Herald Pailiah

[phoenix2563]

Just wanted to post a thought on my recent reread of the first two books of SA.  From what I have read here, most have found the Herald Pailiah to be the Ardent walking through the Palanaeum that Shallan notes walking by like a Herald in WoK.  

What if this ardent is the SAME ardent from Lhan's interlude, who he thinks is called something "like" Pai?   Since Pailiah's order is the truthwatchers I don't see her being dishonest with her name, and "Pai" could be kind of a nickname.  Also, being an ardent goes with "learning" and her concern for the waste and desire to give to the poor goes with "giving".  She is highly critical of the ardents, even the church itself, and comes across as an outsider.  Her writing of the glyphs at the end of the segment also goes along with what we know of the truthwatcher order (similar to Renarin's writing at the end of WoR, and also possibly Dalinar's wall).  

As for the "execution" of Pai, do we know how she was executed?  In other words, was she killed in a way that a Truthwatcher could not recover from with Regrowth?  Pai certainly did not seem to fear death.  Obviously if this is Pailiah she would have needed to either retrieved her Honorblade or somehow formed a Nahel bond to use the truthwatching surges.

Edited July 27, 2017 by phoenix2563

[Pagerunner he/him]

Many names are based on the Heralds names - Kaladin from Kalak, Shallan from Shallash. I think it's a good catch that Pai came from Pailiah, but I don't think it goes any farther than that. Without her Honorblade, Pailiah would be unable to use either Illumination (to change her appearance) or Progression (to heal herself), and all of our Honorblades are accounted for.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Pagerunner

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Do we know wether Heralds can use Stormlight healing without Honorblades? That would let Pailiah get by without her Blade. 

And then, I feel like someone might have noticed if Pais body just disappeared.

So, like @Pagerunner said, good catch, but I doubt its her :-)

 

 

[+Extesian he/him]

They cannot surgebind without the blades

Quote

RYBAL

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

They can use fabrials, as Nale did in WoR. But that would require someone to use it on her, and it only works for a very short time after death. So it shouldn't be possible unfortunately. But it was a nice catch. 

[phoenix2563]

We know that Nale uses a regrowth fabrial; maybe there is some kind of illumination fabrial she uses to make it look like she is being executed?

Or maybe it has to do with the "something else" that makes Heralds unique?  We see that Taln is able to catch an assassin's dart aimed at Amaram, and we know that he does not have his honorblade at this time.  Maybe there are still certain things Pailiah can do to either survive the execution or make it look like she was executed?  She IS the patron of both Regrowth and Illumination, after all.  

Her being dead just seems too simple for me, and this strange ardent just seems to fit everything we know about Pailiah.

 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, phoenix2563 said:

Her being dead just seems too simple for me, and this strange ardent just seems to fit everything we know about Pailiah.

I honestly hope you're wrong. 

Pai's story is short, but makes absolutely perfect sense on it's own. 

A truly devout ardent, who joined the devotaries to try and enact change, comes to Kholinar. She then finds a horde of her supposed brethren making a mockery of her beliefs, and participating in propping up a leader who is, with their support, wasting resources while the population suffers. 

She then sacrificed herself for the greater good. I find it both poignant and compelling. 

As far as Paliah is concerned, beyond being female and posing as an ardent, what do we really know? 

[+hwiles]

That she's insane like the other Heralds. I'm not sure if that makes this more, or less, likely...

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I find it hard to believe a Herald would cause such a ruckus. All heralds we have seen seem to want to keep a relatively low profile and not cause excessive waves. Even Nale just hunts those that will not be missed. And what Shallash does could just be attributed to random rascals.

[StormblessDave]

I found Pai to be a really motivating character who stood up for what was right despite her world being shattered when she finds out she's the only devout ardent, i really hope she isn't crazy like what @Calderis said, because standing up for what's right isn't my idea of "mad".

Nice theory though, phoenix 

Edited July 27, 2017 by StormblessDave

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I find it hard to believe a Herald would cause such a ruckus. All heralds we have seen seem to want to keep a relatively low profile and not cause excessive waves. Even Nale just hunts those that will not be missed. And what Shallash does could just be attributed to random rascals.

Actually, depending on the Ishar = Tezim theory, this might not be true. 

Paliahs attributes are learned and giving, and by the Heralds are twisted and corrupted theory, these would be, well, twisted and corrupted. 

I dont believe Pailiah is Pai, but for the sake of discussion, lets say she is. In what ways would her corrupted attributes fit with Pais actions?

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I dont believe Pailiah is Pai, but for the sake of discussion, lets say she is. In what ways would her corrupted attributes fit with Pais actions?

They would be ignorant and selfish, which would be essentially everything Pai struck out against. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

They would be ignorant and selfish, which would be essentially everything Pai struck out against. 

Are you sure? If we look at Nalan, he is corrupted but, technically, he is just. He follows the law in a cold and extreme way, which ends up being morally unjust, but correct if we are going by the book.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Are you sure? If we look at Nalan, he is corrupted but, technically, he is just. He follows the law in a cold and extreme way, which ends up being morally unjust, but correct if we are going by the book.

True, it could manifest differently. Nale is not Just though. As much as he claims to obey the law, he twists it so that no matter the crime the punishment is death. He uses loopholes to undermine the very law he claims to hold dear for maximum penalties. 

That is not Just. 

I don't see how Learned and Giving could be twisted in such a way... But I agree I am over simplifying it. 

[+hwiles]

Well...Pai seems to have deliberately set out to initiate an uprising against the queen and ardentia; She quickly developed a rigorous understanding of the queen's temperament and published her analysis of how it violated all of the holy attributes.  She had to know she was going to be executed.

First, I find it very difficult to believe that any Herald would stick around for 4,500 years, then deliberately get themselves killed over one crumby ruler who basically is only responsible for the governance of a single city (The majority of the day to day operations and decisions appear to be handled by the highprinces and/or their regional governors).

Buuut...Her primary outrage at the queen appears to stem from wastefulness and ignorance.  This could represent a corruption of the attributes of "Learned" and "Giving" in the sense that, rather than promote the cultivation of those traits in others, she sought to punish and tear down those who did not exhibit them to her satisfaction.

Nalan was the herald of Justice.  This doesn't mean he was a judge or sought to root out criminals.  In the context of a Herald come to Roshar to unite humanity against an invading army of demons, it most likely means he sought to cultivate law and order and instill a sense of justice in the people of Roshar, which is actually quite different.

Quote

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage. 

One interpretation of this quote from Words of Radiance is that the Revv toparchy was experiencing "disturbances," possibly in the form of revolts and/or riots, in response to their leaders prosecuting civil dissensions.  Civil dissent is, in my understanding, usually related to expressions of disagreement or non-conformity with the rhetoric and legislation put forward by the ruling body.  Basically, the rulers of Revv seem to have been imprisoning, punishing, or executing protesters or petitioners who disagreed with their method of governance.  This is a flagrant violation of all but the most draconian interpretations of fairness, the social contract, and the rule of law.  Nalan was then so impressed by the Skybreakers (somehow) resolving the conflict, that he accepted them as his followers.

Alternatively, it could be interpreted as meaning that Revv descended into lawlessness and, in response to this, Nalan accepted the skybreakers as his followers and used them to reestablish order in the province.  Either way, his mission wasn't executing the law, but establishing it.

Speculation: He used to be all about establishing and promoting the rule of law on the macro-scale, now he hunts criminals personally and executes death sentences.  He operates within the law, so he's still exhibiting the attribute of "justice" in that sense, however, he no longer shows any regard for how just the law is.

I'd speculate the Paliah used to be about promoting charity, philanthropy, civil service, and education, and, in some twisted way, she still does.  This might take the form of wanting to punish those who don't exemplify those attributes, spending lots of time helping maintain the Palaneum, or even teaching on the side.  All of those would fulfill her attributes in some way while totally ignoring her original responsibility of promoting those attributes on a macro-scale.

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I'd speculate the Paliah used to be about promoting charity, philanthropy, civil service, and education, and, in some twisted way, she still does.  This might take the form of wanting to punish those who don't exemplify those attributes, spending lots of time helping maintain the Palaneum, or even teaching on the side.  All of those would fulfill her attributes in some way while totally ignoring her original responsibility of promoting those attributes on a macro-scale.

Very well said (for your whole post, not just the quoted portion) and this fits well with our only confirmed siting of her being inside the stacks of the Palaneum. 

[Erandeni he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I don't see how Learned and Giving could be twisted in such a way...

Wild speculation: Maybe instead of sharing her knowledge she is hiding it, stopping others who want to learn, giving just bit of information and thus controlling what people knows about certain subject, she could have hide the uncorrupted books about desolation and voidbringers,(or any other subject), maybe even write some books herself like the ones Jasnah find, with just little and almost useless information.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Idealistic
grammar

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't see how Learned and Giving could be twisted in such a way... But I agree I am over simplifying it. 

What if she wants to give the people an opportunity to get a better life, through a riot. That would be twisted enough. 

@hwiles and @Idealistic have better ideas though, with her punishing or hiding knowledge. I really like the hiding books thing. Sounds very likely in my opinion.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

For all we know, she could have been integral in the Hierocracy corrupting the historical records.

[Nathrangking he/him]

It is quite possible that the protesting ardent is in fact Paliah. The fact that she objected so loudly to the lies(which is her protesting the untruths being propagated as opposed to the truths that should have been discovered.) May in fact be part of the corruption of her character. The order of the truthwatchers were a secretive bunch as a result her standing up now could well be seen as a reversal or denunciation of the very practice that she started. 

[+Wax he/him]

Well, WoB is that all Heralds are corrupted with each having a unique type of corruption.

Pai seemed to be uncorrupted type.