Timeline question

[Stark]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been looking for some timeline details.  I've found some broad strokes timeline info on the Coppermind here: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Cosmere#Chronological_Order

 

I've also read through the Cosmere timeline topic thread on the forums: 

But I'm looking for a nitty-gritty little detail, and I'm not seeing anything really conclusive, so I'm hoping to tap into the collective memory of the 17th Sharders, and hopefully see if any one can confirm or shoot down my thought.

 

My question is: Did the Reod and the Recreance happen more or less around the same time?

 

We know Elantris takes place before Way of Kings, by a couple of hundred years.  We know the Reod happened 10 years before Elantris, and was likely unrelated to the shattering of Skaai or Aona, as their splinters, the Seons and the Skaze, were already present.  We also know that the Day of Recreance happened before the events of the Way of kings, by at least a few hundred years, giving society enough time to bounce back from that event and the sudden influx of shards into the hands of the general population.

 

So here is where I'm weak, as I don't have the exact timelines on hand for the Recreance, or the timeline difference between Elantris and The Stormlight Archive, but what if they happened around the same time?  Is that conceivable? Has anyone else had thoughts along a similar vein?

 

And to take it a step further - what if one caused the other?  What if the death of so many Spren in the physical realm echoed across the Cognitive realm and left its mark on other worlds?  A kind of "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened." only felt by the entire planet of Sel (which has geographically diverse investiture), and maybe others.

 

Or is it possible that a different event somewhere else echoed accross one the realms and caused effects across the Physical realm - rending the earth in Sel and causing the Radiants to relinquish their Oaths on Roshar?

 

Am I grasping at straws?  I know I haven't formulated my thoughts very well.

[Calderis]

Without a hard time line this is difficult to answer. 

The only Canon work we've seen that predates Elantris is White Sand. So let's do some rough guesses here.

Elantris is supposed to take place "hundreds, but not thousands" of years prior to Mistborn. And Era 1 is roughly 300 years prior to SA. Warbreaker if I remember correctly is also a couple hundred years prior to Era 1, and elantris is supposed to be prior to it as well. So let's put Warbreaker at 300 before era 1 and elantris at roughly 300 years before that. 

So Elantris that would put Elantris at about 900 years before SA. 

The Heralds walked away from the Oathpact 4950 years before SA began (4500 Rosharan years at 1.1 times standard year length). The Recreance predates the hierocracy which is within the past couple hundred years of Roshar's time line. 

That leaves a window between the Heralds betrayal and the hierocracy of 4000 to 4300 Rosharan years. I'd guess it's probably around 1000 years prior to SA but that's honestly just a guess. 

So everything I can find, most of which comes from The One Who Connects (who I really wish mobile would let me tag) wonderful timeline work in multiple threads, says that it's possible that they happened in a similar timeframe. 

That said... I don't think it's possible to work the way you want it to here. The Spren are made of Investiture tied to the Shards on Roshar. Their deaths should have a greater effect on events in Roshar than anywhere else. 

Yes the Cognitive Realm spans the Cosmere, but the borders between worlds actually change the way the Cognitive presents itself. Worldhopping is possible because the area between world that is devoid of thought is compressed in size, but (as secret history shows us) there's still a gap there. I'd imagine that that gap between the world's creates a kind of before between worlds directly influencing each other. Additionally, Sels Cognitive Realm is filled with the Dor, for anything Cognitive to have an effect it would have to work its way through two Shards worth of raw investiture to do it. 

That's all my opinion, and you could very well be right, and I'm just over thinking it. The time line as best we know, doesn't seem to rule it out. 

[lyht]

While I agree that the Reod did not happen at the time of the shattering of Skaai or Aona, I think it is related. My current theory is that the earthquake was caused by the excessive investiture in the cognitive realm, pushing against the physical for a time.

But... my current theory about the Recreance is that was it was directly related to the shattering of Honor. I believe after Honor died, there was a specific impact on the Knights, that caused them to specific choose to give up the bond. I am thinking they knew that without Honor the safeguards of their bond were not in place, and they could do more harm than good.

Perhaps there still could have been an impact toward Sel, bumping up against the investiture, which bumped up against the already strained physical, and causing the earthquake. Interesting to think about.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

timeline difference between Elantris and The Stormlight Archive

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Warbreaker if I remember correctly is also a couple hundred years prior to Era 1, and elantris is supposed to be prior to it as well. So let's put Warbreaker at 300 before era 1 and elantris at roughly 300 years before that. 

Ehkm...

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, lyht said:

But... my current theory about the Recreance is that was it was directly related to the shattering of Honor. I believe after Honor died, there was a specific impact on the Knights, that caused them to specific choose to give up the bond. I am thinking they knew that without Honor the safeguards of their bond were not in place, and they could do more harm than good.

Honor was alive for the Recreance. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1160#15

Quote

QUESTION

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

Dalinar's vision of that day is based on Tanavast's memory of the event. 

Edit: @Oversleep wait wait wait... Warbreaker is after HoA? I remember reading that time line of yours (and totally forgot about it or I would have used it for my response) and just completely glossed over that fact. I've always thought Warbreaker was before... Dang. I need to reorganize my brain. I trust you, and I have to try to figure out why I thought the way I did. Damnation. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Oversleep]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: @Oversleep wait wait wait... Warbreaker is after HoA? I remember reading that time line of yours (and totally forgot about it or I would have used it for my response) and just completely glossed over that fact. I've always thought Warbreaker was before... Dang. I need to reorganize my brain. I trust you, and I have to try to figure out why I thought the way I did. Damnation. 

Don't trust me when I have cited WoBs. You only need to trust me when I haven't

[Tsidqiyah]

There was/is speculation that Endowment started returning people about the same time Harmony came into Being. Possibly as a response to a double shard.

[Stark]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Without a hard time line this is difficult to answer. 

Completely agreed.  I hope eventually we'll get a proper timeline - maybe in the next short story compendium (Arcanum Rebound?).  It just seemed plausible to me that with the timelines, blurry though they may be, that the Reod and Recreance may have occurred close to the same time.  I agree that my stray thought that an event in the Physical realm on Roshar involving entities of the Cognitive Realm echoing accross the Cognitive to affect the physical on another planet is a stretch.  It even seems ridiculous when I phrase it like that.

 

But looking at @Oversleep's timeline, we have the Recreance somewhere between 500-1500 years before Way of Kings, we have Elantris in the same time period, and we have Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell in the same period, and all of them have world changing events in the past preceding the 'current' events.  The Recreance, the Reod, the appearance of the shades.  On Nalthis, we have Returns begining an unspecified amount of time before 300 years before Warbreaker (Manywar was 300 years before Warbreaker, right?)  On Scadrail, we have the Lord Ruler shifting the planet's orbit 1000 years before Era 1.

 

So there are a lot of big events in the past of each world where something changed that led to a dramatic change on the planet.  And each of them had their in world reason for happening, at least according to the scholars of that world (Recreance and Lord Ruler's Ascension are best example).  The least dramatic of these was the Recreance.  While I agree, it is highly unlikely that they all happened at the same time, or even in the same decade, I am curious if these events happened in the same century, especially when you start playing with the math for orbital periods on the non-Earth analog planets.

 

But if they happened within the same 100 year span, it would strain credulity that they were all coincidentally happening around the same time.  Nothing is coincidence in the Cosmere.  So if they happened close to each other, and it is not coincidental,could something have happened in the Cosmere as a while that would have set off ripples through either the Cognitive or Spiritual realms to have an effect on the Physical?

 

But as Calderis pointed out, all hypothetical conjecture without a hard time line.

[Calderis]

Due to the inherent nature of other worlds in the time line, should we move this thread to Cosmere Theories? 

[Stark]

Probably yes.  Had not planned on that, and I'm not sure how to move it.  But Cosmere Theories seems a better home for this thread in retrospect.

 

Edit: Thanks to the mods for the fast move, and thanks @Calderis for suggesting it in the first place

Edited August 24, 2017 by Stark

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Stark said:

Probably yes.  Had not planned on that, and I'm not sure how to move it.  But Cosmere Theories seems a better home for this thread in retrospect.

I just flagged the thread and asked to be moved. We can't do it, have to get a mod. 

Edit: @Stark and it's moved! Thank you mods for your speedy response! 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Calderis

[lyht]

On 8/24/2017 at 9:00 AM, Calderis said:

Honor was alive for the Recreance

Rats. That theory is out. 

[FiveLate]

I have a timeline in a word document...let me give it a review to make sure I didn't do anything stupid in it and I will post it tomorrow.

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/24/2017 at 8:26 AM, Stark said:

My question is: Did the Reod and the Recreance happen more or less around the same time?

I vote no, Recreance should be at least... 700 years earlier. As @Calderis mentioned: Have several disparate reconstructions that I've done, and I'll mesh them together at the end

---

Why I think the Recreance happened 2,200-2,500 Rosharan yrs ago:

On 9/15/2016 at 10:43 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Best we've got are these WoB's: Here and here

Quote

zas678

How long ago was the Recreance from modern day or from the Heirocracy?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heirocracy is in recent history, the Recreance is in ancient history.

Quote

Argent

In terms of timeline-- So The Way of Kings and the Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-4 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

So you-- Let’s see-- So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we’re at 11--

Argent

So we are at 5500 years after--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late.

Argent

So… In the thousands--  But it’s not like three hundred years ago.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s not like three hundred years ago, but it’s also not like 4000 years ago.

Argent

Okay, so from the middle--

Brandon Sanderson

The Hierocracy happened after (the Recreance) and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It’s longer than that even, it’s like five or six hundred years ago I think.

Recreance is minimum 700+ years ago, considered "ancient history" by Brandon, but also "more recent than late." Personally, that makes it sound like ... 2,000-2,500ish? Opinions, comments, concerns?

Odium's travels and when Elantris took place:

On 2/10/2017 at 3:02 PM, The One Who Connects said:

We know a rough timeline of some events.

He went after Ambition first, but couldn't find (him?)
He then took out Devotion and Dominion on Sel (they were the first, so this is the best point to try mapping out timelines)
After D&D, he took out Ambition at some unspecified time.
Odium visits Roshar, gets trapped there for a long while and does Desolations
Around 2 Millennia(by my best estimates) pass, and Honor is killed around the same time as the Recreance occurs.
Remaining 2200-2500 years to the present date in Stormlight Archives.

The problem with reverse engineering it is that we only have a statement by Brandon that is subject to change about how long ago the Shattering was.

---

Mistborn Era 1 takes place around 300 years before Stormlight(because Alloy happens around that time)
Elantris takes place "far earlier. It's quite... It's not thousands" compared to Hero of Ages. I'll use 1,400 years because it'll be convenient in a minute.
That puts Elantris a few centuries before Rashek's Ascension.

My more complete timeline, separated by the different "years"

On 6/3/2017 at 9:07 PM, The One Who Connects said:

The Reod was only 10 years prior to the book taking place. Odium was long gone when that happened. As for the cause, we've no solid idea yet. You can search around and find all manner of ideas and theories.

---

If you want a much more detailed history of Sel and surrounding events...

•                   0 AS (After Shattering):                      The Shattering Happens
•               Date Completely Unknown:                D&D go to Sel at some unspecified time after the Shattering
•               Date Completely Unknown:                Odium visited Sel and killed D&D, creating the Dor
•        Roughly 2,800 AS, Roughly 6000 BE:        Odium gets trapped on Roshar
•               6,000 AS, Roughly 3,000 BE:               Stormlight Prelude, Final Desolation
•         Unknown AS, 10 BE(Before Elantris):        The Reod
•           Unknown AS, 0 AE(After Elantris):            Elantris(Book) happens
• B/w 1,100 and 1,400 AE, 0 AH(After Harmony):  Ascension of Harmony
•               Roughly 11,000 AS, 300 AH:                Stormlight Archive(Books) happen

We have WoBs talking about the time-gap between different series(that have a different year length), so I am forced to assume that Brandon uses the Cosmere Standard year(1 Earth/Yolen year, also the After Shattering Number).

• The current time is ~11,000 AS, and 300 AH. (Should also be between 1,400 and 1,700 AE)
  The Rosharan year is 1.1 Earth Years, so if the Recreance took place 2,200-2,500 Rosharan years ago, that translates to 2,420-2,750 AS years ago.
  If we assume that the given time-gaps between Elantris, HoA, and SA are in Cosmere Standard years, then Elantris takes place 1,400-1,700 AS years ago.
• The Recreance occurred b/w 8,250 and 8,580 AS. Elantris occurred b/w 9,300-9,600 AS, with the Reod occurring exactly 10 years later

Following this logic, the Recreance roughly occurred between 1030 and 1060 years before the Reod.   Lasting 1,024 years, The Final Empire could have both risen and fell within that time-gap.   The Recreance and the Reod did not occur even remotely close to the same time.

Edited September 2, 2017 by The One Who Connects