Atheism vs. Anti-theism

[Calderis he/him]

Considering topics have brought up my atheism, I wanted to start this thread for discussion purposes and to make my feelings clear. 

I am an atheist. As such I don't believe in a God, but there are many outspoken "atheists" who loudly and obnoxiously attack religion and attempt to undermine the foundations of religious beliefs. These anti-theists portray atheism in a very negative light. 

This is not atheism. As an atheist I am both content in my beliefs/lack thereof, and content to let others have their own beliefs as long as said beliefs are not causing direct harm. 

I was raised in a heavily religious family, and questioned those beliefs strongly from a young age. For a long time I considered myself agnostic, and over time that evolved to outright atheism. 

Anti-theists anger me greatly. To the point that when I speak of my atheism, I fear it will be assumed that I want to attack the beliefs of whomever I am speaking with, hence this thread. 

As with most belief structures, these anti-theists are an outspoken minority who do not represent the feelings of all of us. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Yeah, I agree with you. Anti-theists are definitely not atheists. Well, they technically are, but they're more about being against religion instead of having no religion. You worded it way better than I ever could, so thank you for that.

As for my personal beliefs, I honestly have no clue. I feel like I'm atheist, but I also really like the idea of there actually being some sort of God/afterlife. I don't think it's likely that there is an afterlife, but just thinking about that terrifies me. The idea of dying an de ceasing to exists terrifies me. But I will not except a religion just to ease my fears of death, unless I find one I truly believe in, which hasn't happened in yet.

[Calderis he/him]

When I still considered myself agnostic, I discovered this Marcus Aurelius quote, and it has always summed up my feelings rather well. 

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

[Luck Spren]

Upvoted!

[Chaos he/him]

Just as a note with all topics on religion: I am watching this very closely! Keep it civil

 

...Or else! 

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Just as a note with all topics on religion: I am watching this very closely! Keep it civil

 

...Or else! 

I completely understand. The last thing I want is a breakdown into anything hostile. I think in general there's far too much of that between atheism and believers, and between different beliefs in general. 

[Orlion Blight he/him]

19 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Just as a note with all topics on religion: I am watching this very closely! Keep it civil

 

...Or else! 

You're not the boss of me! Have at you! 

[+Extesian he/him]

@Calderis I appreciate anyone with a non-dogmatic belief system. I also love the Aurelius quote.

What I believe isn't very important, but my favorite belief system, what I'd like to believe in, is One. The idea that we're all fragments of One, born to have varying experiences that are eventually recombined into One, to better understand the universe. 

Your experience as a non-proselytizing atheist will be welcomed

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

@Calderis I appreciate anyone with a non-dogmatic belief system. I also love the Aurelius quote.

What I believe isn't very important, but my favorite belief system, what I'd like to believe in, is One. The idea that we're all fragments of One, born to have varying experiences that are eventually recombined into One, to better understand the universe. 

Your experience as a non-proselytizing atheist will be welcomed

I also am a fan of the long path.

I'm also a pretty big Jasnah fan if you hadn't guessed. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

One thing I like about this website is how civil it is. I have never seen things get to metaphorical blows. I have very strong religious beliefs, but I know that other people have the right and the privilege to have their own opinions and beliefs. So yeah. Love and peace everyone 

[Lightning he/him]

This topic is very dear to my heart.  To give some context, I believe in God and through personal experiences have come to know him better, and I want everyone else to similarly know the joy that comes from seeking him.  I also see the good many people do in varied religious or non-religious traditions.  For instance, I appreciate the sentiment expressed by Calderis, which I might sum up as "Be a builder not a demolisher."  I had a few further thoughts on the topic.  I hope people find them helpful.

1. Calderis, you wrote: "Anti-theists anger me greatly."  I understand that sentiment (believe me, I do!), but perhaps I can help turn that anger to something more productive -- understanding.  With understanding comes the ability to see why people act how they do, and often this allows us to respond in more helpful ways.  The key, you might be surprised, lies in what you said earlier, namely that you are "content to let others have their own beliefs as long as said beliefs are not causing direct harm."

Anti-theists believe that religion is a direct harm, because they believe it is a deception.  They believe it is the perpetuation of a lie.  In some cases they know, from their own personal experience, of harm done to themselves and to others, and of lies taught to them.  This is part of the reason they act so aggressively to tear down the institution that so harmed them, in their view.

I think that's one of the key reasons people often clash about religion.  They see things in such different ways.  The Jew sees male circumcision of infants as a sacred ceremony commanded by God, while atheists (and some theists) see it as direct physical harm.  The atheist sees teaching that there is no God as enlightening others, while the believer sees that as leading souls astray.

Remembering this context can often help us see one another more clearly.  And it takes a lot of work to step back since these issues are often some of the most poignant and emotional issues we deal with.  To give a personal example, it hurts me every time I hear someone casually use God's name as a swear-word, because I know that if I spoke that way it would be a despicable act of desecration.  I have to remember that those who do this are not me, and don't have the same experiences and beliefs that I do.  That doesn't mean I still don't like it.  It just means I can calmly say "Please don't use his name like that."

2. I like the Marcus Aurelius quote.  It has many good points:  Live a good life!  God is only worthy of worship if he is a benevolent and righteous being himself.

It also implicitly raises the question: Why bother seeking God in this life, if [as we hope] we will find out in the next life all about him?

Let me give a few reasons I think it is a worthy goal, perhaps even the most important endeavor we can perform in this life, to seek to know God.

First, it is difficult to live a good life, and we need all the help we can get.  I can't tell you how many times I've been impressed to make changes in my life, sometimes being given direct advice, especially with respect to helping my children.

Second, as we come to know God we can have peace and surety.  As others mentioned above, the thought of ceasing to exist is terrifying.  The current cosmology put forward by modern science is that the universe will eventually expand to the point where atoms cannot stick together.  That's a scary thought!   All human records gone.  All life gone.  To put it in cosmere terminology, it is as if science is saying "Ruin will eventually win." There is real hope in believing and knowing. 

-----------------------

To sum up:  I appreciate this topic, and the desire to build stronger bonds with each other.  Even if we don't agree on everything, I believe we can find important places where we do agree.  And even when we don't agree on things we think are the (most!) important things, I hope we can recognize that this does not mean the other person is therefore evil.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Lightning

[Calderis he/him]

@Lightning thank you. 

I agree with you for the most part. I agree that most anti-theists believe in what they are doing as necessary. In the case of personal harm though I believe that this is an over reaction rooted in both bitterness, and the inability to separate the harm inflicted by individuals and/or particular subsets of belief, from the concept of belief as a whole. 

I'm in a minority among atheists, in that I see the manner in which many anti-theists and atheists profess science as a religion. They rely on faith and dogma in direct contrast to the very negatives they spout about religion.

Science is, and should always be, changing as our understanding of the universe expands. Professing science as an inviable and unalterable truth, as many use it, is counter to the very tenents they claim to have espoused. 

If, with the emergence of new evidence, the existence of a creator was proven, science would accept that evidence and move forward as always, with very little change. I do not think that many of the people who try to use science to undermine religion would readily accept that finding.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Calderis

[Lightning he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

In the case of personal harm though I believe that this is an over reaction rooted in both bitterness, and the inability to separate the harm inflicted by individuals and/or particular subsets of belief, from the concept of belief as a whole. 

Yes!  I would have given your post 10 up votes just for that sentence.  (The rest was great too!)

[Erunion he/him]

@Calderis, @Lightning - thanks for the reminder why I love this forum. This is fantastic. 

Also, if you followed the religion thread at all, you'll see I very strongly agree with lightning here. Great perspective and topic Calderis !

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Erunion said:

@Calderis, @Lightning - thanks for the reminder why I love this forum. This is fantastic. 

Also, if you followed the religion thread at all, you'll see I very strongly agree with lightning here. Great perspective and topic Calderis !

I didn't even realize there was a religion thread. I'll have to check that out.

[Erunion he/him]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I didn't even realize there was a religion thread. I'll have to check that out.

It's on the second page of general discussion I think - we had some great convo's but it's died down a bit

[Taeshi Vei she/her]

Reading all that was wonderful!  You all understand that religion, or the lack of it, is based off of personal belief, including experience, logic, and also simply feelings.  I myself am very devout, but those things that you've said ... I don't disagree.  You've thought through this with reason, and you're very respective of others' beliefs.  Thank you.

Please don't think negatively on this, but here's what Brandon says about religion.  He's LDS, and so am I.  You don't have to read the pages, but this just shows him explaining why he believes in this church, along with how it affects his writing.  It just made me happy, that's all.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/249

And this is what he says about faith vs reason.   He explains it very well.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/367

[Nathrangking he/him]

I am a very religious person who is more and more shocked by the way that people twist and corrupt things from religion itself to Atheism. Every one should have the right to believe or not without being attacked or abused for it. It seems to me tat Anti-Theists and religious fundamentalists who attack others for how they practice or don't are really two sides of the same despicable coin. All thoughts and systems that are not theirs must be crushed because they threaten to... what exactly add a dimension of realism to the world to allow free expression and variety to exist? There is evil and bad in every group no matter how they try to deny it or hide it. They can couch it however they want, but hatred is what causes humankind to self destruct and kill. Understanding among all has to be key if humanity as a whole is to survive and grow. Each person has things that they can learn and appreciate about others. I do not foist my religion as a sign of my superiority or use it as a weapon to hurt others. Understanding and a willingness to learn will always be key.