium could spent 1-10-100-1000 in doing all the stuff he realized....we can't know how much time to remove from the count
Stark he/him Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/29/2017 at 5:57 AM, Yata said: Well Ishar isn't a Radiant either We can't confirm that yet. Seeing as we know that at least two Heralds will be perspective characters in the second five, one for the book that showcases an order other than she has led, it is possible that the heralds could attract spren and join orders rather than relying exclusively on the Honorblades. We don't know yet.
Yata he/him Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stark said: We can't confirm that yet. Seeing as we know that at least two Heralds will be perspective characters in the second five, one for the book that showcases an order other than she has led, it is possible that the heralds could attract spren and join orders rather than relying exclusively on the Honorblades. We don't know yet. Yeah possible indeed, also if a Cognitive Shadow would probably be a worse anchor than an human for the Spren so probably a Radiant Herald is less powerful than an equivalent Radiant...still is possible, so I am curious to see how this possibility could go 1
Salkara Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Yata said: Yeah possible indeed, also if a Cognitive Shadow would probably be a worse anchor than an human for the Spren so probably a Radiant Herald is less powerful than an equivalent Radiant...still is possible, so I am curious to see how this possibility could go I feel like you're drawing on the fact that Kel couldn't use Preservation's power in MB:SH, but that was due to his lack of Connection to the Shard, not his status as a Cognitive Shadow. With the Heralds, I don't think there's evidence that they'll be less powerful than normal Radiants. They may be Cognitive Shadows, but they clearly have a presence in the Physical Realm. I think the bigger issue to them being bonded is the madness. I feel like that needs to be resolved before they bond a spren. Though, maybe the formation of a Nahel bond will be the mechanism for healing the madness?
Yata he/him Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, Salkara said: I feel like you're drawing on the fact that Kel couldn't use Preservation's power in MB:SH, but that was due to his lack of Connection to the Shard, not his status as a Cognitive Shadow. With the Heralds, I don't think there's evidence that they'll be less powerful than normal Radiants. They may be Cognitive Shadows, but they clearly have a presence in the Physical Realm. I think the bigger issue to them being bonded is the madness. I feel like that needs to be resolved before they bond a spren. Though, maybe the formation of a Nahel bond will be the mechanism for healing the madness? Actually I was not drawning by that also if the Connection to Preservation was provided by the Ire's orb and therefore not an issue for Kel. By the way, Ruin itself says that the "Shadows of a man can't be strong as a true living man" but this is just a digression. The Radiant Spren seeks an anchor to the physical from Humans, I believe (but this could be false) a Herald as CS isn't as good as anchor than a living human, mostly in the same way a Listerner would be not as good as an Human for the Nahel Bond. The Madness could be a problem, but I assume it will depend by the specific circumstance, some Heralds' madness could in theory carry them more in line with some Orders. It's too soon to say something about
Wittiest man alive Posted October 31, 2017 Posted October 31, 2017 If he is a Herald or something like that I think that it will become obvious when Dalinar eventually tries to talk to him in the highstorm dream. Either Tezim will tell him or the Stormfather will say something along the lines of that he was a herald who abandoned his post. 1
Canucck Posted November 3, 2017 Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) So I was rereading Edgedancer today and came across a few interesting lines. Quote "Was that necessary!" he demanded. "Tashi ... Tashi above!" "Tashi doesn't care much for what you do here," Darkness said as he walked away. "In fact, I'd pray that he doesn't reach your city, as I doubt you'd like the consequences. As for the thief, she would have enjoyed imprisonment for her theft. The punishment prescribed for assaulting an officer with a bladed weapon, however, is death." This happens right after Nale kills the girl who stole a basket of fruit in the Yeddaw market. Tashikk borders Emul, which is currently at war with Tukar because Tezim is trying to conquer Sesemalex Dar. This comment from Nale makes it sound a lot like he is referring to Tezim as Tashi, since he's the only nearby active conqueror we know of atm. Nale has made passing comments about Heralds before, but it seems weird that he'd imply Tashi would destroy/harm Yeddaw if he knew that Ishar/Tezim/Tashi were all the same person. I like the Ishar=Tezim theory, but this seems like a point against it. Soon after the market scene, Lift notices a mural on a wall: Quote Light from the rising sun sparkled off painted sections of the walls, here displaying a grand mural of Tashi and the Nine binding the world. I'm not sure exactly where this fits in. It sounds pretty ominous, and reminds me a lot of Odium's champion and the nine shadows. If Tashi=Tezim=Ishar, this could be a point in favour of the theory, since the other 9 Heralds seem to look to Ishar and "binding the world" could be related to his Bondsmith powers. However, Nale is still trying to protect Roshar, even if he's doing it in a somewhat evil way. For him to put his trust in Ishar, while at the same time warning people in Yeddaw about Tashi/Tezim, would definitely seem very odd to me. Of course there's the chance that this is another deception from Ishar... Is there anymore information about Tashi out there? Searching for it is kind of annoying since you just get results for Tashikk Edited November 4, 2017 by Canucck 2
Jace21 he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 I had always thought Tashi = Taln. With Nale saying that they wouldn't like the consequences of him arriving at their city because it would mean another desolation had begun. Not sure if we have cofirmation either way but since Nale seems to be warning them against the coming of Tashi but seems to respect Ishar I would lean towards Tashi =/= Ishar. Tezim could certainly be Ishar though, with another Herald being almost as likely. Since he was first mentioned I wanted him to be Kelsier but I admit that he wont be.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 8:36 AM, Salkara said: It sounds like Ishar has been pushing viewpoints that we, the readers, see as helpful to Odium since before the Heralds went mad. I don't really see the supposition with Taln and the Oathpact as being helpful to Odium. I really don't see it, which almost bothers me. Would you mind laying it out for me? On 10/31/2017 at 7:44 AM, Calderis said: On 10/31/2017 at 7:20 AM, Blacksmithki said: I read somewhere that that length of time between Desolations was exaggerated, isn't Stormlight archives about 5-6K years into a 10K year Cosmere? 5-6 - 4.5 makes the Desolations at most take 1500 years for them all. I believe it was The One Who Connects who posited roughly 350 to 400 years between Desolations, with there having been 9 or 10. Indeed it was. On 2/10/2017 at 3:02 PM, The One Who Connects said: 6,000 years before Prelude in Stormlight. [2] Debate about how long the Desolations took ensues... I'm siding with the "there were only 9 Desolations" camp and using the Heraldic Epochs for this. Dalinar's vision with Midnight Essence gives us a lot of things. Midnight Essence are a sign of an impending Desolation. The date is the Eighth Epoch, 337. -If I combine those 2 things with the assumption that after each Desolation is a new Epoch, I can assume (for theoretical convenience) that each Epoch lasted around 350 years. -350 years x 9 Desolations (so that Aharietiam was #10 for you Vorin people) is 3,150 years, give or take a few decades. -This would give Odium about 2,800 years for Ambition and D&D Mistborn Era 1 takes place around 300 years before Stormlight(because Alloy happens around that time) Elantris takes place "far earlier. It's quite... It's not thousands" compared to Hero of Ages. I'll use 1,400 years because it'll be convenient in a minute. That puts Elantris a few centuries before Rashek's Ascension. The physical city of Elantris was built "hundreds of years if not over a thousand years" before the book takes place. If we put that at another 1,400 year gap, that puts the total time-gap at 3,100 years before Stormlight Archive. (Around the same time Odium got trapped, see? Convenient) Only Elantrians can draw Aons, and since the city is built as an Aon, the first Elantrians predate it. This is important, because we are assuming that the Aons being based on the land happened after D&D got splintered and shoved into the cognitive (where location and space matter) The early Elantrians learned the language by trial and error, which should preclude the possibility of divine shardic assistance. We have a 2,800 year timeframe left. Subtract from this however long of a time you think it would take for the early Elantrians to map out the Aons and build the city of Elantris. Take away an additional span of time after D&D were splintered for Elantrians to start appearing (maybe 200-300 years?)
Necessary Eagle she/her Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Jace21 said: I had always thought Tashi = Taln. With Nale saying that they wouldn't like the consequences of him arriving at their city because it would mean another desolation had begun. I have to disagree with this. Nale talks about Tashi in the present tense. I don't think Nale knows that Taln is back, because, well, that would mean the Desolation was here. Quote Not sure if we have cofirmation either way but since Nale seems to be warning them against the coming of Tashi but seems to respect Ishar I would lean towards Tashi =/= Ishar. This seems to me to be a much more solid point against Tashi = Ishar. Though I can see Nale respecting Ishar's expertise, while acknowledging that his personality has become a bit unstable. A "He's a genius, smartest storming man I know, but he's not so good with people, if you know what I mean" situation. 1
Salkara Posted November 5, 2017 Posted November 5, 2017 6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I don't really see the supposition with Taln and the Oathpact as being helpful to Odium. I really don't see it, which almost bothers me. Would you mind laying it out for me? I mean, for me, it's pretty simple. If the Heralds were able to help humanity survive Desolation after Desolation, then getting the Heralds to abandon the Oathpact would lead to a significantly higher win probability for Odium. Flip the leader, get him to convince the others to give up, and then Odium doesn't need to worry about Herald-inspired opposition. This, of course, relies on us understanding the basics of Desolations (e.g. Odium tries to destroy everything, and the Heralds are intrinsic to humanity's continued success against him), but it doesn't require us to know the details (e.g. why does Odium have to win a Desolation, how do the Heralds help humanity, etc.).
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