What makes us believe that Cusicesh is actually a spren?

[JamHeretic]

Cusicesh is so different from every spren we've ever seen that I'm reluctant to take people's word for it that it's actually a spren. Character misinformation isn't anything new (c.f. Mistborn...). "It's weird, it must be a spren!"

 

That said, if it weren't a spren, what would it be? And if it's actually a spren, what is it a spren of?

[Moogle]

The most common theory, I believe, is that it's an Adonalsium spren. (Apparently Adonalsium left some power on Roshar before it Splintered.) The fact that it only appears at a certain time of day is further evidence of it being a spren (and thus controlled by Cognitive expectations).

 

The feeling of weakness after seeing it is interesting. Anyone have any theories on that?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

The only information we have is from tWoK, where everyone who sees it calls it a Spren. 

 

I'm pretty sure that because it was a focus of the interlude, we'll see more about it in future books, but for my money, I think that Cusicesh is an amalgamation of hundreds (thousands) of previously bonded KR spren and the faces that we see are the faces of the humans to which they were bonded at the time of the Recreance. 

 

The breaking of their KR bonds drove many(most) of the bonded Spren slightly mad/mindless, like a bonded Seon during the Reod. For some reason these gathered in this place and Voltron into a giant water spren in at 7:46 every morning to look towards the Origin...

 

Maybe this is a location where an order, or more than one, broke their bonds and oaths? 

 

EDIT: @Moogle - do we have instances of Shallan/Kaladin being tired after interacting or starting the bonding process with their spren? Could be that Cusicech is trying to bond with those present? 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[JamHeretic]

The most common theory, I believe, is that it's an Adonalsium spren. (Apparently Adonalsium left some power on Roshar before it Splintered.) The fact that it only appears at a certain time of day is further evidence of it being a spren (and thus controlled by Cognitive expectations).

 

The feeling of weakness after seeing it is interesting. Anyone have any theories on that?

 

Why does appearing at only a certain time of day make it a spren?

[JamHeretic]

The only information we have is from tWoK, where everyone who sees it calls it a Spren. 

 

I'm pretty sure that because it was a focus of the interlude, we'll see more about it in future books, but for my money, I think that Cusicesh is an amalgamation of hundreds (thousands) of previously bonded KR spren and the faces that we see are the faces of the humans to which they were bonded at the time of the Recreance. 

 

The breaking of their KR bonds drove many(most) of the bonded Spren slightly mad/mindless, like a bonded Seon during the Reod. For some reason these gathered in this place and Voltron into a giant water spren in at 7:46 every morning to look towards the Origin...

 

Maybe this is a location where an order, or more than one, broke their bonds and oaths? 

 

Ooh. I like that explanation for why it's different. Voltron spren! Upvote!

[Asha'man Logain]

It appearing at exactly the same time everyday seems similar to the way the Ardents could (by measuring and writing down their observations) force a spren to remain exactly as it was. If someone saw it appeared a couple of times, and wrote down that it appeared everyday at exactly the same time, it should  be 'locked' into that behavior.

 

Perhaps with enough people 'knowing' the same thing is as cognitively signifigant and restricting as one person's written observation.

 

Also, this brings to mind our intrepid spren hunter (axies?). Who writes his observations on his skin. Could he be going around freezing a myriad of spren  into only behaviors he observed?

 

~Logain

 

EDIT:   Oh oh oh!  Could it be the reason no one is sure if germs cause disease/rot/death or spren do, is that part of the population thinks they cause thing, an equal part think they're attracted to things, and the rest are not sure which it is. Perhaps the answer (like answers in quantum mechanics they seem loosly based on) is actually both? If enough people believe they cause disease, will they?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Asha'man Logain

[Moogle]

Why does appearing at only a certain time of day make it a spren?

 

Logain covered it, but basically spren are controlled by the beliefs of humans. If everyone thinks a spren is going to show up at a certain time, it likely will. Humans define spren behavior, in other words. We wouldn't expect most natural phenomenon to appear at the same place at the same time every day, but this one does.

 

I like the theory of Cucicesh being an amalgamation of bonding spren.

 

I've thought on it, and I think that because humans 'feed' spren (essentially, they are viruses running on human brains stealing processing power), there being tons of spren around will result in humans nearby becoming tired. Cucicesh is such a 'big' spren that I think he requires more mental energy than most (particularly with all the faces he takes on) and thus anyone around will feel tired if they were focusing on looking at him hard.

 

WoR spoilers:

Shallan is not tired after drawing Pattern, despite there being hundreds of spren, so this is evidence against the theory. She does 'breathe heavily' though.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Moogle

[The Rooster]

I assumed it was a spren because a spren expert called it a spren.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Logain covered it, but basically spren are controlled by the beliefs of humans. If everyone thinks a spren is going to show up at a certain time, it likely will. Humans define spren behavior, in other words. We wouldn't expect most natural phenomenon to appear at the same place at the same time every day, but this one does.

 

I like the theory of Cucicesh being an amalgamation of bonding spren.

 

I've thought on it, and I think that because humans 'feed' spren (essentially, they are viruses running on human brains stealing processing power), there being tons of spren around will result in humans nearby becoming tired. Cucicesh is such a 'big' spren that I think he requires more mental energy than most (particularly with all the faces he takes on) and thus anyone around will feel tired if they were focusing on looking at him hard.

 

WoR spoilers:

Shallan is not tired after drawing Pattern, despite there being hundreds of spren, so this is evidence against the theory. She does 'breathe heavily' though.

 

It's fairly well established that in some way Spren are controlled by the beliefs of humans. With Cusicesh though, it would have been very weird for people to start expecting this one spren to show up at 7:46am every day and look to the origin for 10 minutes... that is one of the reasons that I think there is something very different going on with it. 

[Moogle]

It's fairly well established that in some way Spren are controlled by the beliefs of humans. With Cusicesh though, it would have been very weird for people to start expecting this one spren to show up at 7:46am every day and look to the origin for 10 minutes... that is one of the reasons that I think there is something very different going on with it. 

 

Oh, I agree there, but I think humans, after viewing Cucicesh appear every once in a while (perhaps sporadically like regular spren), forced him to start appearing only at the certain time of day. Thus why I think the evidence is strong that he's a spren - he's controlled by human perceptions.

[GreyPilgrim]

It should be noted that, at least from what we have seen before, one of the defining characteristics of spren is that they are attracted to a certain phenomenon. If Cucicesh is indeed a spren, then what is it attracted to? Could it be attracted to the time 7:46 and the Origin? That seems oddly strange to me. It would be odd if Cucicesh were a 7:46spren.

Could it be that spren's definitions are formed by what humans expect them to occur? Meaning, when a human sees a fire and expects a flamespren to appear, one does because of that expectation. Flamespren are only flamespren because humans expect them to be? That seems a little off to me.

I agree that Cucicesh has many characteristics of spren, but I think he may be something else, albeit something not entirely different.

I sort of agree with the OP's idea that people saw Cucicesh and were like "That must be a spren!" It makes me think of the Malazan series, in which a common idea is that when a culture/species comes in contact with something it has never seen before it automatically labels it a demon, whether it is an actual demon or not. Spren are the most mysterious things Rosharans come into contact with on a regular basis, so they seem similarly likely to label something strange a spren despite what it might actually be.

For example, if a Rosharan saw something like the Midnight Essence (I forget exactly how Dalinar defined them to himself when he saw them), they would likely label it a spren as well, even though we know it is not.

[Moogle]

For example, if a Rosharan saw something like the Midnight Essence (I forget exactly how Dalinar defined them to himself when he saw them), they would likely label it a spren as well, even though we know it is not.

 

What makes you think Midnight Essence isn't a spren?

 

WoR spoilers:

Corrupted spren find their way into stone and become thunderclasts, which seem to be the essence of Stone. It does not seem far fetched to me that corrupted spren similarly find their way into smoke and become Midnight Essence, as the essence of Smoke. This would fit into the general paradigm of there being ten Deaths. A monster for each essence.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Moogle

[GreyPilgrim]

I stand corrected, I hadn't made that connection.

Edited February 14, 2014 by GreyPilgrim

[el_warko]

My own pet theory involving no research and fistfulls of ignornace is that energy draining is funnelled back to kick start the highstorms. 

 

Now that you've stopped laughing. 

 

1) People come out everyday to witness Cusicesh and end up drained. 

2) Highstorms can be predicted (to a degree)

 

What if the error is consistant with the number of visitors Cusicesh has?  i.e. less visitors a high storm is late, more visitors a high storm is early. 

[marianmi]

What makes you think Midnight Essence isn't a spren?

 

WoR spoilers:

Corrupted spren find their way into stone and become thunderclasts, which seem to be the essence of Stone. It does not seem far fetched to me that corrupted spren similarly find their way into smoke and become Midnight Essence, as the essence of Smoke. This would fit into the general paradigm of there being ten Deaths. A monster for each essence.

 

Here I thought I would not read something new until 4th of March.

This is so good it must be true

[Quazar87]

What makes you think Midnight Essence isn't a spren?

 

WoR spoilers:

Corrupted spren find their way into stone and become thunderclasts, which seem to be the essence of Stone. It does not seem far fetched to me that corrupted spren similarly find their way into smoke and become Midnight Essence, as the essence of Smoke. This would fit into the general paradigm of there being ten Deaths. A monster for each essence.

That's a really good theory.

[AerionBFII]

I assumed it was a spren because a spren expert called it a spren.

I have to agree with this haha

[Humph]

Hmmm sound suspiciously like a Mass Hallucination Spren that has taken on a life of its own.

 

Narrative:  Some beggar tripped out on LSD and thought he saw a large something-or-other and for some strange reason thought it would be there at the same time the next day ... and so it was.  He convince a few others that it was there, and so since they expected to be able to see it, they in fact could ... and it snowballed from there.  So Cusicesh exists only by feeding off of the expectations of those there, taking a little something from each and every one present to feed his own continued existence?

 

I'm not satisfied with such a narrative but have a suspicious feeling that there might be a great deal of truth in it.  I'm just not sure where the truth ends and the admixture of error begins.

[Guest Shash]

I assume it's a spren because Axies accepts it as a spren, and he is likely one of the leading authorities on spren in all of Roshar. I dunno. That answer satisfied me, at least.

[JamHeretic]

I assume it's a spren because Axies accepts it as a spren, and he is likely one of the leading authorities on spren in all of Roshar. I dunno. That answer satisfied me, at least.

Problem is, Brandon's not afraid of giving the characters misinformation.  Generations of Allomancers thought there were only ten metals, too. I'm not willing to accept Axies' word on it with no substantiation.

[skaa]

Problem is, Brandon's not afraid of giving the characters misinformation.  Generations of Allomancers thought there were only ten metals, too. I'm not willing to accept Axies' word on it with no substantiation.

 

Sorry for being off-topic, but here's an interesting thought: there are just ten base metals in the Metallic Arts: Iron, Tin, Zinc, Copper, Aluminum, Chromium, Gold, Cadmium, Atium, and Lerasium. Everything else is just an alloy of those metals. If we were to count all the metals and alloys that a Mistborn can use, then we'll have to include Lerasium and Atium alloys as well, and that will be far more than just the sixteen in the current "official" list. So basically, the original belief does have an element of truth in it; it's just the details that were wrong.

 

Back on topic: The first paragraph in the Axies chapter that describes Cusicesh as a spren is not part of a dialogue, nor is it part of Axies' inner monologue. It was the narrator that used the spren description, so unless the narrator is unreliable, then I think that should settle it: Cusicesh is a spren.

 

There are many different categories of spren. You can categorize them by sentience, by Shard affinity (Honor, Cultivation, both, or Odium), by Essence, by Realm, etc. This leads to a lot of variety, so we shouldn't be surprised that there are one or two really odd kinds of spren.

Edited February 21, 2014 by skaa

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I think it is spren (in the plural) personally, see my comments on page 1 for my theory on it, but I would caution that just because the word spren appears in the narrated text, doesn't necessarily mean that the narrator is infallible either. 

 

The really odd things about Cusicech aren't that it is or isn't a spren in my opinion, its everything else!

 

Appearing at 7:46 am, facing the origin, cycling through innumerable human faces, draining those watching...

 

It actually reminds me a little bit more of the visions that Dalinar goes through than a spren, at least in its regularity, sort of a set piece clue. 

[Numuhukumakiakiaialunamor]

What if the faces on Cusicech are the faces of the people dying that speak the death chants (or whatever they're called)???

[Guest Shash]

What if the faces on Cusicech are the faces of the people dying that speak the death chants (or whatever they're called)???

 

Upvoted you before I read a word of your post.  Purely for your name and profile picture.  Hilarious!

[AerionBFII]

Didn't the Spren expert say it was a Spren?