Elend and Vin--Love/Hate Hate/Hate

[Alayala_Radiant she/her]

Ok, I am about to post what is likely going to be a very unpopular view, but here goes.  I am 50% through book 3 of the Mistborn trilogy and I do not particularly like Vin as a character.  (insert: "Are you crazy?!") I started out liking her in book 1, was completely annoyed by her in book 2 and my feelings haven't changed in book 3 so far.  

 

I feel almost exactly the same with Elend, except he is growing on me big time in book 2.  I have this sinking feeling that Vin is a lost cause for me.  I want to like her, but her insecurities about being good enough for Elend even after being the best Mistborn ever just rubs me wrong.  So does her love of balls and fluffy dresses.  I mean, I get it.  It makes her more complicated, but maybe I would like her more if she just owned up to her badThis post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesedness and felt that she totally deserved Elend.  

 

Doesn't anybody else feel the same or have I just committed a cardinal sin. 

[Quiver he/him]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm actually the opposite. I like Vin much more than I do Elend.

It's that paranoid voice of her's; it's very distinctive to me. On the other hand, I thought Elend was a bit too Prince Charming in the first book , and really didn't like how that ended, with him on the throne. It meant I enjoyed book II more, since it was reacting to what being a leader means, while I felt Zane was... Kind of an odd plot line.

Being vague, sorry. I enjoyed reading your impressions of the first book though, I just didn't think I could comment without spoiling things.

[Alayala_Radiant she/her]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm actually the opposite. I like Vin much more than I do Elend.

It's that paranoid voice of her's; it's very distinctive to me. On the other hand, I thought Elend was a bit too Prince Charming in the first book , and really didn't like how that ended, with him on the throne. It meant I enjoyed book II more, since it was reacting to what being a leader means, while I felt Zane was... Kind of an odd plot line.

Being vague, sorry. I enjoyed reading your impressions of the first book though, I just didn't think I could comment without spoiling things.

 

I totally respect your opinion. Thanks for posting.  I like seeing how other people perceive/feel about the characters.  It gives more dept to the book.  

 

I was uber excited about Zane at first, but was put-off by the way his story ended. However, I do like how the voice in his head is tying into Ruin in book 3.  Its a nice touch. 

[bartbug he/him]

I think that I can definitely see what your point is, and it is valid. Vin did kind of annoy me, but believe me, she comes into her own in the last book. Yes, she is definitely awesome and bad donkey, and she is definitely insecure about it, but there is a specific point that I can think of when she goes all Kelsier and completely throws her doubt to the wind. It's a very compelling character arc, and it pretty much resolves your problems with her.

 

Yeah, I absolutely hated Elend in the first book. I asked my friend, who had read it before me, if he died, and he said yes. When I later found out his falsehood, I tore (the books) his heart out of (his hands) his chest and devoured (them) it. But as you have seen, Elend gets better and I love him as much as Vin.

[el_warko he/him]

For what it is worth I found 80% of the Vin/Eland plot in WoA and HoA to be a chore.  Picks up in the back end of each though. 

 

Generally, I prefered the other "Krew" members PoV's in each book Kelsier, Breeze, Spook and TenSoon (Spook and TenSoon were my favourite's).

[name_here]

 

 I have this sinking feeling that Vin is a lost cause for me.  I want to like her, but her insecurities about being good enough for Elend even after being the best Mistborn ever just rubs me wrong.  So does her love of balls and fluffy dresses.  I mean, I get it.  It makes her more complicated, but maybe I would like her more if she just owned up to her badThis post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rulesedness and felt that she totally deserved Elend.

 

I felt Vin's insecurities were very well-handled, because they felt deeply ingrained. She's absolutely convinced that she is not particularly special or competent and rejects evidence to the contrary. Whenever someone praises her skill at something she gets uncomfortable and changes the subject. I did want her to get over them, but wasn't annoyed at her for not doing so.

 

Also, I must take issue with your complaint about her loving balls and fluffy dresses. Those are perfectly acceptable things to like, and liking them is not incompatible with being a highly skilled Mistborn.

[king of nowhere]

the paradox is, in your criticism you're actually embracing her point of view. Rejecting what she is according to some arbitrary idea of what she should be, thinking there's something wrong with her despite her saving luthadel from three armies practically single-handed. Yet you hate her. and if you hate her, how could elend love her? maybe she really is not good enough for him.

 

Anyway, When I read mistborn 1 the first time, vin jumped to the top of my "fictional character I'd want to hug" ranking (alas, now she's only third). I have a very strong protective instinct for traumatized, frail girls. I didn't like elend, feeling he was a useless character and the story could have gotten well without him. until near the end, when his place in the plot became clear. I really loved the scene where kelsier says "elend is a noble" and vin answers "so are you!". One of my favourite ones. and the subsequent scene of kell mending hurt feelings is a great scene for heartwarming.

In mistborn 2 my appreciation for elend increased, but I disliked vin when she went emo. If I had also a "fictional character (non-villain) I'd want to bash with a baseball bat" she would have taken first place there now. while i feel protective towards genuinely traumatized girls, i ddefinitely loathe emo ones. And I definitely didn't like that she was considering zane over elend. especially since zane was clearly unhinged in the head.

But then she came to her senses, and i had no more problems with her.

I liked the confident, mature woman she became in 3. So i understand disliking her in 2, but in 3 not at all.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think she makes sense.  She waffles a bit more than I would prefer.  But, she spent almost all of her life in a different life than the one she is living now.  She is uncertain as to her role and her value.  Not that she does not think that she has a role or value.  But rather, she is concerned that her role is one-dimensional.  Most of that seems to be resolved before the start of HoA.  I was glad to see that in HoA she becomes much more comfortable and secure in her relationship with Elend.  

 

From my own experience, I am perfectly comfortable with my wife, but I truly believe that I have the better end of our marriage.  I think I am beyond lucky to be married to her.  I esteem her far higher than I esteem myself.  Personally, I think that is a natural outgrowth of love.  

 

Being the world's greatest mistborn is great and all, but she recognizes that that is a tool.  It doesn't make her a better person, it only makes her a more useful person.  You don't feel you become worthy of someone's love because of your resume.  Rather, because of who you are, your personality, your choices, your loves, your, hates, your fears, your strengths, your weaknesses and your perception of those facets in the one you love.

 

If you have not yet noted the increased comfort and confidence that Vin has in her relationship with Elend, just wait.  It's there.

[Alayala_Radiant she/her]

Okay.  So I just blasted through the last 50% of the book this morning and I take it all back. I love everybody in this book.  Even the Lord Ruler! How could I be so blind.  It wasn't me. It was the Ruin, he manipulated me into disliking Vin and Elend.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I actually like TLR as well.. glad I'm not the only one!! if not for him, Ruin would have won long ago! Hurray for holding the fort until Vin/Sazed could save the day!

 

I never noticed until learning more about the expanded Cosmere, how much Perservation's Intent drove TLR. I almost (almost) feel sorry for him, which is a victory for Brandon's writing that he can make me feel the least bit of sympathy for someone who is clearly a monster!

[bartbug he/him]

How in the heck is TLR a monster?

 

Then again, it depends on what you consider to be a monster. If you think someone like Ruin is, then I guess I understand you. But even then, it's hard to not look at TLR with anything but awe and respect. He potentially saved billions of lives, and nearly every "bad" thing that he did, it was connected somewhat evidently to Preservation's influence on him combined with Ruin's never ending torment. Yes, TLR killed Kelsier. But you know what? In the grand scheme of things, Kelsier (until book three) was a villain. He was on Ruin's side. Unwitting, yes, but still. He killed wantonly and broke apart a system that above all things, worked. In all honesty, the Lord Ruler is my favorite character in the trilogy.

[king of nowhere]

How in the heck is TLR a monster?

 

HE made a system where nobles had the right to rape women and the duty to kill them afterwards. Where it was normal in a plantation that half a dozen skaa would die every month for the beatings. where millions were sacrificed to keep the koloss garrisons (those things grow fast, die after a while, and it takes 5 people to make one of them).

 

Now, I can accept he had to make some drastic decisions. I accept that in the new world there was less food available, and it made sense to make a slave calss and a noble class that would preserve culture. In a more egalitarian world there just would have been too little for everyone. I can even accept that he would conquest most of the world - although I would have let the nations far from luthadel survive. they just could pose no treath whatsoever to me. But there wass absolutely no reason to allow the rape andd murder of women, and the constant killing of people. he could have just put into law that skaa could be beaten only for rebellion, and encouraged them to make less children to keep the population under control. He could have legiferated that skaa women raped by nobles were forced to abort, but otherwise left alone. There was much unneeded brutality in the final empire.

 

 

Okay.  So I just blasted through the last 50% of the book this morning and I take it all back. I love everybody in this book.  Even the Lord Ruler! How could I be so blind.  It wasn't me. It was the Ruin, he manipulated me into disliking Vin and Elend.

Aww, that's nice. welcome to the club!

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

HE made a system where nobles had the right to rape women and the duty to kill them afterwards. Where it was normal in a plantation that half a dozen skaa would die every month for the beatings. where millions were sacrificed to keep the koloss garrisons (those things grow fast, die after a while, and it takes 5 people to make one of them).

 

This... and also the wanton slaughter of the Skaa by Inquisitors in the streets after the uprisings while he sat there impassively? Allowing his Inquisitors to run around murdering as they saw fit? 

 

Murdering the person who his religion said was the hero of prophecy because he didn't want an outsider to have the glory? Castrating any potential Feruchemist that he could find so that there couldn't be a Mistborn/Feruchemist threat to his rule? Turning his Feruchemist friends into weird shapechanging creatures who if you remove the spikes from they become mindless scavengers? 

 

Not to say that stopping Alendi didn't end up being the right thing to do, and Preservation's power surely impacted his decisions on how to order and structure his empire, but he is still responsible for the methods and societal norms of that Empire, so ultimately they fall on him. Therefore, monster. Remember that it was a LAW that any skaa woman who slept with a noble was to be murdered so that she wouldn't have a child. That's a step beyond abortion, which in our own world is a hot button issue, it surprises me that people overlook things like premptive abortion and other things about the society that TLR set up. 

 

Let me count the ways where TLR was a monster...

 

EDIT: I do still like the character though. I am a big Dexter fan too though so it's not that surprising I guess. 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[name_here]

My take on TLR is that he was manifestly unqualified for the responsibility that wound up getting dumped on him, and lacking any sort of grounding in coherent political philosophy he hastily assembled one from various bits of previous empires into something that could hold together in the harsh conditions. The abuses in the Final Empire were largely based on abuses endemic in preexisting societies. I will grant it was far from the most ethical system that would work, but on the other hand it was assembled by a young rural laborer of some sort after a virtual apocalypse and not everyone died.

 

Plus, by the time of the books Ruin had been attempting to drive him insane for over a thousand years. It was probably getting to him.

[Moogle]

I can even accept that he would conquest most of the world - although I would have let the nations far from luthadel survive. they just could pose no treath whatsoever to me.

 

I think you're wrong. Ruin showed a remarkable ability to alter cultures over time, to the point where cultures pre-TLR practiced Hemalurgy. Only a select few practiced Hemalurgy in the Final Empire, as a result of TLR stamping it out. Not a single obligator was 'corrupt' and served Ruin. Inquisitors only served Ruin after TLR died. TLR made his own culture, and it worked out really damnation well for him. Everything was static, so Ruin couldn't change anything. Had TLR allowed other cultures to survive, Ruin would have had an easy time manipulating them.

 

TLR's iron grip on culture truly worked there; Ruin only ever managed to manipulate people who were criminals into doing any damage. Had TLR enforced the law even more effectively (killed more and more skaa, made sure more Inquisitors hunted down rebel Mistings, and ensured that every nobleman killed any skaa they slept with), TLR was basically set for life and Ruin would have gotten nothing done until TLR could have used the Well again and fixed all of the problems he caused previously.

 

TLR's overly soft heart was responsible for Ruin's near-victory, ultimately. I say this only half-sarcastically.

 

This... and also the wanton slaughter of the Skaa by Inquisitors in the streets after the uprisings while he sat there impassively? Allowing his Inquisitors to run around murdering as they saw fit?

 

Said skaa were literally uprising against him, and he made it his life's work to save the world from Ruin. The rebels were putting the world at danger (and almost destroyed it). He spent hundreds of years forcing down skaa and trying to get them to accept his rule. If the skaa didn't rebel, there would have been no issues there. I can't condemn him for slaughtering skaa (at least in that instance).

 

Murdering the person who his religion said was the hero of prophecy because he didn't want an outsider to have the glory? Castrating any potential Feruchemist that he could find so that there couldn't be a Mistborn/Feruchemist threat to his rule? Turning his Feruchemist friends into weird shapechanging creatures who if you remove the spikes from they become mindless scavengers?

 

The person he 'murdered' was going to release Ruin and doom the world. How can you fault him there? He was ordered to do it, too, by Kwaan. They even tried nonviolent methods to lead Alendi astray before killing him.

 

Castrating Feruchemists was the safest way to keep his power. He was the only immortal (except for the kandra), and the only person who could truly long-term plan. It's distasteful castrating Feruchemists, but they weren't exactly treated terribly (except for the brood mares) once castrated. Sazed was never beaten, for example, and occupied a fairly high position in society. If the Keepers had not tried to sabotage TLR's efforts, it's entirely possible he would have stamped out Feruchemy and then he could have let the Terris go free. (I am aware this may sound like victim blaming, so I would like to put a disclaimer here that the Keepers had no way to know what they were doing was dangerous and I certainly do not blame them. It was a mistake by Rashek for not turning literally everyone with Terris blood into kandra, and as a result of this mistake, horrible acts occurred. I do not condone castration or eugenics.)

 

As to turning his Feruchemist friends into mistwraiths: personally, I would prefer to be a kandra. Being immortal is a gift, and shapechanging is pretty neat. It doesn't seem like kandra need to eat, they get extra powers... being a kandra is an upgrade. I can't condemn him here, though I suppose you could argue that he performed a disservice to any mistwraiths who weren't immediately spiked.

 

 

Remember that it was a LAW that any skaa woman who slept with a noble was to be murdered so that she wouldn't have a child. That's a step beyond abortion, which in our own world is a hot button issue, it surprises me that people overlook things like premptive abortion and other things about the society that TLR set up.

TLR never encouraged rape, he simply failed to punish it. He himself never raped anyone, nor did he command anyone to rape people, nor did he himself apparently like rape. His law for killing skaa women was not only for rape: it applied equally to cases of willing procreation between skaa and noblemen who loved each other. I would blame the nobles for, y'know, mass raping people, not TLR on this one, though I can see where he might have been able to do more to stop the rape.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Moogle

[name_here]

I would not go so far as to say he was a good person. While I am willing to give a lot of ethical leeway for a successful effort to save the world, the ends only justify the means when the means are necessary for the ends. The skaa were treated much worse than necessary. I'll accept some mistreatment on the basis that ashfalls made farming horribly labor-intensive and slavery was an efficient means of feeding everyone, but the casual acceptance of killing skaa at a whim is wholly unnecessary, as is permitting rape, especially since skaa were considered his property on loan, giving him grounds to demand any execution be justified to the Steel Ministry.

However, I am willing to believe he incorrectly believed that it was necessary because that's how the previous slave-holding empires worked and he didn't want to change things because it risked starvation if he made the wrong changes.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Said skaa were literally uprising against him, and he made it his life's work to save the world from Ruin. The rebels were putting the world at danger (and almost destroyed it). He spent hundreds of years forcing down skaa and trying to get them to accept his rule. If the skaa didn't rebel, there would have been no issues there. I can't condemn him for slaughtering skaa (at least in that instance).

 

The person he 'murdered' was going to release Ruin and doom the world. How can you fault him there? He was ordered to do it, too, by Kwaan. They even tried nonviolent methods to lead Alendi astray before killing him.

 

Castrating Feruchemists was the safest way to keep his power. He was the only immortal (except for the kandra), and the only person who could truly long-term plan. It's distasteful castrating Feruchemists, but they weren't exactly treated terribly (except for the brood mares) once castrated. Sazed was never beaten, for example, and occupied a fairly high position in society. If the Keepers had not tried to sabotage TLR's efforts, it's entirely possible he would have stamped out Feruchemy and then he could have let the Terris go free. (I am aware this may sound like victim blaming, so I would like to put a disclaimer here that the Keepers had no way to know what they were doing was dangerous and I certainly do not blame them. It was a mistake by Rashek for not turning literally everyone with Terris blood into kandra, and as a result of this mistake, horrible acts occurred. I do not condone castration or eugenics.)

 

As to turning his Feruchemist friends into mistwraiths: personally, I would prefer to be a kandra. Being immortal is a gift, and shapechanging is pretty neat. It doesn't seem like kandra need to eat, they get extra powers... being a kandra is an upgrade. I can't condemn him here, though I suppose you could argue that he performed a disservice to any mistwraiths who weren't immediately spiked.

 

TLR never encouraged rape, he simply failed to punish it. He himself never raped anyone, nor did he command anyone to rape people, nor did he himself apparently like rape. His law for killing skaa women was not only for rape: it applied equally to cases of willing procreation between skaa and noblemen who loved each other. I would blame the nobles for, y'know, mass raping people, not TLR on this one, though I can see where he might have been able to do more to stop the rape.

 

I kind of hope that you're playing devil's advocate here, and I don't want to derail this thread too much further. it is interesting that TenSoon says that "(TLR) was not an evil man." (Hero of Ages). 

 

I really can see it from both perspectives, that TLR was and was not a monster, that he was "just doing what he had to do to save the world from Ruin.", but I agree with @name_here it doesn't excuse the excesses that he allowed the nobility or the Inquisitors in their use of the skaa. Honestly, your argument that the law to murder skaa women applied to consensual relationships as well make it a worse law in my eyes.

 

I guess my limited sympathy of TLR is overwhelmed by my own agreement with the First Ideal of the Knight's Radiant: 

 

 

“Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 831). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

To me, TLR chose horrible methods to achieve his "preservation" of the world, and he was indeed a monster. Or at least became one in the last centuries.  

Edited February 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Moogle]

I kind of hope that you're playing devil's advocate here, and I don't want to derail this thread too much further. it is interesting that TenSoon says that "(TLR) was not an evil man." (Hero of Ages).

 

TenSoon's views were shaped by the kandra, who revered the Lord Ruler. I think he's a very biased source. I think it's quite clear that by most modern moral standards that TLR was 'evil'. He was justified in some ways, and kept the world safe, but the guy was not admirable. (I would consider a certain person in the Stormlight Archive to be Rashek 2.0; admirable in many ways, justified, and competent.)

 

I was not playing devil's advocate in my post. I took no view on TLR in my post. I happened to agree with the post I was arguing against that TLR was a despicable man.

 

He was quite clearly a racist, impulsive and incompetent, and incredibly poor at interpersonal skills. (I refer mainly to his inability to tell Vin anything like, say, "DON'T LET RUIN OUT OF THE WELL" and instead complaining that they didn't understand what they did when I complain about his interpersonal skills.)

 

I simply disagreed with most points brought up by the poster as to why he was a monster. The caste system of skaa and noble was poorly handled, and he created a society where noblemen feasted and the poor starved. His Hemalurgy labs, too, should be enough to get most anyone to condemn the man. How many thousands of people died so he could get no Hemalurgical knowledge?

 

Killing Kwaan because Kwaan wouldn't listen to him and his general enslavement of the Terris people were poorly handled. He wouldn't have had to capture any Terris people at all if he hadn't handed out lerasium beads to people. The sheer incompetence present in that irritates me. Most of the horrors present in the Final Empire were a result of TLR giving Allomancy to the world. Inquisitors came from the need to hunt down Skaa Mistings, the killing of raped skaa women came about as a result of Rashek fearing the skaa gaining Allomancy, the Terris people having to be enslaved because an Allomancer + Feruchemist could have killed Rashek... all of this happened because Rashek was too stupid to manipulate enemy kings into following him and instead bribed them with Allomancy.

 

Some of it, I think, can't be blamed on him. Ruin and Preservation both influenced his personality in rather disturbing ways. By the end he was quite clearly half-insane thanks to Ruin. Before any of this influenced him, though, he had major flaws and was a poor excuse for a human being.

 

I would appreciate it if someone would care to tell me why I was downvoted in my previous post so I can seek to be less offensive in the future. Was it the general tone? I've been trying to work on that. Sorry if it was.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

TenSoon's views were shaped by the kandra, who revered the Lord Ruler. I think he's a very biased source. I think it's quite clear that by most modern moral standards that TLR was 'evil'. He was justified in some ways, and kept the world safe, but the guy was not admirable.

 

I was not playing devil's advocate in my post. I took no view on TLR in my post. I happened to agree with the post I was arguing against that TLR was a despicable man. He was quite clearly a racist, impulsive and incompetent, and incredibly poor at interpersonal skills. (I refer mainly to his inability to tell Vin anything like, say, "DON'T LET RUIN OUT OF THE WELL" and instead complaining that they didn't understand what they did when I complain about his interpersonal skills.) I simply disagreed with most points brought up by the poster as to why he was a monster. The caste system of skaa and noble was poorly handled, and he created a society where noblemen feasted and the poor starved. His Hemalurgy labs, too, should be enough to get most anyone to condemn the man. How many thousands of people died so he could get no Hemalurgical knowledge?

 

I would appreciate it if someone would care to tell me why I was downvoted in my previous so I can seek to be less offensive in the future. Was it the general tone? I've been trying to work on that. Sorry if it was.

 

I didn't do the downvote so I can't tell you. I thought your tone was fine, though I am confused as it seemed that you were disagreeing with me, but now you say you agree with my premise...

 

I am curious, if you agree with my main point, but not with my specific points, what are your reasons for thinking TLR is a monster? 

 

If murder, attempted genocide/force breeding programs, agents created through the slaughter of multiple people (Kandra, Koloss, & Inquisitors I'm looking at you...), laws requiring murder of (presumed) innocent women, and the general state of oppression that he set up AREN'T grounds for being considered a monster... what is? Even in his world he is considered evil by the skaa at least. 

Edited February 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Moogle]

I am curious, if you agree with my main point, but not with my specific points, what are your reasons for thinking TLR is a monster? 

 

If murder, attempted genocide/force breeding programs, agents created through the slaughter of multiple people (Kandra, Koloss, & Inquisitors I'm looking at you...), laws requiring murder of (presumed) innocent women, and the general state of oppression that he set up AREN'T grounds for being considered a monster... what is? Even in his world he is considered evil by the skaa at least. 

 

I edited my post to detail things a bit more. You are right that I support your general point but disagree with some specifics. My second last post in this thread only detailed specifics I disagreed with.

 

Things I find justified (see second last post):

• TLR wiping out all cultures and making his own.
• Killing skaa rebelling against him (given his motivations to save the world, and the fact that his death doomed the world and/or significantly increased chances of it being destroyed).
• Possibly his killing of skaa women who could be pregnant with Allomancers, though frankly this shouldn't have had to happen if he hadn't been an idiot and unleashed Allomancy on the world.
• Turning Feruchemists into kandra. Frankly, I find it reprehensible that he didn't turn every single person in the entire world into a kandra. They're immortal, require no food (I think? TenSoon enjoyed rotting meat, but did he need it? I recall also that was given food and water during captivity, but he never mentioned being hungry or anything... in any case, he needed less food than a regular human), and are hardier. He wouldn't have even had to deal with the Deepness had he done this. You can harvest animals for Hemalurgic spikes (edit: source), and that would be sufficient to give mistwraiths sentience as far as I know. He essentially let the entire population of the planet die, constantly, for a thousand years. (I note that the Cosmere has an afterlife, so this death isn't necessarily a bad thing, but Rashek had no way of knowing anything about the afterlife so I condemn him all same for this.)
• His general oppression of people (though he could have done some things less cruelly, he did live in a medieval society and I can't condemn him for having the views of his own time). He had knowledge of something that could destroy the planet, and could trust no one else to protect Scadrial. Setting himself up as a tyrant seems perfectly reasonable.
• Killing Alendi, as Alendi was going to destroy the entire world. He was further justified by the fact that he did it under orders and tried non-violent means of preventing Alendi from unleashing Ruin before killing him.

Things I do not find justified (see last post):

• His racism.
• Releasing Allomancy into the world.
• Impatience on his part (pushing Scadrial next to the sun).
• Inability to tell Vin anything useful as he lay dying, instead being incredibly self-centered.
• Sticking himself with a Hemalurgic spike, and most Hemalurgy in general. Inquisitors, Hemalurgy labs, etc. Kandra are fine, naturally.
• His lax rules in regards to noblemen. I don't blame him for the rapes, or think it made him a monster, but really he should have taken a very strict approach in regulating what nobles could and could not do.
• The caste system.
• Allowing nobles to live in decadence while skaa starved and were beaten.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Moogle

[name_here]

Actually, I think releasing Allomancy was an integral part of the massively elaborate Atium gambit that was significantly responsible for ultimate victory. So he's in the clear on that one.

 

 

• His lax rules in regards to noblemen. I don't blame him for the rapes, or think it made him a monster, but really he should have taken a very strict approach in regulating what nobles could and could not do.

 

I do blame him for the rapes, because he had the power and authority to stop them. By claiming absolute power, he effectively took responsibility for everything his subjects do, so he's indirectly complicit in any abuses he knows of and does not stop. 

[Moogle]

Actually, I think releasing Allomancy was an integral part of the massively elaborate Atium gambit that was significantly responsible for ultimate victory. So he's in the clear on that one.

 

The massive gambit would never have been necessary had he not released Allomancy into the world. Over the next 20000 years, TLR could have kept using the Well and fixing the planet, and slowly Ruin's power would have been all drained away into atium carefully hidden by the kandra to the point where Ruin would have been a shade of his former power, and Preservation could have overpowered him at that point.

 

Alloy of Law... might have been an improvement compared to that, but I'm not sure. Sazed is not exactly doing much of worth. Keeping Preservation and Ruin separate really wouldn't have resulted in a world that was too different, I think.

 

I do blame him for the rapes, because he had the power and authority to stop them. By claiming absolute power, he effectively took responsibility for everything his subjects do, so he's indirectly complicit in any abuses he knows of and does not stop. 

 

Fair enough, though I have issues with the notion that TLR was responsible for, say, Zane torturing his father's mistress. I suspect this one comes down to personal feelings and so I will leave it at that.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter he/him]

The massive gambit would never have been necessary had he not released Allomancy into the world. Over the next 20000 years, TLR could have kept using the Well and fixing the planet, and slowly Ruin's power would have been all drained away into atium carefully hidden by the kandra to the point where Ruin would have been a shade of his former power, and Preservation could have overpowered him at that point.

 

I actually remember reading something (maybe in the annotations) about how the conflict between Ruin and Preservation was coming to a head and that even if the Lord Ruler or Vin had used the power of the Well Scadrial probably wouldn't have made it to the next cycle, let alone 20 of them.

 

Edit: Here's the WoB (courtesy of Moogle actually):

 

 

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

 

(source)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

 

Well, releasing Allomancy was probably a mistake overall because of what he had to do in order to regulate it down the road, but it appears from Weiry that it was a moot point. Plus outside of allomancy, Atium's value is pretty minimal. It's only value would have been in the payment of Kandra. 

 

As to Zane... I don't hold TLR personally responsible for each act, but certainly for setting up and tacitly approving the systems that allowed for the gross abuses of skaa that were present. For Zane, and the individual's carrying out their acts under TLR I view it much like Szeth: 

 

 

“I am not absolved,” Szeth said, still wary. “It is a common mistake stone-walkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul.” The voices… the screams… spirits below, I can hear them howling…. “Yet you kill.” “It is my punishment,” Szeth said. “To kill, to have no choice, but to bear the sins nonetheless. Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 973). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Each person is responsible for their own actions, TLR is responsible for setting up the system and allowing it to take place. And those lower on rungs usually take their lead from the ones at the top. 

 

Leaders display societal mores, rulers define them, and absolute rulers dictate them. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn