[OB] Oathbringer chapters 7-9

[yulerule]

My gut feeling is that of the Kholin family, Dalinar, Elkohar, and Renarin are/will be Radiants. And Navani and Adolin will not be.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I agree, Stoneward probably fits well. I'm open to the idea that the Knights change with time to get closer to the idea, as you can't (usually) have a person be a perfect fit from the get go. But I agree I'm not completely sold on the Edgedancer part. I could see it happen, but it would take time. While Stoneward or yes, Dustbringer, could fit quite well since the start.

@Kingsdaughter613

Edited September 14, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Yay! My upvotes are back!!! Please have one @WhiteLeeopard

I think Willshaper could work too; though that might be a slightly longer route. 

Just occured to me; if Adolin is exiled could he be our interlude character? Well, we'll find out soon enough.

I wish it was Tuesday...

[+Spicker]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

It could have been built using Soulcasting, just in the opposite way most people assume. 

I'm guessing that they Soulcast the natural existing rock into smoke to build the internal tunnels, that's why they are shaped so oddly with no joints or corners anywhere. 

This is very similar to how I pictured it being formed. I don't know if it was soulcasting, but I was thinking they took existing rock and somehow manipulated/shaped it into the building they wanted. I never actually thought Urithiru was made out of old crem deposits. I also forgot about what Szeth said about being able to walk on the stone at Urithiru. Does anyone have a direct quote on that?

[Elena she/her]

1 hour ago, Duke of Lizards said:

Good point!  I don't disagree!  I was simply saying it's more than just being Alethi.  I hope that my comment didn't sound like I was refuting that she was embracing his culture.  That wasn't what I was trying to say.  

Oh no definitely! I just brought it up because I find Vorinisn really fascinating. The religion itself is not very powerful -Ardents are subjects to sovereigns, and there is a certain level of secularity. And yet the practices derived from the religion are so incredibly pervasive in their culture. It's pretty interesting (and I it reminds me a lot of where I live, lol).

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But that's just it. The Spren is dead and alive at once

So now shardblades are empowered by Schroedinger's cats?

2 hours ago, yulerule said:

Regarding blade revival: consensus is that Adolin blade is Edgedancer. Remembering the forgotten and listening to the ignored isn't Adolin.

Adolin befriends everyone regardless of rank, and he has shown to care for the lowly. He often acts as the voice of common reason to his father, which may not be exactly listening to the ignored, but it's fairly close.

[yulerule]

Dalinar has trained Adolin to be a leader. The stuff he does, a good leader does. Compare to Lift's actions where she heals a couple of people, then goes. I get the feeling that Edgedancers are flighty. They'll heal a couple of people in front of them, but they wouldn't work in a hospital. Healing just doesn't fit Adolin as a surge. - Anyway, I don't think Adolin will become a Radiant at all, some people need to remain and use dead shards.

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And this annoying tingling in the back of my mind that insists that Oathbringer still has a role to play.

Well, it's only the title of the book. Heh heh.

Hey, maybe the chapter headings are transcribed from the dead spren in the Blade that is Oathbringer! Didn't die, but something much worse! (Kidding)

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Actually, this bugged me throughout WoR. After how often the sword was mentioned - it's one of the few named blades - and its role, I thought it would have a bigger impact in the story. Then we got the ending and I went 'Aha! It's the next book!' And that book then got named Oathbringer...

@king of nowhere My belief is that dead Spren are trapped between the Cognitive and Physical realms, unable to transition and in constant pain. As a Blade they are brought more fully into the physical, allowing them to scream.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Elena said:

I find it more likely that if Ialai is behind it then she wants to carry out what she and Sadeas had planned (cause mayem among Dalinar's allies) than somehow she guessed that Adolin lost his patience with Sadeas now rather than after the Tower/ 4 on 1 duel and finally killed him, and the entire Alhethi nation including the soldiers who respect him and the king his cousin will believe he's a crazy murderer because his father was a respected warlord in his youth, on par with Sadeas.

Maybe Ialai is trying to increase the pressure, yes. But thinking her plan is using the murders to make Adolin feel bad only works if she

1) is sure beyond all doubts that it was Adolin who killed him, which in absence of a witness is unlikely. Only days after the murder, it's short sighted to only focus on one person with motive above anyone else, especially since this plot would only work on Adolin, assuming that-

2) Ialai knows him well enough to guess that Adolin is horrified about having killed Sadeas. This is important because most people in Dalinar's camp who hate Sadeas probably wouldn't feel bad about killing him - Ialai's eventual master plan only works if she can read Adolin and can tell he's a very caring person under the cocky image he projects. Sadeas definitely seemed like he totally misurnserstood Adolin during their conversation in that storm shelter, so Ialai probably doesn't know him either.

For these reasons if Ialai did it she probably has more general purposes than just slowly driving Adolin to paranoid insanity. Also worth remembering that her only scheme we saw so far included an assassin toppling a whole bridge into a chasm - not exactly slow and subtle.

Also: this runs into the risk of derailing Sadeas's murder investigation for good, since now it's no longer about who could have had reasons to kill Sadeas, but about a crazed serial killer. Would Ialai, only days after her husband's death before any other avenue for revenge waa exausted, undermine the importance of her husband's death in such a way, by lumping him with 'all the others'? We don't know yet, but I'm doubtful and that's why my first guess remains some kind of Ghostbloods plot.

I agree about your first paragraph. There is a passage from WoR I have been meaning to quote for a while now, because I feel it is relevant, but I currently cannot keep up with all the interesting discussions. I virtually do not have the time to answer to all the posts I want to answer to and it is driving me mad 

So yes, I do think Ialai would keep on with the plan to undermine Dalinar by attacking Adolin. She is too much of a political schemer to give up merely because her husband is dead. I currently suspect there is much happening behind the scenes which we are not seeing. Kadash did tell us not everyone agreed with Dalinar, the Ardents feel he is talking heresy, is it so far-fetched to think Ialai might have created another, more subtle faction to oppose Dalinar and her way to do so is to distract his attention from her new activities. I mean if Dalinar is busy trying to find the copycat killer, then he can't be paying too much attention to what else is happening. 

Thus even if she does not suspect Adolin, and I think she does based on comments she had back in WoR, her agenda may be complicated enough to capitalize onto her husband's death. I also definitely think Ialai is a better judge of character than Dalinar: it is reasonable to think she might have pierced through Adolin's major weakness and planned to use it against him. Still, she remains, to me, the most likely culprit, the one with both the motive and the means.

17 hours ago, Pattern said:

This sounds...evil XDD. But thanks for your insights about broken bones. I also only have some experiences from relatives, never broken anything myself. I totally agree that the injured wrist will play a role.

Evil again (in an amusing way)...The storm is gone here (I forgot to put out some spheres), now we've got the Weeping. I so feel with Kaladin.

I have to agree that more copycat murders would increase the pressure on Adolin. I don't see him confessing the murder of Sadeas publicly would help, though, at least not before he has found the culprit for the copycat murders. He is in a tight spot, I hope he won't be in it alone for too long. Renarin almost certainly knows and Shallan should not take much longer to find out.

Her reaction could be especially harsh or, to surprise some of us, she could be understanding. She is more or less in the same spot having killed her parents without anyone except her family knowing (about her father, mother is covered). I read a bit in WoR since yesterday and there Shallan is so positive about and infatuated with Adolin that his little lie to her might not impact too hard. And Sadeas killed is one problem solved.

The best thing to do for Adolin now would be to confess to Dalinar in private and see that he gets a commendation for removing the traitor Sadeas. Convincing Dalinar that it was the right thing to do would be tough, but Adolin has a way of getting through to his father. Also, Elhokar should have gotten rid of Sadeas long ago. If Elhokar objects, well there is work to do for the king in Kholinar, Dalinar should show him the way out of Urithiru in this case.

Although Dalinar's purpose is to unite, there are people who don't want to be united. Of those he has to get rid of, at least in Urithiru. Like not everybody has to be saved by Kaladin, not everybody will be united by Dalinar. He has to start with those willing, the rest might or might not fall in line when the thread of the Desolation becomes more imminent.

I hope that when it comes to a choice between Adolin and Team Sadeas, Dalinar will stand with his family and oust his opponents out of Urithiru. As Wit stated correctly in WoR, "it is an era for tyrants. I doubt this place is ready for anything more, and a benevolent tyrant is preferable to the disaster of weak rule."

I don't think everybody has to fall before growing and I wish that to be the case for Adolin. He does not have to become a Radiant to be an intersting character, so I would be very fine with him not cracking under the pressure, just to give room for a Nahel bond.

I fear you and I might have different opinions onto what makes an interesting story arc as I definitely think the one you are proposing kills the tension by making the suspense chapter 9 has created amount to a great big nothing. Wcharacter", then why have him kill Sadeas in the first place? Why introduce the copycat murderer? Thus whether readers want it or not, Brandon has laid the ground basis for a story arc where Adolin's character is tossed into dark places. What will come out of it remains unknown, but I for one would never want the author to merely deflate the balloon: it would makehile I understand why some would prefer if Adolin would just speak the truth, have Dalinar accept it and then move onto another story arc, one where Adolin doesn't crack under the pressure, one where Adolin doesn't come closer towards attracting a spren, I find it anti-climatic. 

If Brandon did not want to explore this story arc, if he wanted Brandon to remain the "steady solid constant good the chapters I have read completely useless and I'd rather not read useless chapters.

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

...

Thanks, great many thanks! This was such a great informative post. I recall reading about the many bones within the wrist and the various fractures, but I figured the force of the impact combined with the "snapping" sound suggested a complete break of the ulna and the radius which is why I said, wrongly, there was two bones. As I said, I am not a doctor neither did I study medicine, but based on what we have seen within the text, it seemed like a decent supposition to consider Adolin's wrist injury was a lot worst than he let's on. I also figured Rosharan medicine is not able to fix his wrist adequately which means, without stormlight healing, Adolin will remain cripple with his right hand.

I thought it was an interesting plot twist to have Alethkar best duelist lose part of his skill because of a bad injury. 

11 hours ago, scifan said:

I keep feeling like things are headed down for Adolin... that he has a bunch of pain and sorrow in his future...

Yeah, both his mental and physical health are currently being compromised.

9 hours ago, DSC01 said:

@maxal I see your point about Ialai using copycat murders to draw out the killer, but I don't think that is what is going on, myself. Devious people tend to see everyone else as either devious or foolish. She views Dalinar's honorable principles as foolish, but I think that she would also believe that those principles preclude murdering an inconvenient person. Using copycat murders to draw out the original murderer depends on them having a sense of honor that compels them to go public. I would think that Ialai suspects someone who is more devious than honorable (or, in her thinking, foolish), so whoever she thinks is responsible, I doubt that she suspects Dalinar or his immediate family.

Given that the second murder was specifically someone from a princedom allied with Kholin, and that the victim does not seem to be anyone of particular political significance, this second murder would seem to point to a random psychotic killer. That, to me, points to a secret society that wants Dalinar in control and does't mind getting their hands dirty to achieve that. Sadeas being murdered casts suspicion on Kholin, but a random Kholin ally then being murdered by the same person (apparently) defuses that suspicion.

This was a great post. I thought you did well in explaining the secret society theory. You however failed to convinced me one of the secret societies is behind it as their motives do not suggest they would choose this course of action. In short, nothing indicates any of them would take direct action against Dalinar. I believe the culprit has to be someone more into the open, someone wanting Dalinar removed and being willing to take direct actions: we have never seen the secret societies go out into the open as such. All refused to draw attention to themselves and if they act against the royal family, they will make sure there are no traces. This second murder definitely invite to the comparison, to the investigation. 

I thus do not think there is any evidence pointing towards secret societies, which isn't to say they didn't do it, but nothing ties them to it except for us knowing they exist and they are likely up to something.

Ialai however has the mean, the motive, the capacities and the cunning to have the copycat murders being part of a larger more detailed plan.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by maxal

[Sliverofnone]

38 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, this bugged me throughout WoR. After how often the sword was mentioned - it's one of the few named blades - and its role, I thought it would have a bigger impact in the story. Then we got the ending and I went 'Aha! It's the next book!' And that book then got named Oathbringer...

@king of nowhere My belief is that dead Spren are trapped between the Cognitive and Physical realms, unable to transition and in constant pain. As a Blade they are brought more fully into the physical, allowing them to scream.

What if Dalinar's plate and blade were a matched set? It could explain why Dalinar is able to perform the feats he is able to in tWoK, though we don't know what his curse/boon was.

[yulerule]

Quick question. Does Kaladin know that Sadeas is dead?

[Agent34]

18 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Quick question. Does Kaladin know that Sadeas is dead?

I don't think he does. If he hadn't left around that time he definitely would've been in another part of the tower when Adolin did the deed. We know he wasn't there when the body was discovered either.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Quick question. Does Kaladin know that Sadeas is dead?

I can't see how he could. He left before Sadeas body was discovered.

[Pattern he/him]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I fear you and I might have different opinions onto what makes an interesting story arc

That is perfectly fine. How boring would it be if everyone found the same things interesting ;-)
I wouldn't like another fall and rise of a character. We've had enough of that with Kaladin in my opinion. I don't need a repetition with Adolin. And I would not say the chapters until now were superfluous, we've got a mystery novel hidden in Oathbringer - that adds a new flavour to the series.

11 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Then again I'm unhappy with Adolin been punished at all as I think he did the right thing morally, ethically, plotwise, characterwise and ehh, alethi law is crap anyway, who cares for it . I also hate double standards. Shallan and Jasnah have done much worse and they get lauded for it.

Agreed.

10 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The most hilarious part of the blade revival idea is that one of the main columns in the idea is the Duck in the battle of Narak. 

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. My approach has always only been that spren are subject to human/parshendi thoughts and Adolin talking and personifying his Shardblade regularly (he is quite emotional towards it before his duels) could eventually lead to a revival. Also Adolin fits the profile of an Edgedancer (what the Blade seems from). More about that elsewhere.

But ducks are tasty, too. Hmmm.

10 hours ago, yulerule said:

Regarding blade revival: consensus is that Adolin blade is Edgedancer. Remembering the forgotten and listening to the ignored isn't Adolin.

In another thread there is a very nice profiling why Adolin fits to the Edgedancers. I found it very convincing.
One thing coming to my mind right now is that Adolin cares for all his lost soldiers (for example at the hunt in WoK), while most other Alethi lighteyes forget them, they don't really count as losses for the majority. Adolin cares and remembers.

7 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

So now shardblades are empowered by Schroedinger's cats?

Spren behave quite similar to quantum objects. So Why not?

9 hours ago, Spicker said:

I also forgot about what Szeth said about being able to walk on the stone at Urithiru. Does anyone have a direct quote on that?

There is one quote from a book written by Ali-daughter-Hasweth of Shinovar in WoR:

Quote

Urithiru was the connection to all nations, and, at times our only path to the outside world, with its stones unhallowed.

And from the Szeth Interlude:

Quote

If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, where walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.

We also know from the Rysn interlude in WoK that Shin only take souldcast metal which has not been mined from the stones for trade:

Quote

Thresh: "...And you give us metal for them! Metal that bears no stain of broken rock. A miracle."
Vstim shrugged. "Those scraps are practically worthless where I come from. They're made by ardents practising with Soulcasters. They can't make food, because if you get it wrong, it's poisonous. So they turn garbage into metal and throw it away."

From that Interlude it also becomes clear, that the difference between "worthless", "unholy" and "too holy to use" for the Shin might be not really recognizable for outsiders. So "uncursed", "unhallowed" and "holy" might be used as synonyms by us.

The stones of Urithiru being soulcast would make them walkable for Shin, I guess. The strata in the walls or the tower indicate that those stones were not soulcast though. Of course, as has been stated above, the tunnels could have been soulcast into the stone, transforming stone to smoke like Jasnah did in Kharbranth. Perhaps stones shaped by soulcasting would also make them unhallowed?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Pattern

[DSC01 he/him]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

This was a great post. I thought you did well in explaining the secret society theory. You however failed to convinced me one of the secret societies is behind it as their motives do not suggest they would choose this course of action. In short, nothing indicates any of them would take direct action against Dalinar. I believe the culprit has to be someone more into the open, someone wanting Dalinar removed and being willing to take direct actions: we have never seen the secret societies go out into the open as such. All refused to draw attention to themselves and if they act against the royal family, they will make sure there are no traces. This second murder definitely invite to the comparison, to the investigation. 

I thus do not think there is any evidence pointing towards secret societies, which isn't to say they didn't do it, but nothing ties them to it except for us knowing they exist and they are likely up to something.

Ialai however has the mean, the motive, the capacities and the cunning to have the copycat murders being part of a larger more detailed plan.

 

I don't think that they're working against Dalinar. I think they're working for him. Or at least, for the sake of this hypothesis. I have no idea who is responsible for the copycat murder and will concede that it is possible that Ialai or even Renarin is responsible.

There is precedent for secret societies to work both for and against Dalinar (different factions of Diagramists did both in WoR). That's why I suspect them: if killing a Kholin ally was meant to shift blame away from Sadeas's enemies, a secret society seems the most likely culprit. The only reason that Renarin is not my prime suspect is that that would be sad.

[yulerule]

Regarding the copycat murders - I think all three fan theories are wrong. Not Ialai, not Renarin, and not the Ghostbloods or some other secret society.

[DSC01 he/him]

It is possible that it was one of the Sadeas men who found the body and therefore knew how Sadeas looked, laying there. Assuming that it must have been a political assassination from the Kholin camp, he killed one of their allies and laid him out in the same way to send a message.I don't that we'll find out before November, though. This has the feel of a mystery that will stretch out for a while, much like the saddle strap in WoK.

[bdoble97]

Spoiler

What if the other murder is Adolins spren. That was awoken when Adolin committed murder. 

 

[Mercy he/him]

Kal's brother is only a baby at the moment, but we've got this convenient gap between books 5 and 6 which give him an ideal chance to age to the point where he can be a character with significant involvement in the back five. Dare I say it, but Odium's Champion? Kal mentions his mother's age, and how unusual it is for her to have had a child - combine that with the familiar eyes... well Oroden's eyes could be nicely similar to Kaladin's - making them look familiar to Dalinar.

[heridfel]

If Shardblades were reasonably generic in appearance, then stealing one from the guy you just killed isn't a completely terrible idea, presuming you can somehow smuggle it away. Of course, they are rare enough that it'd be pretty reasonable for anyone you know to ask, "Hey, where did that Shardblade come from?" That is an awkward question - the sort that leads to a whole bunch of darkeyes getting killed. But when each blade is distinct enough that someone looking at it says "Hey, why do you have the Shardblade of the guy who was murdered a little while ago?"... yeah, good luck convincing people that you found it tossed out a window.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 minutes ago, heridfel said:

If Shardblades were reasonably generic in appearance, then stealing one from the guy you just killed isn't a completely terrible idea, presuming you can somehow smuggle it away. Of course, they are rare enough that it'd be pretty reasonable for anyone you know to ask, "Hey, where did that Shardblade come from?" That is an awkward question - the sort that leads to a whole bunch of darkeyes getting killed. But when each blade is distinct enough that someone looking at it says "Hey, why do you have the Shardblade of the guy who was murdered a little while ago?"... yeah, good luck convincing people that you found it tossed out a window.

Considering how ultra valuable they are (were?) I could see someone picking up the Shardblade and going to the other side of the world. Set yourself up as a high noble with a Shardblade in a kingdom on the other side of Roshar, and might be far too long before they are found again. By then the topic likely wouldn't matter.

[Salkara]

13 minutes ago, heridfel said:

If Shardblades were reasonably generic in appearance, then stealing one from the guy you just killed isn't a completely terrible idea ... But when each blade is distinct enough that someone looking at it says "Hey, why do you have the Shardblade of the guy who was murdered a little while ago?"... yeah, good luck convincing people that you found it tossed out a window.

 

Quote

“How did you get it?” Roshone asked.

“Does it matter?”

He didn’t reply, but they both knew the truth. Owning a Shardblade was enough—if you could claim it, and not have it taken from you, it was yours.

The biggest issue is that Sadeas was a Highprince, so there will be some repercussion to the murderer but probably not much. Sadeas was out of favorites with the king, so Elhokar probably won't require the murderer to give up the Blade. If the murderer were able to bond it first, taking it away would be even more difficult. A Shardbearer can't be jailed because they can just cut their way out. Retaliation from Sadeas's camp would be the biggest concern, but nobody else in the camp has a Shardblade so there's a reasonable chance they wouldn't be able to take it away.

If some minor noble or common soldier had murdered Sadeas, I have a hard time believing they'd toss away Oathbringer.

[lookupwards]

So let's pretend you're in Bridge Four...

The leader you trust and have faith in went off somewhere dangerous without any help.  The powers you've sort of been developing don't seem to be working now that Kaladin isn't close by.  Sure you can't "fly" like Kaladin, but I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't want to follow after towards Kaladin, even if it takes you several more days, months, or years to catch up.  

I also find it suspicious that whenever Bridge Four is mentioned it usually ends up being vague just saying bridgemen or Bridge Four (with I believe the exception for Lopen and Rlain are the two members I remember at least being mentioned).  I believe a small contingent of Bridge Four members have set out to help or find Kaladin, headed maybe towards Kholinar rather than Hearthstone and at some point will save or assist Kaladin when he is in a bind.

My only gripe with this is Kaladin just recently spoke with Dalinar by spanreed.  If this ends up being the case, shouldn't Dalinar have mentioned some of his men are headed his way?  I don't know, what do you guys think? 

[OathKeeper]

On 9/14/2017 at 6:47 PM, yulerule said:

 - Anyway, I don't think Adolin will become a Radiant at all, some people need to remain and use dead shards.

I agree that he won't be a KR, but why must some remain to wield the dead shards? I kind of think the Stormfather or else the collective bound-spren of the refounded KR will insist on doing away with "monstrosities".

In fact, I wonder if there's a way to release the dead spren. It seems cruel to keep the shards around.