Santhids and Greatshells

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

I've wondered about that Santhid that Shallan Encounters.  We've seen that Brandon hasn't told us everything about Greatshells and their gemhearts, and left the scene with the cremlings vague.  There's a lot to find out about the fauna of Roshar.

1 - Why did the santhid choose to save Shallan?

2 - What is the relationship between santhids and greatshells?

3 - Are santhids actually a small kind of greatshell?

4 - Would santhids have the same kind of spren-bonds as greatshells?  People wouldn't know, because they wouldn't have found any gemhearts because it's considered unlucky to hunt them.  (Mraize, a seemingly high-ranking member of the Ghostbloods has a santhid scull in his collection.  Maybe he would know?)

5 - How does the anatomy of a santhid work, because their tentacles I don’t think would work like a jellyfish’s.  Perhaps it would move like a portuguese man o'war, but faster, and it would be able to steer with its fins.

6 - How intelligent are the greatshells?  That santhid seemed very intelligent.

7 - How sentient are the spren bonded to greatshells?

8 - What do the spren get out the deal of binding with them, and how big are those spren, compared to the kind that lessens the effect of gravity?

9 - How do greatshells have gemhearts in the first place?  They’d be pretty old, each one, if an actual gem that big forms inside of them, and if that’s how it works, what do they eat that gives them the minerals needed to form them?

Edited July 31, 2017 by Runeweaver

[Nathrangking he/him]

Is it possible that the answer to the 1st question is related to the fact that she has pattern? Is it possible that the Santhid recognized or sensed pattern and based off of that fact ultimately saved her. If there is a connection between spren and greatshells then there may be a starting point to unravel the mysteries of the greatshells.

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

Thanks @Nathrangking, it's a good guess.  I didn't think of that.  We don't know how related greatshells and santhids are, or if they are a type of greatshell.  They are smaller than the others we know of, such as Chasmfiends and Tai-na, but those do bond with spren, in away, with the gemhearts, so they must be aware of the spren around them.

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

And if you don't know, there is a very direct connection between spren and greatshells.  Spren are inside the gemhearts, like how spren can be trapped within certain cuts of gemstones.  The kinds of spren in gemhearts are called greatshell spren.  You can look that up on the coppermind.  When the greatshell dies, that spren (plus the gravity spren floating around) leaves.

That reminds me, greatshells and santhids both have gravity spren floating around them, but so do skyeels.  A possible connection, of sorts, but it could just be that Brandon needed the gravity spren to fit the logic hole: those things would be to big to crawl/float/fly.

But then, it's good to note that Brandon almost always has more than one reason for things (like his interludes).

[Calderis he/him]

@Runeweaver I have to put my son to bed so I don't have time to dig up any sources, but the Tai-Na are extreme cases, and chasmfiends are still on the large end. The Lanceryn (adult form of Larkin) were Aimian greatshells smaller than chasmfiends. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Santhids are greatshells at all. 

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

@Calderis Ooh, yes.  The coppermind didn't have any information of the Lanceryn's size, or that they were adult forms of Larkin.  The Yu-nerigs also prove that greatshells can be marine creatures.  Thanks!

[Calderis he/him]

@Runeweaver doesn't answer anything about them being greatshell or not, but I did just come across this and thought you'd appreciate it. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1148#4

Quote

KOGI

Anything you can tell us about santhids?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They’re one of a few Rosharan animals with a degree of sentience. It’s easier on Roshar for this to happen.

KAYLA

Because of Cultivation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

FOOTNOTE

Also, Santhids aren’t based on anything in particular on Earth (sad marine biologist face)

 

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

So, we have some clues to question 6.  They're either smarter than greatshells, or they're the "one of a few Rosharan animals with a degree of sentience" which could mean greatshells.  The tai-na that saved Rysn's live somehow seems to be sentient, now that I remember that.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

In the sentience case, they are similar to the Ryshadium, at least a little bit.

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

But Ryshadium are horses ... there's a lot to discover about those, too.

[Calderis he/him]

28 minutes ago, Runeweaver said:

But Ryshadium are horses ... there's a lot to discover about those, too.

Ryshadium are one of the creatures with an increased level of sentience though, like Santhids. 

Greatshells in general may have this though. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

It will prove fascinating to discover just how intelligent greatshells and Ryshadium are which will create a stark and interesting contrast to other worlds of the cosmere. It might also inform about the nature of cultivation.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 hours ago, Runeweaver said:

The coppermind didn't have any information of the Lanceryn's size, or that they were adult forms of Larkin.

That's partly because the Coppermind is falling into neglect from too many signings happening for us to have time to update the pages.

That and hardly anybody knows how to get to the Larkin entry without a bookmark.

Quote

17

Botanica

Larkin and lanceryn
1. In WoK, Jasnah's mention of this lanceryn befuddled me a lot. We know that it is a kind of greatshell with gemhearts native to Aimia, but except this, we know nothing. The translator interpreted it as "lance-beast". I suspect he got it inspired because "lanceryn" is similar to "lance", which is a kind of weapon. I'd like to know whether this name origins from "lance" or not. If not, could you simply describe how this creature actually looks like, so I can come up with a new term? (I'm not sure if the former translator has ever contacted you.)
2. So larkins are more like flying insects? I imagine they are a mixture of crab (or any crustacean), wasp and little dragon. Is that okay? (Do larkins really have reddish/brown crusts?)

Peter

The lanceryn and larkin are two names for the same creature. When it says lanceryn, it’s definitely referring only to the enormous greatshell version that is believed to be extinct. The name is not related to “lance”…I think. The small larkin can be considered the cremling/larva version of the lanceryn.

Source: http://coppermind.huijiwiki.com/wiki/问答与访谈/WoP_2015#.E9.82.AE.E4.BB.B63

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The small larkin can be considered the cremling/larva version of the lanceryn

This might already be common knowledge, but is this a hint that cremlings are "larva" of some form of greatshell?

PS: Is there a theory about Greatshells being the Parshmen equivalent of Voidbringers anywhere? Dormant monsters hiding in plain sight style?

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

Ooh, okay.  Thanks for posting on this, @The One Who Connects!  I'll check out your theories in your signature-thing-that-appears-under-people's-posts.  How do you get those, anyway?  Is it something just for high-ranking members?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

PS: Is there a theory about Greatshells being the Parshmen equivalent of Voidbringers anywhere? Dormant monsters hiding in plain sight style?

There was a topic centuries ago about Chasmfiends = Thunderclasts, but that got debunked.

Quote

Q: Are thunderclasts just voidspren animating dead greatshells that have bee turned to stone by crem, kind of like Kalad's army? And could light eyes who have been turned to stone by soul casters be reanimated, either by Vasher or by voidspren?
 
A: Thunderclasts are animating stone itself. Reanimating someone turned to stone would be more easy than simply animating the stone, but animating stone is tough, so that's not saying much.

Just now, Runeweaver said:

signature-thing-that-appears-under-people's-posts

It's in the account settings somewhere, you can add a signature. Anybody can do it, new people usually don't have a reason to is all.

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

Hmm, can't find that.

Edit: Ooh, Account Settings, not Edit profile.  Thank you.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Runeweaver

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There was a topic centuries ago about Chasmfiends = Thunderclasts, but that got debunked.

Quote

Q: Are thunderclasts just voidspren animating dead greatshells that have bee turned to stone by crem, kind of like Kalad's army? And could light eyes who have been turned to stone by soul casters be reanimated, either by Vasher or by voidspren?
 
A: Thunderclasts are animating stone itself. Reanimating someone turned to stone would be more easy than simply animating the stone, but animating stone is tough, so that's not saying much.

You know, that seems almost like a wiggle out. I'm not saying that dead greatshells become Thunderclasts. I'm saying that it might be possible that if certain specific spren bonded to the greatshells, they might become monstrous destroyers who are part of the Voidbringers/Desolations. Kinda how if certain spren bond with the Parshendi, then they atain stormform, which I consider to be part of the Voidbringers/Desolations. Brandon only talks about Thunderclast, and doesn't actually say that they are made of stone, he says that Thunderclast animate stone. Makes me think that that is some sort of ability they have, similar to how you can soul-cast stuff into or out of stone. Note how it says "are animating" not "are animated".

 

6 minutes ago, Runeweaver said:

Hmm, can't find that.

At the top right corner, where you see your name, click on that. "Account Settings" should be an option. Then you should see a section for your signature on the bottom Left.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lord Maelstrom

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Lord Maelstrom said:

I'm not saying that dead greatshells become Thunderclasts. I'm saying that it might be possible that if certain specific spren bonded to the greatshells, they might become monstrous destroyers who are part of the Voidbringers/Desolations

I see your point. I was merely posting from memory. It was the only semi-related discussion i remembered, and that WoB shut it down. I'll still disagree with you, as I think Chasmfiends would have a hard time existing with a less symbiotic spren to bond with. Magic gravity and all that. Chulls or some of the smaller Greatshells..., that might be feasible

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

I see your point. I was merely posting from memory. It was the only semi-related discussion i remembered, and that WoB shut it down. I'll still disagree with you, as I think Chasmfiends would have a hard time existing with a less symbiotic spren to bond with. Magic gravity and all that. Chulls or some of the smaller Greatshells..., that might be feasible

Notice how I never actually say chasmfiends. I just mention greatshell. And I wouldn't be surprised if there is a type of desolationspren that would have characteristics that would replace the gravity effects that chasmfiend require. Actually, if Thunderclasts do animate stone, then they'd need stormlight to do it, which would explain why Chasmfiend need those huge gemstone hearts. Though that is still extremely unlikely.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Notice how I never actually say chasmfiends. I just mention greatshell.

Yea sorry about that. Chasmfiends are the first thing to really jump into our heads if you say "Greatshell" and "monsters in plain sight." I only half-disagree then, regarding Chasmfiends specifically You make a valid point about a Desolation Spren granting the same effect, but then we get into the argument of how/why the Chasmfiend would switch out the Spren it's bonded with. Listeners have different forms, but I don't think Chasmfiends have that same functionality, or at the very least, don't use it very often.

The Everstorm cannot force a Parshendi to bond a Voidspren if they already have a Spren bond. The same should hold true for Greatshells and the KR.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Yea sorry about that. Chasmfiends are the first thing to really jump into our heads if you say "Greatshell" and "monsters in plain sight." I only half-disagree then, regarding Chasmfiends specifically You make a valid point about a Desolation Spren granting the same effect, but then we get into the argument of how/why the Chasmfiend would switch out the Spren it's bonded with. Listeners have different forms, but I don't think Chasmfiends have that same functionality, or at the very least, don't use it very often.

The Everstorm cannot force a Parshendi to bond a Voidspren if they already have a Spren bond. The same should hold true for Greatshells and the KR.

I agree. Most of this was just an idea I wanted to bounce around. Though we also don't know much about how greatshells  grow or much about their larva/cremilng state (the cremling state reference is drawn from the WoB above). It could be that part of the change from larva to greatshell is bonding a spren, and thus now that the everstorm is there, you might start having greatshell who are bonded with desolationspren instead of their usual spren. Or it could be that greatshells aren't their final form. Their true adult form might be a desolation form, with their spren being replaced.

Just to get wackier: We know that Chasmfied will come onto the plateaus and cocoon. i can't remember if normally they just stay like that, or eventually break out again and stay as chasmfiend. But it could be possible that while they are cocooned, they no longer have a spren bonded. They would need the cocoon to make sure that they don't get crushed under their own weight. Thus, now that the everstorm is here, when they enter into their cocoon state, they could bond with a desolationspren instead of their usual spren and come out as Voidbringer/Desolation creatures.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Or it could be that greatshells aren't their final form. Their true adult form might be a desolation form, with their spren being replaced.

Just to get wackier: We know that Chasmfied will come onto the plateaus and cocoon. i can't remember if normally they just stay like that, or eventually break out again and stay as chasmfiend.

Here.

Quote

Question

Are the Chasmfiends that we have seen the last stage of their life-cycle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you have seen the last stage of their lifestyle. You’ve seen the second and third stages mostly.

Question

Are you counting the cocoons?

Brandon Sanderson

Cocoons are a stage, yes.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

When it comes to chasmfiends, I believe that there is some connection with Voidbringers/Odiun. After all, Jasnah believed that they were Voidbringers in WoK.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

50 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

When it comes to chasmfiends, I believe that there is some connection with Voidbringers/Odiun. After all, Jasnah believed that they were Voidbringers in WoK.

I also believe that artwork depicting a "voidbringer" had been debunked as well, with Brandon stating that the artist drew the most terrifying thing they could think of.

Actually, that might've been an in-world speculation by Adolin/Dalinar...