Planetary Focus, a specialization of the fundamentals of Magic.

[Calderis he/him]

I've never thought about this significantly, so I'll admit this is a rushed theory post. @Confusedasked me a question on my idea that Bonds are significant everywhere, not just Roshar.

What I've realized in answering is that I believe all Foci are significant Cosmere wide, and are only given exceptional prominence on their respective Shardworlds. Let's break this down by the Foci we know. 

Nalthis: Commands. This is the most obvious example of what I mean. What are the commands of Awakening if not a specialized form of intent? We know that intent is a necessary component of almost all the magic systems. Investiture requires a mind to guide it. 

Sel: Forms. This one is far less obvious. The nature of Sel's focus is the structure or shape of the chosen medium. The characters of AonDor, soulstamps, and Dahkor bone runes. We have seen this elsewhere if it's not obvious. Khriss relates the rune forms of Sel's systems to the structure of the metals on Scadrial. I also think that the pattern of cracks in the spiritweb that determine which powers a person has access to are related to this as well. 

Scadrial: Metal. Metal is much less prevelant Cosmere wide in the magic systems, but it is still something significant to more than just Scadrial. We've been told by Brandon that metal is significant Cosmere wide, even if it hasn't been explained how. On Threnody, silver is obvious significant, and on Roshar spren can only manifest as metal objects. Nightblood is our only instance of Awakened metal and well... It's Nightblood. 

Roshar: undetermined. I'm in no way shy about saying that I think Roshar's focus is Bonds. This theory doesn't change that, but it also doesn't lend any credence to it. Bonds exist elsewhere, but every aspect I can think of involves a Splinter, which is essentially what Spren are. So this would work for either focus idea. Seons and Nightblood are both capable of bonding. The only idea I have for bonds that doesn't involve a Splinter is an idea that Tanavast's push for a champion implies is inherent to the Shards themselves. The champions. Tanavast implies this is a rule that will bind Odium, and as others have stated before, I believe we've already seen this happen in the clash between Marsh and Elend at the end of HoA. Both we're being empowered by their respective Shards. Champions of Ruin and Preservation. 

So there's my thinking. The Foci are made substantially more significant on their Shardworld. If my thinking is correct though, they are all things that are significant to the Cosmere's magic as a whole. Not just their world. 

[Oversleep]

I see where you're coming from. However, my thinking is completely opposite.

You say focii are important everywhere due to their nature; I say that focii are things that share some properties which are prerequisities to be able to be a focus.

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Overstorm said:

You say focii are important everywhere due to their nature; I say that focii are things that share some properties which are prerequisities to be able to be a focus.

I'm not sure I understand the difference. If those prerequisities for a focus are Cosmere significant, what exactly is different from what I'm proposing? 

[Oversleep]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not sure I understand the difference. If those prerequisities for a focus are Cosmere significant, what exactly is different from what I'm proposing? 

The direction of the implication How do I explain this...

I say focii are picked out of possible stuff (which has to have some properties). You say that the stuff focii are picked out of is special (those properties are significant).

"Squares have to be rectangles" versus "Since squares are rectangles, rectangles are special". Something like that.

[Khyrindor he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I've never thought about this significantly, so I'll admit this is a rushed theory post. @Confusedasked me a question on my idea that Bonds are significant everywhere, not just Roshar.

What I've realized in answering is that I believe all Foci are significant Cosmere wide, and are only given exceptional prominence on their respective Shardworlds. Let's break this down by the Foci we know. 

Nalthis: Commands. This is the most obvious example of what I mean. What are the commands of Awakening if not a specialized form of intent? We know that intent is a necessary component of almost all the magic systems. Investiture requires a mind to guide it. 

Sel: Forms. This one is far less obvious. The nature of Sel's focus is the structure or shape of the chosen medium. The characters of AonDor, soulstamps, and Dahkor bone runes. We have seen this elsewhere if it's not obvious. Khriss relates the rune forms of Sel's systems to the structure of the metals on Scadrial. I also think that the pattern of cracks in the spiritweb that determine which powers a person has access to are related to this as well. 

Scadrial: Metal. Metal is much less prevelant Cosmere wide in the magic systems, but it is still something significant to more than just Scadrial. We've been told by Brandon that metal is significant Cosmere wide, even if it hasn't been explained how. On Threnody, silver is obvious significant, and on Roshar spren can only manifest as metal objects. Nightblood is our only instance of Awakened metal and well... It's Nightblood. 

Roshar: undetermined. I'm in no way shy about saying that I think Roshar's focus is Bonds. This theory doesn't change that, but it also doesn't lend any credence to it. Bonds exist elsewhere, but every aspect I can think of involves a Splinter, which is essentially what Spren are. So this would work for either focus idea. Seons and Nightblood are both capable of bonding. The only idea I have for bonds that doesn't involve a Splinter is an idea that Tanavast's push for a champion implies is inherent to the Shards themselves. The champions. Tanavast implies this is a rule that will bind Odium, and as others have stated before, I believe we've already seen this happen in the clash between Marsh and Elend at the end of HoA. Both we're being empowered by their respective Shards. Champions of Ruin and Preservation. 

So there's my thinking. The Foci are made substantially more significant on their Shardworld. If my thinking is correct though, they are all things that are significant to the Cosmere's magic as a whole. Not just their world. 

This is how I've started to think about it as well; thank you for putting it into words. Some additions: Commands are also mentioned (granted, by Vasher) on how to deal with using a Shardblade correctly. And on the importance of metal everywhere, there's the fact (I dare to say fact now because of that WoB from GenCon) that Metal can be used Hemalurgically to steal anything and the fact that aluminum is Investiture-cancelling everywhere we've seen. I'm only as sure as you are about Roshar's focus, but the idea that seons are basically spren and the bonds can be seen anywhere is one of the things that got me thinking the same thing as you.

[Frostlander]

Perhaps the foci are somehow present to varying degrees throughout the cosmere due to Adonalsium's influence before his death. Metal may be significant throughout the cosmere because it possibly was significant before the shattering. I almost wonder if it is especially important on Scadrial because that is a planet where shards created humans, perhaps drawing even more heavily on the idea that metal is important.

I am a proponent of the bond-as-focus theory for Roshar, too, and have argued that Honor represents a distilled version of divine covenant-forming. That doesn't mean that previously existing bonds, possibly related to pre-shattering covenant-forming can't exist. It might just mean that the importance of that divine aspect becomes crazy important on the planet that Honor invested in. 

ETA: I am not restricting bond formation on other planets to the pre-shattering era. They can still be formed because the conditions for formation already existed.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Frostlander

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Frostlander said:

I am a proponent of the bond-as-focus theory for Roshar, too, and have argued that Honor represents a distilled version of divine covenant-forming. That doesn't mean that previously existing bonds, possibly related to pre-shattering covenant-forming can't exist. It might just mean that the importance of that divine aspect becomes crazy important on the planet that Honor invested in. 

And similar to Oversleep's issue with what I'm saying, I believe exactly the opposite. I believe that Honor specifically chose Roshar to invest in because of it's focus aligning with his intent. 

[Frostlander]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And similar to Oversleep's issue with what I'm saying, I believe exactly the opposite. I believe that Honor specifically chose Roshar to invest in because of it's focus aligning with his intent. 

This is where I start to get in over my head on the Cosmere Theory board...

Are you saying that Adonalsium (or some other force) made Roshar bond-tastic before the Shattering? What would that be? Adonalsium's planetary laboratories for testing foci? (I'm not being sarcastic--just intrigued.) 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Frostlander said:

This is where I start to get in over my head on the Cosmere Theory board...

Are you saying that Adonalsium (or some other force) made Roshar bond-tastic before the Shattering? What would that be? Adonalsium's planetary laboratories for testing foci? (I'm not being sarcastic--just intrigued.) 

The Foci seem to be products of the Shardworlds and not the Shards themselves. This is why Scadrial, a world with two Shards, has a single focus. The magic systems develop as an interaction between the present investiture and the world itself. 

So the focus, if it was created intentionally, would have been created by Adonalsium when he crafted the planet. The only exception to this is Scadrial as Ruin and Preservation created a new world rather than choosing from one of the preexisting planets in the Cosmere. 

I strongly believe that this is actually why R&P chose to create a world in the first place. They were able to choose the focus and have a more direct handle in shaping the magic system on their world. 

Compare this to Roshar, where the Spren and bond heavy nature of the planet existed prior to the Shards arrival (as evidenced by the Parshendi existing there prior), and it seems as though the Shards were able to expand upon the predefined system that the world already had, rather than creating a new system defined by their nature's only. 

Much of this is speculation, but it's my head canon. 

[Catladyman]

I feel like @Calderis is spot on with this theory. Perhaps the foci of the different forms of investiture are the remnants of Adonalsium's investiture pre-shattering. It also forces the question of what would happen if a Shard left a planet and invested another with an existing magic system. For instance, if Endowment left Nalthis for First of the Sun, another form of investiture that seems to suit her intent? How would she boost/change the system there, and what would Nalthis lose?

[+Extesian he/him]

I've had almost no time to read forum posts lately but I gotta read yours. I've been meaning to do a full blown theory on this for some months, not gonna happen for the remainder of the year, so I'll summarise my largely untested thoughts. 

I believe every manifestation of investiture in the physical and spiritual realms is altered wavelengths. Metals as we know enable allomancy and feruchemy by the molecular structure of the metal. Sel magics by form. I think those forms are basically changing the wavelength of investiture (or however you want to describe it, musical harmonies etc).

You need the right very specific wavelength to create a magical effect. I think it's the same with all focuses. On Roshar the spren or the bond (doesn't matter which) filters investiture into a certain wavelength, which the surgebinder can then use as the spren is woven into their spirit web. And i think even with commands/any intent requirement you are filtering investiture from the spiritual realm through your cognitive aspect where your thoughts actually change it to a certain wavelength, which dictates the outcome. Perception is so important because investiture filters firstthrough the cognitive realm and its wavelength is changed by perception.

That's a very short summary and there are gaps, which is why i haven't done a full theory. The biggest one is intent, i haven't convinved myself that does actually affect investiture 'wavelength'. And of course the whole basis could be wrong. I also need to get a proper WoB collection on it. But khriss' words and Brandon's occasional use of that terminology led me this way. 

A couple of quick WoBs before i go back to real life  last 3 are the most significant

Quote

Darkness: Further on in that… do different gemstones hold a different flavour, or different ‘frequency’ of Stormlight?

Brandon: Umm…. Nnnnnnnnooooooo… But kind of? Here’s the thing: So with the gemstones on Roshar… scientifically some of these gemstones are just really close to one another. Like chemical formula and whatever. But, their cognitive selves and their spiritual selves are gonna be very different because of human perception, right? (sure) And so, the answer is both a no and a yes because of that. So people’s perception has sort of changed how the magic works, to an extent… but it’s the same amount of investiture, just with slightly different flavourings.

Quote

DK: That’s the answer to every question like that!
BS: Right, but that’s the whole point of the Cosmere, it's that Spiritual Realm is filtered through Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, right? And this lense is going to filter how things work, perception is really important in the Cosmere. That’s where most of these things come from so, yeah that is the answer to everything. But that's the point of the answer to everything, is that there aren't a lot of hard and fast rules when it comes to a lot of these things, with Identity and whatnot is going be filtered through perception. 

Quote

"Q: My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?
 
A: Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out. Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them."

Quote

OPEN THE FRIDGE

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

BRANDON SANDERSON

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

OPEN THE FRIDGE

Not quite...

BRANDON SANDERSON

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

OPEN THE FRIDGE

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

Quote

QUESTION

Is there a way to tell between different Investitures?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Brandon misunderstood the question a little in the beginning - he thought the question was "can every Shard's magic detect other Investitures?"] Most of the magics have built into them that ability, but I wouldn't say that everyone does. I am trying to remember if all of them have... I lot of them have a power that would allow you to do that, but I don't know if every one of them does.

QUESTION

[Clarification]

BRANDON SANDERSON

If you were really good at burning bronze, you could distinguish between different types of Investiture from different planets even. And that sort of skill does exist in other magic systems.

ARGENT

Is it like a wavelength kind of thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea, that's exactly what it is.

 

[Calderis he/him]

@Extesian I don't think that's exclusionary. The focus would just be an amplified waveform modifier in its respective magic. 

[FiveLate]

@Extesian

Wow, I had never seen the play dough machine one before and it totally made compounding clear to me.  I never really understood how you got feruchemy results from burning allomantic metals.  Now I have this visual of a piece with x shape for allomency on one end that hooks up to the machine, but with y shape on the output for the Feruchemic result!

Thanks, I knew the results and what was Canon, but just couldn't wrap my head around how it worked!

@Calderis

Looking at the free unfocused Investiture/splinters on each planet should help define how all the foci relate to each other.

• Seons take the shape of an Aon, and probably predate Odium coming to Sel.  
• Spren on Roshar, help with the growth of animals, allow Parshendi to change forms, and emulate physical, emotional, and intellectual activities.
• I can't come up with anything for Nalthis off the top of my head, but Returned are a fairly recent event....so something prior to them..
• Scadrial, since it was made by Preservation and Ruin, and Brandon says it is odd, may not have an example.
• Taldain Dark side magic would probably give good info if we new anything.
• First of the Sun, all the magic appears to be cognitively related.
• Threnody, All the Rules seem to have a physical basis.
• Ashyn...disease based magic..ummm

Edited September 12, 2017 by FiveLate
Continuation.

[Landis963 he/him]

1 hour ago, FiveLate said:

@Calderis

Looking at the free unfocused Investiture/splinters on each planet should help define how all the foci relate to each other.

• Seons take the shape of an Aon, and probably predate Odium coming to Sel.  

Seons do not predate Odium's arrival, by WoB. 

[Calderis he/him]

Yeah. Seons and Skaze didn't exist prior to the splintering of D&D

[FiveLate]

Nice I never new that.

[Confused]

@Calderis, apologies for my late arrival to the party, especially since I issued the invitation.

I understand your theory to have two pillars: (1) the elements that comprise Focuses (forms, metals, commands, and spren/bonds) are “significant” throughout the cosmere but have greatest “prominence” on their respective Shardworlds; and (2) Focuses are a product of their Shardworld and not their Shards.

I agree Focus elements exist elsewhere than their Major Shardworld; but why do you say they have “significance” elsewhere? I see why commands might be a specialized version of what Khriss calls “intent” (not to be confused with Shard “intent” – one reason I call Shard “intent” a Mandate). But your other examples don’t seem to line up as well with your “general-to-special” theory.

ASIDE: I thought metals have cosmere-significance because that’s Investiture’s solid state and because practitioners of the Metallic Arts can use metal as their Focus everywhere. Is there something I missed?

On 9/11/2017 at 9:33 PM, Calderis said:

The Foci seem to be products of the Shardworlds and not the Shards themselves. This is why Scadrial, a world with two Shards, has a single focus. The magic systems develop as an interaction between the present investiture and the world itself.

 The first and last sentences in this quote seem to me contradictory. (I assume “present investiture” means the Shards’ Investiture?) I agree Shards created their magic systems by adapting to the magic they found on their chosen planets. I also agree Shards chose their planets largely because of the “inherent magic” Adonalsium left on their planet.

But I believe Focuses are part of the magic systems the Shards created. Neither Adonalsium nor the Shards need Focuses. IMO, the “cosmere-wide” elements you describe became Focuses because of the same “Shard-Shardworld” interactions that produced the magic systems. I think this might explain your “Focuses are specialized versions of cosmere-wide phenomena” theory.

I’ll quote my reply to @Cowmanthethird in another of your threads to describe how I think Focuses developed on each Major Shardworld (other than Scadrial):

On 9/6/2017 at 1:46 PM, Confused said:

I think each planet’s inherent Investiture and original “design” limit what might serve as a Focus there. The Shards adapted existing magic to form their magic systems, choosing a Focus consistent with the planet’s inherent Investiture and design. This sounds to me like Focuses develop from an interaction between the planet and the Shard, as you propose. I do think the planetary component precludes Shards who share planets to choose their own Focuses independent of the other resident Shard(s).

I explain what I think each planet’s original magic was in my Pre-Shattering Magic post. On Sel, Adonalsium Invested the ground. On Roshar, he Invested the highstorms. On Nalthis, he Invested electromagnetic radiation. On Taldain, he Invested the oceans.

Sel’s Focus is forms because the Shards IMO added their Investitures to the Investiture Adonalsium left in the ground. Shard Investiture turned topographic features rooted in the ground into the magical language that could direct and Focus the Dor. Their splintering fragmented the initial system, but I think that just created Focus “sub-types,” as you put it.

Roshar’s Focus is spren (IMO) because Adonalsium’s “touch and design” makes Roshar Realmically-permeable. Power leaks into Roshar’s Cognitive Realm and Invests ideas before the power passes into the Physical Realm. Khriss says Shard Investiture “expanded” this spren-based system to, among other things, create Radiantspren as Surgebinding’s Focus (IMO).

Nalthis’ Focus is its visualized commands, with emphasis on the visualization. I think this grows out of Nalthis’ original “quantum physics” design that I describe in the “Pre-Shattering Magic” post. Awakeners’ visualization IMO calls to mind “Schrodinger’s cat” and the ardents’ WoK experiment that fixes the length of firespren: only when an object is observed (and Cognitively “imprinted”) can its actual state be known. To imprint behavior onto the Breath of an Awakened object, Awakeners must visualize how they want the object to behave. Brandon says commands are “like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.”

Taldain’s Focus is unknown. I speculate it’s an Autonomy splinter that attaches itself to the Sand Master. I further speculate the splinter chooses its host based on the host’s degree of self-reliance. I suspect this splinter resembles Radiantspren and Divine Breath, which also choose a host based on character. Please note this is raw speculation without much evidence.

@Extesian, I’ve seen the first WoB you cite, but haven’t appreciated its significance: “people’s perception has sort of changed how the magic works.” We know that’s generally true, like with Kaladin’s slave brands. But Brandon says that’s why fabrial gemstones of nearly identical chemical composition can nonetheless produce different magical results! Lots to chew on there. Thanks!

Also, if you haven’t yet read it yet, I suggest you look at @skaa's post that explains cosmere magic in terms of string theory. You might find something there to support your wavelength theory.