Multi-shard Magic Systems

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Okay, something that I've been thinking about lately is what happens when two (or more, I guess) shards Invest in a planet together and how magic systems form in the first place due to shards' Investiture.

First, I wanna talk about the second of those two things. From what we've seen in both the books and from WoBs, it appears that creating a magic system is a side effect of Investing in a planet, though it is possible to control how the magic develops (e.g. Ruin's back entrance with hemalurgy). What I'm wondering is whether the magic system comes first, or if stuff like perpendicularities and/or godmetals come first. This idea was sparked by a discussion over on the Mistborn board where we discussing whether Trellium was a godmetal or not. If Trell, assuming they're a Shard, has Invested in Scadrial to the point that their Investiture has started forming godmetals, could it be assumed that they have a perpendicularity on Scadrial as well? And, better yet, could it be assumed that Trell has created another Metallic Art due to their Investing of Scadrial? And, would there be more Feruchemy-like magic systems, except between Trell/Preservation, Trell/Ruin, and all three? Of course, this probably isn't likely, because I'm sure Harmony would realize if another shard had been Investing themselves on Scadrial. Yet, that raises the question, how does Harmony not know what Trellium is? I guess it could be chalked up to him still being a relatively new Vessel, but it's still pretty suspicious. 

As for my first point, I brought that up because the difference between how the Metallic Arts developed on Scadrial and how the Rosharan magic systems developed seems very different. I'm not too sure about this one, but could it be that the difference is that Ruin/Preservation created their magic systems on purpose, while Honor/Cultivation created their magic systems on accident, as the side effect of Investing on Roshar? That also raises the question of voidbinding. If Odium is trapped on Braize (Braise?), how could he have Invested on Roshar to (presumably) create this magic system? Are there magic systems that are combinations of the different shards' Investitures?

Anyway, this is mostly rambling, not really any cohesive theory, but have fun picking it apart!  

[Calderis he/him]

First things first: This is just my opinion and I have nothing to support it. 

I think Scadrial is different because it was created but maybe not for the exact reasons you might assume. I'll come back to that in a bit.

So Honor and Cultivation were lovers, and came to Roshar together. Roshar already had native life bonding to spren, and so (at least I believe) had already established its own rudimentary magic system using Adonalsium's investiture using bonds as its focus (again, my opinion). Considering the nature of Honor and its use of bonds, I believe he intentionally chose Roshar due to that focus. 

So arriving at a world with a preexisting magic system, I believe that they were able to invest and expand that system, but not create an entirely new one. They were able to create new spren, and create stronger effects by those spren bonding new entities, but they were constrained by the existing system. 

I think this may be why Ati and Leras chose to create a new world in the first place. By creating a world, they made a blank slate that allowed them to create the magic with much more freedom than a preexisting system allowed. 

Now you have Trell arrive. Whatever Shard Trell ends up being, I think that now that Scadrial has an established magic system, they will be able to inject their investiture into it and make new metals, and therefore new effects, but they will also be constrained to work within the existing system. 

I've thought about this a lot, and it makes a lot of sense to me. I fully admit that there's no real basis for this beyond my head canon. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

First things first: This is just my opinion and I have nothing to support it. 

I think Scadrial is different because it was created but maybe not for the exact reasons you might assume. I'll come back to that in a bit.

So Honor and Cultivation were lovers, and came to Roshar together. Roshar already had native life bonding to spren, and so (at least I believe) had already established its own rudimentary magic system using Adonalsium's investiture using bonds as its focus (again, my opinion). Considering the nature of Honor and its use of bonds, I believe he intentionally chose Roshar due to that focus. 

So arriving at a world with a preexisting magic system, I believe that they were able to invest and expand that system, but not create an entirely new one. They were able to create new spren, and create stronger effects by those spren bonding new entities, but they were constrained by the existing system. 

I think this may be why Ati and Leras chose to create a new world in the first place. By creating a world, they made a blank slate that allowed them to create the magic with much more freedom than a preexisting system allowed. 

Now you have Trell arrive. Whatever Shard Trell ends up being, I think that now that Scadrial has an established magic system, they will be able to inject their investiture into it and make new metals, and therefore new effects, but they will also be constrained to work within the existing system. 

I've thought about this a lot, and it makes a lot of sense to me. I fully admit that there's no real basis for this beyond my head canon. 

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. Plus, I agree with the bonds being the focus on Roshar, mainly because I read someone else's theory on it awhile ago and really liked it (it might've been yours, but I think it was @Extesian who made it). And this definitely makes sense. I didn't word it very well in the OP, but I meant to imply that there'd be new parts of the magic system on Scadrial, not completely new ways to do magic on Scadrial. 

[Calderis he/him]

@StrikerEZ I'm probably reading too much into it, but I found a WoB that I think supports my idea of how the magic systems form. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#112

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EHYDE

So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

TAGS

spren ,  shards ,  honor ,  cultivation ,  odium

That last sentence seems to support my description. 

[+Extesian he/him]

On 7/8/2017 at 3:41 AM, StrikerEZ said:

Okay, something that I've been thinking about lately is what happens when two (or more, I guess) shards Invest in a planet together and how magic systems form in the first place due to shards' Investiture.

I shall give my thoughts  I agree with much of what you've said.

Quote

First, I wanna talk about the second of those two things. From what we've seen in both the books and from WoBs, it appears that creating a magic system is a side effect of Investing in a planet, though it is possible to control how the magic develops (e.g. Ruin's back entrance with hemalurgy). What I'm wondering is whether the magic system comes first, or if stuff like perpendicularities and/or godmetals come first.This idea was sparked by a discussion over on the Mistborn board where we discussing whether Trellium was a godmetal or not. If Trell, assuming they're a Shard, has Invested in Scadrial to the point that their Investiture has started forming godmetals, could it be assumed that they have a perpendicularity on Scadrial as well? And, better yet, could it be assumed that Trell has created another Metallic Art due to their Investing of Scadrial? And, would there be more Feruchemy-like magic systems, except between Trell/Preservation, Trell/Ruin, and all three? Of course, this probably isn't likely, because I'm sure Harmony would realize if another shard had been Investing themselves on Scadrial. Yet, that raises the question, how does Harmony not know what Trellium is? I guess it could be chalked up to him still being a relatively new Vessel, but it's still pretty suspicious. 

As for my first point, I brought that up because the difference between how the Metallic Arts developed on Scadrial and how the Rosharan magic systems developed seems very different. I'm not too sure about this one, but could it be that the difference is that Ruin/Preservation created their magic systems on purpose, while Honor/Cultivation created their magic systems on accident, as the side effect of Investing on Roshar?

I agree that the magic system comes from the planet itself. The first WoB below indicates that strongly, even though it's old, and there's been more I've seen I'm sure. It refers to the metallic powers being what the genetics and realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for. I don't know whether the system or perpendicularities/godmetals come first, but by the sound of it the godmetals are a result of the system; though I suspect perpendicularities would come first as they're a result of the initial investing in the planet. I pretty strongly believe Trell (or whoever) has not invested in Scadrial, but has its godmetal being imported, because of the other WoB indicating that complete investment in the world would be necessary, and even then Scadrial is unique. I also think based on both of those WoBs that if Trell completely invested in Scadrial, there would be not just godmetal but a new metal-based magic system, though how new or effective it is depends on the effect of it being a planet truly of Ruin and Preservation. But no way that's happening with Harmony knowing. (Unless that's the red haze  ). So I think Harmony doesn't know Trellium because it's imported, it has no connection to the planet and, well, it's metal. But yes, it seems clear that there will be some difference for any Shard investing, or bringing in their godmetal, because the planet is of Preservation and Ruin.

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KAIMIPONO (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

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QUESTION

If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a godmetal?

BRANDON SANDERSON

If another shard just came to visit, probably not.

QUESTION

If they brought a spren or-

BRANDON SANDERSON

If they came and completely invested the world, then things might start happening. But there's some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there's some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That's one of the big differences about what's going on there.

@Calderis I agree with all the things you've said, except that a new Shard investing will only make new metals, not a new system. I don't disagree, I'm just in two minds. I feel the WoB in support of your theory is mine and the WoB against it is the one you found  I think this WoB says that a new Shard investing DOES create a new magic system, as that's exactly what happened with Odium - voidbinding, a new system to add to the two that existed before he came, a new system even though the planet already had systems in place. Yeah it was confined to work within the type of magic systems there, so I expect it will be related to surgebinding and possibly fabrials, but it was a new system. I feel the comparable example for Scadrial would be that something new is added to Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. That should happen, rather than just new metals in the existing system - but what qualifies that is the WoB above that says there is a different effect from the fact that Scadrial is of Ruin and Preservation.

But yeah, I pretty much agree entirely, with the qualification of how we're viewing new magic systems, and what that means on a planet created by the existing Shards.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Extesian how did Trell create its godmetal then? Can metals like that be formed on other planets? Because if I got your post correctly, Trell hasn't invested in Scadrial, but has a godmetal anyway.

[Fezzik]

@Toaster Retribution, honor blades from Roshar are basically a godmetal