Watchcry he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) Hey all. Just had a thought this morning about Shadesmar. It appears that Shadesmar is so alien that it is as much or more dangerous than the physical realm. My questions are: What makes a Willshaper or Elsecaller more able/powerful enough to take on that realm more so than other orders (or even shard worlds). How does the Elsecaller ability of transformation benefit them as the Masters of Shadesmar once they use transportation to get there? Or is it just their wits and intellect that enables them to master cognitive entities there? I understand much won't be revealed in the next book with Jasnah having a lesser role again but I just wanted your thoughts. Thanks in advance. Edited July 28, 2017 by Watchcry Misspelled word 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) I think the main reason it is so much more dangerous is purely because of it's alien nature. If you were suddenly to enter into a land in which you recognized none of the life, and even the physical properties of light function differently, it would most likely inspire fear, and who knows what fearspren look like in the Cognitive. The Physical Realm is dangerous too. People just spend their entire lives learning to navigate it. As far as the Orders, there are three that can use the Cognitive Realm easily, you forgot Lightweavers. The in world book "Words of Radiance" talks about both Willshapers and Lightweavers having some interaction, but the Elsecallers being the true masters of that Realm. This implies that it's all in the surges. Lightweavers can enter, and have transformations to manipulate their surroundings and defend themselves, while Willshapers have Transportation for the ability to flee danger. Elsecallers have both and so have the most abilities to navigate and defend themselves, and therefore the strongest ability to learn the rules of the Realm. Familiarity and understanding is the key I think. Edited July 28, 2017 by Calderis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I believe Hoid can access shadesmar too? So worlhoppers can do it too, other than the three surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, StormblessDave said: I believe Hoid can access shadesmar too? So worlhoppers can do it too, other than the three surges. Yeah, what makes those three Radiant orders special is that they're able to access/manipulate the Cognitive Realm with their powers so they have more options once they're there and they have a better opportunity to figure out how the place works, Elsecallers most of all. But the realm can be accessed in other ways as well; The easiest is to use a Perpendicularity, where the huge concentration of Investiture makes it easy to transition between Physical and Cognitive. There's also other magic systems that require the user to have a good understanding of realmatics, like Forgery, the effectiveness of which has a lot to do with Cognitive perception. Edited July 28, 2017 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Weltall said: Yeah, what makes those three Radiant orders special is that they're able to access/manipulate the Cognitive Realm with their powers so they have more options once they're there and they have a better opportunity to figure out how the place works, Elsecallers most of all. But the realm can be accessed in other ways as well; The easiest is to use a Perpendicularity, where the huge concentration of Investiture makes it easy to transition between Physical and Cognitive. Yeah that explains why Hoid believed Jasnah had learned stuff he wouldn't be able to in shadesmar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctorstormblessed he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I wouldn't be surprised if the interaction between the two elsecaller abilities created a third new ability that granted them some sort of aid to their control of the realm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Doctorstormblessed said: I wouldn't be surprised if the interaction between the two elsecaller abilities created a third new ability that granted them some sort of aid to their control of the realm I feel the transportation surge itself is the factor that gives superior control in shadesmar, then ofcourse practice makes perfect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galendo Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Doctorstormblessed said: I wouldn't be surprised if the interaction between the two elsecaller abilities created a third new ability that granted them some sort of aid to their control of the realm I'm pretty sure that the Elsecaller perk is their great sense of direction. It's mentioned several times that Jasnah always seems to know where she is, almost supernaturally so. How useful that is in the Cognitive realm, we haven't seen. Maybe a little, maybe a whole lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, galendo said: I'm pretty sure that the Elsecaller perk is their great sense of direction. It's mentioned several times that Jasnah always seems to know where she is, almost supernaturally so. How useful that is in the Cognitive realm, we haven't seen. Maybe a little, maybe a whole lot. Yeah the part where Shallan slipped into Shadesmar and Jasnah located her effortlessly does indicate an enhanced sense of direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, StormblessDave said: Yeah the part where Shallan slipped into Shadesmar and Jasnah located her effortlessly does indicate an enhanced sense of direction. Perhaps, although Shallan and Jasnah were in the same room with each other during their respective jaunts into Shadesmar. Which would make the problem easier, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Landis963 said: Perhaps, although Shallan and Jasnah were in the same room with each other during their respective jaunts into Shadesmar. Which would make the problem easier, at least. that's true but its pretty clear its not easy to transport into shadesmar especially when your in a hurry, you can end up making mistakes, like Jasnah choosing a weird location at WOR epilogue because she was in a hurry, but yeah the same room would have made it easier, true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, StormblessDave said: that's true but its pretty clear its not easy to transport into shadesmar especially when your in a hurry, you can end up making mistakes, like Jasnah choosing a weird location at WOR epilogue because she was in a hurry, but yeah the same room would have made it easier, true. Jasnah's weird location there is probably partly due to her need to escape pursuers in the Cognitive Realm. She ran away from whatever spren was menacing her at the time, Elsecalled out of the Cognitive Realm, and emerged in whatever random spot she escaped to. Where Hoid just so happened to be, explaining her alarm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 About that, do we know how Hoid knew the random location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, StormblessDave said: that's true but its pretty clear its not easy to transport into shadesmar especially when your in a hurry, you can end up making mistakes, like Jasnah choosing a weird location at WOR epilogue because she was in a hurry, but yeah the same room would have made it easier, true. She didn’t exit where she did because she was in a hurry. It was because she had to. Every other instance that we saw them in the Cognitive Realm, it was kind of like Astral projection. They may have been moving around there, but their bodies were still in the physical realm. After the ship. Jasnah was there physically. In order to leave she needed to reach Honor's perpendicularity, because she didn't have any Stormlight for her surges. Spoilered for length. Spoiler http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#42 QUESTION Is it possible that someone could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. QUESTION ...Can we know how? BRANDON SANDERSON Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have? QUESTION Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. So you’ve adopted the term “Shardpool.” That was never really my term, but I’ve started using it. What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You’ve seen another one-- QUESTION Yeah, yeah I know these. BRANDON SANDERSON You know which one I’m referencing? QUESTION Yes. BRANDON SANDERSON That you didn’t see a Pool from? QUESTION Oh wait… [Laughter] BRANDON SANDERSON Okay, he knows, so… We’ll move on. QUESTION Why??!! [general protest, laughter] BRANDON SANDERSON Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. ARGENT There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves. QUESTION Woah...so...Highstorm? BRANDON SANDERSON [hems and haws] QUESTION So, I don’t know if this is a RAFO sort of question, but you call them Perpendicularities, will we see this sort of thing created? BRANDON SANDERSON Yeah, Perpendicularities can be created. You’d need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity and slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. QUESTION So it’s just a question of skill, not a question of-- BRANDON SANDERSON Yeah. It’s hard to pull off...but some of the powers are built to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Landis963 said: Jasnah's weird location there is probably partly due to her need to escape pursuers in the Cognitive Realm. She ran away from whatever spren was menacing her at the time, Elsecalled out of the Cognitive Realm, and emerged in whatever random spot she escaped to. Where Hoid just so happened to be, explaining her alarm. Yeah and the fact that her apprentice just went to shadesmar would have induced shock, disbelief and alarm, leading to a chance of panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 @Calderis thanks for the interview that clears things up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, StormblessDave said: Yeah and the fact that her apprentice just went to shadesmar would have induced shock, disbelief and alarm, leading to a chance of panic. Jasnah doesn't seem the type to panic, but I don't think further nitpicking is productive here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Landis963 said: Jasnah doesn't seem the type to panic, but I don't think further nitpicking is productive here. lol true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 32 minutes ago, Calderis said: She didn’t exit where she did because she was in a hurry. It was because she had to. Every other instance that we saw them in the Cognitive Realm, it was kind of like Astral projection. They may have been moving around there, but their bodies were still in the physical realm. After the ship. Jasnah was there physically. In order to leave she needed to reach Honor's perpendicularity, because she didn't have any Stormlight for her surges. Spoilered for length. Reveal hidden contents http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#42 QUESTION Is it possible that someone could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. QUESTION ...Can we know how? BRANDON SANDERSON Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have? QUESTION Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. So you’ve adopted the term “Shardpool.” That was never really my term, but I’ve started using it. What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You’ve seen another one-- QUESTION Yeah, yeah I know these. BRANDON SANDERSON You know which one I’m referencing? QUESTION Yes. BRANDON SANDERSON That you didn’t see a Pool from? QUESTION Oh wait… [Laughter] BRANDON SANDERSON Okay, he knows, so… We’ll move on. QUESTION Why??!! [general protest, laughter] BRANDON SANDERSON Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance. ARGENT There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, but Honor’s Perpendicularity moves. QUESTION Woah...so...Highstorm? BRANDON SANDERSON [hems and haws] QUESTION So, I don’t know if this is a RAFO sort of question, but you call them Perpendicularities, will we see this sort of thing created? BRANDON SANDERSON Yeah, Perpendicularities can be created. You’d need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity and slips herself into the Cognitive Realm. QUESTION So it’s just a question of skill, not a question of-- BRANDON SANDERSON Yeah. It’s hard to pull off...but some of the powers are built to do it. If it's astral projection then they can't physically teleport from one location to another unless they enter completely and find a perpendicularity? That sounds kind of lame as far as supporting a battle on Roshar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Watchcry said: If it's astral projection then they can't physically teleport from one location to another unless they enter completely and find a perpendicularity? That sounds kind of lame as far as supporting a battle on Roshar. We know Elsecalling can go point-to-point within a given Realm (see also: the Oathgates). That's probably where most of its utility comes from. Jumping from the Physical to the Cognitive Realms, on the other hand, is a touch more involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, Watchcry said: If it's astral projection then they can't physically teleport from one location to another unless they enter completely and find a perpendicularity? That sounds kind of lame as far as supporting a battle on Roshar. The surge of Transportation itself requires Stormlight to either telport directly, like the Oathgates, or create a perpendicularity between the physical and Cognitive Realm. The problem Jasnah had was that she used up her Stormlight between entering the Cognitive Realm, and healing a stab wound through the heart. If she had enough Stormlight to use the surge, she wouldn't need a perpendicularity, she'd have just made one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crucible of Shards he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, Landis963 said: We know Elsecalling can go point-to-point within a given Realm (see also: the Oathgates). That's probably where most of its utility comes from. Jumping from the Physical to the Cognitive Realms, on the other hand, is a touch more involved. While the underlying surge manipulation is the same, I don't think comparing a magical machine to a person's precision with the surges is the most accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry he/him Posted July 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 6 hours ago, Landis963 said: We know Elsecalling can go point-to-point within a given Realm (see also: the Oathgates). That's probably where most of its utility comes from. Jumping from the Physical to the Cognitive Realms, on the other hand, is a touch more involved. You say point-to-point within a given realm I just thought one always had to go through Shadesmar to transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Here's an excellent recent WoB on the differences between elsecalling and soulcasting, astral protection and how this stuff manifests in the Cognitive Realm. With elsecalling you're literally transforming in an out of investiture. With soulcasting you're creating a little soul bubble in the Cognitive Realm (a bubble that interestingly makes you vulnerable). I'm pretty confident elsecalling is point to point, they don't need to juno into the Cognitive Realm and walk to where they're going. I think Jasnah just teleported entirely into the Cognitive Realm to avoid death, as a stopgap until she could recover and get what she needed. Quote Q: When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool? A: Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases. Q: So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm? A: Yes. Q: Okay. A: Which is weird. Q: Yeah. A: But yes, um... Q: As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self. A: Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah… Q: And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same... A: Yep, mhm, yep. Q: Perfect. A: Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax he/him Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Well, it's dangerous. This is from a Jasnah snippet between book 2 & 3 (see readings and excerpts for the full episode) Spoiler Jasnah jumped, spinning. It sounded a trumping beast, only overlaid by the sounds of glass breaking. The terrible noise drove a shiver up her spine. It sounded like it had come from someplace nearby. Ivory gasped. He leaped forward, grabbing Jasnah by the arm. “We must go.” “What is that?” Jasnah asked. “Grinder,” Ivory said. “You call them painspren.” “Painspren are harmless.” “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore. Come.” He yanked on her arm. Edited July 29, 2017 by axcellence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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