StormblessDave Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I assume the honorblades don't cause the hell punishments the heralds suffered(Szeth didn't face it)so when they broke their bonds they were no longer attached to the punishment.So why don't the heralds take their honorblades back?If they take it back will they be bound to the oath pact(is that their link to the pact)or do they just feel guilty? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) I personally think it's guilt. There's nothing stopping them from picking the blades back up, as we know Nale has his. I also think they're still somewhat bound to the Oathpact, and if they had "died" during the interim between walking away and now, they would have been sent back to Braize. Just because they stopped fulfilling their duties to the pact doesn't mean they successfully separated themselves from it's effects. Edited July 25, 2017 by Calderis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Calderis said: Just because they stopped fulfilling their duties to the pact doesn't mean they successfully separated themselves from it's effects. I think there is a WoB on this saying that the heralds think the Oathpact is broken, which in fact is not the case. Guilt could be the cause for the Heralds not taking their honorblades or just the notion that they have done their duty long enough. Additionally, some heralds might be on their way to insanity (if Taln is really Taln, if the woman destroying art really is Shallash, and so on). At this point we can only speculate, but it would not be strange if the ten heralds would have transformed to the ten fools. Also Nale does not seem to be totally hale, I would call his behaviour at least sociopathic or psychopathic (I am no psychiatrist, I leave the judgement which one of those two is fitting to the experts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Pattern said: I think there is a WoB on this saying that the heralds think the Oathpact is broken, which in fact is not the case. Guilt could be the cause for the Heralds not taking their honorblades or just the notion that they have done their duty long enough. Wow,I wonder if a few heralds have died and are at braize right now,that would be interesting,and are they trapped as they don't have blades or will they be back due to the desolation.That opens up a lot of possibilities.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 @Pattern here's a couple of WoBs that mention the status of the Oathpact http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#10 http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#15 Quote QUESTION () What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. BRANDON SANDERSON Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. QUESTION Oh. So they've got a time limit. BRANDON SANDERSON They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. QUESTION So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations? BRANDON SANDERSON They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think. Quote QUESTION () How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSON The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). As far as possible Herald deaths @StormblessDaveall I could find was a RAFO. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1038#11 Quote QUESTION Are all of the Heralds who gave up their Honorblades still alive? BRANDON SANDERSON Good question! RAFO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 hours ago, StormblessDave said: Wow,I wonder if a few heralds have died and are at braize right now,that would be interesting,and are they trapped as they don't have blades or will they be back due to the desolation.That opens up a lot of possibilities.... That does indeed raise all kinds of questions. We know or think we know about six of them (Nale and Kalak are seen, the former implies Jezrien and Ishar are both still around, Shalash has also been seen and then there's 'the man who may or may not be Taln') which leaves Chanarach, Vedel, Paliah and Battar's current whereabouts unknown. One more thing to keep our eyes peeled for in Oathvember: Hunt the Heralds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 #hunttheheralds I do personally think that all Heralds are alive, except for maybe one, which will mess things up for one of the orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Weltall said: That does indeed raise all kinds of questions. We know or think we know about six of them (Nale and Kalak are seen, the former implies Jezrien and Ishar are both still around, Shalash has also been seen and then there's 'the man who may or may not be Taln') which leaves Chanarach, Vedel, Paliah and Battar's current whereabouts unknown. One more thing to keep our eyes peeled for in Oathvember: Hunt the Heralds. @the Sovereign (another "the" name I can't tag on mobile) got confirmation that the elderly ardent woman that Shallan sees wandering the stacks of the Palaneum in tWoK is Paliah. Edit: it was signed into one of his books. Edited July 25, 2017 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 @Calderis Didn't know that one, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 ok. Why are the heralds still alive? They don't have their direct connection to Honor through their honorblades anymore. How have they lived this long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Flash said: ok. Why are the heralds still alive? They don't have their direct connection to Honor through their honorblades anymore. How have they lived this long? The connection they had to honor, and the excessive use of investiture turned them into Cognitive Shadows. Despite having a connection to the Physical Realm, they are functionally immortal. Their spirit doesn't age any longer so neither do their bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: The connection they had to honor, and the excessive use of investiture turned them into Cognitive Shadows. Despite having a connection to the Physical Realm, they are functionally immortal. Their spirit doesn't age any longer so neither do their bodies. Right. I knew that lol. Now did they know that? Did they know that they would last forever, crisscrossing Roshar? How did that make them feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Flash said: Right. I knew that lol. Now did they know that? Did they know that they would last forever, crisscrossing Roshar? How did that make them feel? That's a good question. Considering their lives before I doubt it. They never stayed long enough to know that they'd stopped aging. I think that the guilt of what they did, mixed with the growing madness they are all subject to in one form or another has kept them from questioning things to heavily. They have to realize that their longevity is unnatural, but admitting that they are still somehow more than human is likely too close to admitting that they aren't free of the Oathpact. If they admit that, then they have duties to fulfill (which Nale at least seems to think he has been trying to fulfill, and by extension of him, possibly I share as well assuming he's just mad and not a traitor). Admitting they are still subject to the Oathpact also means realizing that death means a return to Braize. All factors considered, I think a few of them are either in heavy denial, or spend their time so inebriated as to be unable to think. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormblessDave Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Their madness are connected to their characteristics right?For example Ishar is misguiding,Nale is taking justice too far,and maybe the others?For some reason Shalash is destroying her statues,is that connected to the madness?Have they gone crazy due to Honor's death?so many questions lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 There's been a variety of theories on the cause of their encroaching madness and the way each one expresses it but we don't have enough solid examples to establish a pattern. For example, Ishar could be perverting his associated divine attribute of 'Guiding' by misleading others, he could have a madness unrelated to these attributes (ie he's just in denial) or he could be actively misleading people instead of it being an expression of madness, if you want to assume there's more up with him than just some screws loose. That leaves us with two Heralds whose madness we can quantify with a reasonable degree of certainty but two isn't really enough to establish a pattern. It's quite likely but I'd prefer to have a third Herald whose madness we can describe in detail before I'd bet money on the idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 On 7/25/2017 at 10:58 AM, Weltall said: That does indeed raise all kinds of questions. We know or think we know about six of them (Nale and Kalak are seen, the former implies Jezrien and Ishar are both still around, Shalash has also been seen and then there's 'the man who may or may not be Taln') which leaves Chanarach, Vedel, Paliah and Battar's current whereabouts unknown. One more thing to keep our eyes peeled for in Oathvember: Hunt the Heralds. Where have we seen Kalak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, Watchcry said: Where have we seen Kalak? Most people think he's the man with Nale in the Prologues. This hasn't been confirmed though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 28 minutes ago, Calderis said: Most people think he's the man with Nale in the Prologues. This hasn't been confirmed though Technically it hasn't but by process of elimination it basically has to be. We know he's a Herald because he talks about how Ash is 'getting worse', how 'we' weren't supposed to be getting worse and that he's feeling worse just thinking about it. He can't be Jezrien from the context of the conversation and Taln was stuck on Braize at the time. That leaves Ishar (who in fairness we do know has been in contact with Nale) but if the chapter headers showing him are at all accurate he's got a distinctive appearance (and is visibly older) which Jasnah should have commented on, like she does with Nale's appearance. But she doesn't, so in the absence of any serious reason to think otherwise it's reasonable to assume that the mystery Herald is Kalak. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 @Weltall I had always assumed it was Kalak because he appeared submissive towards Nale, whereas all evidence seems to show Nale submitting to Ishar's word. Where did I miss a physical description of Ishar's? Because that portion of your logic seems to make it fairly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) We don't have a written description, we just have the busts that decorate the chapter headings. But Ishar sticks out for being depicted as balding and with an enormous beard. Assuming the artists got it right, either one on its own would merit comment from Jasnah. But I hadn't even thought of the way the two interact, given what we learn of Ishar in Edgedancer so that's a really good argument for the man being Kalak. Edited July 28, 2017 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 As it has been stated Nale has indeed taken back his as has the one who is calling himself stone sinew. The guilt of how they abandoned mankind and left them to suffer may well explain why most leave their blades behind. The pain of constantly being reminded of their betrayal might well be something that they want to stay away from hence the reason that they no longer desire to posses the honorblades. It is also possible that the blades being unbound and used by those who are not suppose to lead to the madness which consumes them. This may well explain the voices that haunted Szeth while he wielded the honorblade. Once the pact broke and the connection between them was severed their"divine qualities" may well have begun to turn against them leading to the corruption of Nale's sense of justice etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 38 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: As it has been stated Nale has indeed taken back his as has the one who is calling himself stone sinew Taln's Blade was never in the hands of the Stone Shamans, so there was no need to take it back. The fact that he appeared at the end of tWoK with a Shardblade that he drops and it doesn't vanish despite his having fallen unconscious is the strongest argument in my mind that he is really Taln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerald101 he/him Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 On 7/28/2017 at 9:18 AM, Nathrangking said: This may well explain the voices that haunted Szeth while he wielded the honorblade. Those voices would happen to any in-cosmere person who went through things like Szeth did. Quote BLIGHTSONG Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears? BRANDON SANDERSON Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes. BLIGHTSONG So it has to do with the spiritual realm? BRANDON SANDERSON Yea, mhmm, yea. Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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