Necessary Eagle Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 The Desolation starts when Taln cries uncle, right? But spren started bonding people again years before he showed up. How did they know he was going to crack soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 The unmade became more active again, maybe that tipped them off. Maybe Cultivation or the Nightwatcher saw something and let the other spren know. The Stormfather started sending visions, but we don't know how long he has been doing that. All in all I think things started to get hectic in the CR and the spren got nervous and figured it was time to do something before it was too late. Do we know what spren type was the first to cross? Probably Cryptics, right? Maybe they figured something out, sent pattern as a test. IIRC Wyndle said that all the other spren were sending some of their own to cross, so the Circle decided to follow suit. Syl was told not to, what does that imply? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted September 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Basically, what I'm saying is, what's the process of a Herald giving up like? Because I was under the impression that the weakest link says, "Stop, I can't take it anymore!" and the Heralds get sent back immediately. But if someone- the spren, the unmade, whoever- knows that a Desolation is underway years before Taln shows up, then either there's a gap period between Heralds giving up and getting sent back, or there's something weird we don't know about Taln's surrender. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Ah gotcha. Yeah you're right, something does seem fishy. It's been proposed that Odium was going easy on Taln for all that time so that humanity would turn to fighting itself, forget the KR, forget how to fight desolations and generally be easier to beat. If Odium decided that humanity has grown soft enough and now is a good time to crank up the heat and force Taln to break, the Unmade would start preparing for the coming desolations and the spren might know what that meant. So Odium decides it's time to hit hard, and tries to break Taln in earnest. The Unmade hear its go time and do their thing, knowing the desolation is going to start in a few years. The nahel spren realize what's going on and cross over. This only works if Odium really was going easy on Taln for 4500 years, but right now it's the only explanation I can come up with. I agree that the heralds are probably sent to Roshar immediately if one of them breaks. Edit: Here's a quote from Tanavast in one of Dalinar's visions: Quote “Men must face them together,” the figure said, stepping up to Dalinar, placing a hand on his shoulder. “You cannot squabble as in times past. He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing.” Edited September 10, 2017 by Ciridae 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 Unless Taln was really really mentally strong. So immovable that odium was able to torture him for 4,500 years. Or however long it is. Perhaps he began to crack, and that gave warning, before he actually broke entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Necessary Eagle said: Because I was under the impression that the weakest link says, "Stop, I can't take it anymore!" You are the weakest link, goodbye. 1 hour ago, Ciridae said: This only works if Odium really was going easy on Taln for 4500 years, but right now it's the only explanation I can come up with. I agree that the heralds are probably sent to Roshar immediately if one of them breaks. I just really like the image of Taln as a guy so badass that he took torture for 4,500 years like a boss. But yes, I agree that this theory is likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby_H Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Two thoughts: 1) Is time on Roshar & in Herald Hell the same?... If not what took a few moments in Hell could have taken a couple years on Roshar... 2) Its quite possible that when Taln broke, there was a series of events that took place between him shouting "uncle" and him appearing on Roshar. Kind of like it takes 10 heart beats for a shardblade to form. Its not an instantaneous event, its a chain reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 There is an Epigraph in WoR from the diagram that talks about how "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack". I always took this go imply that to certain beings or powers it was visible that Taln was close to cracking some time before he did. After all, "soon" could easily refer to a couple of decades when compared to 4500 years. It is very possible Odium went easy on Taln but I also prefer to think he was just a badass who tanked all Odiums efforts for over 4 millenium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Are we sure Desolations start because the Heralds break? Personally, I believe that is not the case, though I would be happy to be proven wrong. It seems to me it could be that the Heralds are released whenever the Desolation is coming, not the other way around. That the Oathpact might say something like "The Heralds can come ahead of the Desolation to prepare mankind, but Odium gets to torture them in between Desolations." Instead of saying something like "Odium gets to torture the Heralds until one (or all) of them breaks, and then they are released into a Desolation." The first seems more likely to me, which would mean something else causes the Desolations. Because it certainly would appear that the Desolations would come regardless of whether the Heralds even exist or not, much less that it's tied to how much torture they can withstand. If Honor could have prevented all Desolations by simply not creating the Heralds, then why create them in the first place? If the Desolations are caused by the Heralds breaking under Odium's torture, then Honor is the cause of the Desolations, not Odium. Besides, why would he want his Heralds to be broken before they come to prepare and fight alongside mankind? I imagine it wouldn't be a winning strategy to ensure your Generals are broken before they lead an army. It's one thing to take the risk, quite another thing to guarantee it. As for what else might be causing them, I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of the Listeners (or anyone else I suppose) binding Void spren, and the reason the Radiant spren know it's coming ahead of time is because the Void spren become active, which the Radiant spren would notice. As for what causes the Void spren to become more active, I'm not sure. I'm under the impression that the 4500 year gap between this Desolation and the last is longer than all the others, but I'm not sure if that's the case (can't recall where I got that idea). If it isn't then it could simply be a periodic thing that would happen no matter what. If it is then I really have no idea because anything I can think of can't account for the extended gap this time. I'm also under the impression that the Radiants didn't disappear between Desolations, that they were just always around up until the Recreance. So the Radiant spren in the past were just always making pacts with people and didn't have this problem. This time is unique in Roshar's history in more than one way. But in either case, before we can guess how the spren know a Desolation is coming we first need to know exactly what causes the Desolations in the first place, and we don't have that information, at least not for certain (that I know of). However, unless someone can show me otherwise, at the moment I'm convinced it is not caused by the Heralds breaking under torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted September 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Pretty sure WoB is that Desolations start when a Herald has been on Roshar for X amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansalem Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said: Pretty sure WoB is that Desolations start when a Herald has been on Roshar for X amount of time. That doesn't actually go against my post, though. Could just as easily mean that the Heralds are released X amount of time before the Desolation starts, which would support me here. I would like to see the actual WoB though, but I don't know where to find those. But like I said, if the Desolations are tied to the Heralds then Honor caused them, not Odium. Edited September 12, 2017 by Ansalem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Ansalem said: I would like to see the actual WoB though, but I don't know where to find those. Have three of them. Draw your own Conclusions. Quote AhoyMatey Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture? Brandon Sanderson This person is asking the right kinds of questions. Quote Question () What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. Brandon Sanderson Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. Question Oh. So they've got a time limit. Brandon Sanderson They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. Question So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations? Brandon Sanderson They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think. Quote Q: What ends a desolation? Is it mainly about winning the battles or is the fighting just about holding out and buying time for something else? A: It involves the departure of the Heralds. Not that these are as relevant, Desolations did not happen before humans lived on Roshar. Ooh, here's a scary thought: Thunderclasts could exist outside of a Desolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killik Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 20 hours ago, Jace21 said: There is an Epigraph in WoR from the diagram that talks about how "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack". I think you were on the right track here, but should have pulled the whole epigraph. "Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia" Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: Pattern 1 It is a somewhat common theory that Mr. T. had Cosmere and or CR insight on his special day, and so I generally take his Diagram ramblings as more authoritative than most ideas on these forums. However, I have also seen a WoB like whatNecessary Eagle mentions, I can't link it but i'm fairly sure it was to the effect of "The desolation ends when the Heralds return to Braize." This would infer (not confirm) that they begin with the Heralds being released back onto Roshar. 7 hours ago, Ansalem said: ...But like I said, if the Desolations are tied to the Heralds then Honor caused them, not Odium. It is not that Honor caused the Desolations via the Heralds, but that Odium was causing rampant destruction and Honor instituted the Heralds to combat this. The Oathpact was put in place to confine Odium and end the destruction. When the Heralds break, Odium's power is re-released to Roshar and cause massive destruction again - Desolation. They are tied to the Desolations because they can only occur when the Heralds are back on Roshar, but they aren't the cause. Now, I particularly like the theory that Taln was broken long ago by Odium but was not released back to Roshar. Instead Odium continued to work on him and now has some measure of control over Taln's mind. This would explain why the spren know something had changed. I think this theory stemmed from this line, the thinking was that the words Taln was hearing were never his (but Odium's) but were beaten into his mind so relentlessly that they are now his own words. Quote The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his WoR I-7 Taln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killik Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 The WoB i mentioned was the 2nd linked by The One Who Connects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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