Sazed vs Marsh WoA

[Storming Radiant he/him]

Hey, I don't know if this has already been asked, I tries searchimg for this but came up with nothing, so I'll just ask it.

Near the end of WoA, when Sazed fights Marsh, Marsh pushes the pouch containing Sazed's metalminds into his stomach,  thus giving him the opportunity to use them. How was Marsh able push the metalminds? I thought you can't push an invested metal, and those rings obviously were...

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Storming Radiant said:

I thought you can't push an invested metal

This statement is not actually true. With strong enough power, you can push anything. Vin via the Mists can pull TLR's bracers after all. TLR moved a planet. It's all relative to how much Investiture is in the object and interfering with it.

Sazed's Metalminds were small rings I believe. They probably didn't have that much Investiture within them. Marsh was simply strong enough to push despite that interference.

[Storming Radiant he/him]

17 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

With strong enough power, you can push anything.

I know, I just didn't think Matsh's pushing ability was too powerful.  He got ot through hemallurgy, and that has power lost in the process

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 minutes ago, Storming Radiant said:

He got it through Hemalurgy, and that has power lost in the process

Inquisitors didn't all have the same set of spikes, and for all we know they may have skipped something useless like A-Gold for Pushing Power when spiking Marsh. Perhaps they had a spare A-Steel spike laying around from an inquisitor that died of old age. I doubt he had an A-Duralumin Spike at the time, but we can't say that he didn't because old Inquisitors did have them.

Multiple power losses through several Inquisitors could make a Duralumin push stronger than normal, but not too strong. They could have recently decided to restructure what spikes they have to be more combat-oriented through subtle influence of Ruin. Marsh could've added another spike to himself sometime during WoA, either of his own accord or via Ruin's actions. Heck, Marsh may have even gotten to choose before/during his original spiking

There are a dozen potential explanations for this, and we have nothing to prove/disprove any of them with.

Edited June 20, 2017 by The One Who Connects
System doesn't like "he||" apparently

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Multiple power losses through several Inquisitors could make a Duralumin push stronger than normal, but not too strong. They could have recently decided to restructure what spikes they have to be more combat-oriented through subtle influence of Ruin. Marsh could've added another spike to himself sometime during WoA, either of his own accord or via Ruin's actions. Heck, Marsh may have even gotten to choose before/during his original spiking

There are a dozen potential explanations for this, and we have nothing to prove/disprove any of them with.

It also doesn't necessarily require extra power via hemalurgy. Wax pushes on Wayne's metal minds on several occasions, which shows that a person with a normal amount of power could do this, it may just have a slight resistance. 

[Kurkistan he/him]

Mod note: split off the rest of the discussion into it's own thread at Oversleep's request.

[Oversleep]

Only fully filled metalminds are fully resistant to Pushing.

14 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

It also doesn't necessarily require extra power via hemalurgy. Wax pushes on Wayne's metal minds on several occasions, which shows that a person with a normal amount of power could do this, it may just have a slight resistance. 

And Inquisitors usually probably had multiple Allomantic steel and Allomantic iron spikes; they are said to be stronger in those two than regular Allomancers.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Oversleep
First sentence was edited to clarify for future generations of Sharders :P

[Kurkistan he/him]

10 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Only fully filled metalminds are resistant to Pushing.

Where do we know this from? In SoS (chapter 7) Wax assesses that some bits of metal aren't metalminds by Pushing on them:

Quote

[Wax] narrowed his yes, then glanced at the bracers on the table nearby. One jumped, then fell off the table. Pushed by his unseen Allomantic ability.
He grunted. "Those aren't metalminds," he said [...]
"How can you be so sure, Waxillium?" Marasi said.
"It takes more effort to Push on real metalminds," Waxillium said, pointing. "And that man is too obvious [...]"

I doubt he'd be so certain if only 100% filled metalminds are resistant to Pushing.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Kurkistan

[Oversleep]

Just now, Kurkistan said:

Where do we know this from? In SoS (chapter 7) Wax assesses that some bits of metal aren't metalminds by Pushing on them:

I meant they can't be Pushed at all - the metalminds filled to the hilt don't even register in metalsight. Those moderately filled are Pushable but they indeed do resist more.

Wax has experience with Pushing on metalminds so he can probably assess by their reaction to given strength of the Push if they're Invested or not.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Ah. That's interesting. The only example of a completely-unpushable metalmind I can recall is the Bands: Do you recall the source for the general rule that completely-full metalminds are unpushable?

[Oversleep]

3 minutes ago, Kurkistan said:

Ah. That's interesting. The only example of a completely-unpushable metalmind I can recall is the Bands: Do you recall the source for the general rule that completely-full metalminds are unpushable?

The unkeyed goldmind taken off of Set. Wax remarks he has to flare steel to even see a faintest line pointing to it.

Since we know that the more Invested something is the more resistant to Pushing it is, it's reasonable assumption.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Oversleep

[Kurkistan he/him]

Ah, I'd forgotten that.

So from this I'm getting the sense that it's a matter of degrees more so that there being any hard limits. The Bands are probably the most Invested object on Scadrial, and a stuffed-to-the-gills metalmind is probably pretty Invested as well. But yeah probably a fully-filled metalmind is functionally "fully resistant" to pushing (you might want to call out your EDIT so future generations aren't confused) for all intents and purposes.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

As a small aside to this discussion, someone pointed out to me that the only people who have referred to Metalminds as "full" are us. We've asked Brandon about how a full Metalmind would react to something a few times and he's answered without correcting us, but he has never referred to one as being full.

The person who pointed this out to me even had a different idea of how they get filled than I did, where it becomes harder to fill as time went on, not actually having a "cap", which I thought was fascinating. Don't get me wrong, I'm on the side of them being able to be filled, but it's worth pointing out until we get confirmation that they can be.

Edited June 20, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

The person who pointed this out to me even had a different idea of how they get filled than I did, where it becomes harder to fill as time went on, not actually having a "cap", which I thought was fascinating. Don't get me wrong, I'm on the side of them being able to be filled, but it's worth pointing out until we get confirmation that they can be.

My signing question to Brandon at Ad Astra was about what it means for an object to be considered invested. At the end, I asked him whether there was a cap on full ("saturated") an object could get with investiture, and he said there was, and mentioned metalminds. I'll try to find the transcript of the question.

Quote

Q: What does it mean for an object to be considered “Invested”?

B: That is a matter of some discussion among scientists. Usually it means to most of them, like a...Let me see if I can explain this. So, all things are built from Investiture, right? When they’re using “Invested”, they’re talking about kind of like saturating a solution, in that, yes it’s being built out of this material, but now there’s more it in. It’s a little bit like supersaturation, but not quite.

Q: It’s kind of like more Investiture in the Spirit Web or the Cognitive…

B: Yeah, more than just the creation of it. There’s lingering Investiture that could be drawn out, or stuffed in.

Q: But there are limits, right?

B: There are limits. We kind of run into that kind of thing with Feruchemy a little bit. But yes.

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[+Extesian he/him]

These three WoBs also indicate there is a limit. And if a full one can block a shardblade I'd be surprised if out can be Pushed. None of it's decisive though. 

Quote

Q: Could a filled (fully feruchemical charge) metalmind block a Shardblade (or at least, resist a bit)?
 
A: Yes, it could. Excellent question.

Quote

Q: What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?
 
A: If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted it down.)
This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO.
 
Q: So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the Investiture? Or, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can you retrieve it if you change to a different allotrope?
 
A: I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

Quote

HEROWANNABE

How about a metalmind? A feruchemy metalmind that is "full."

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is going to be middle of the realm. Generally easier than, for instance, a shardblade, which is going to be very hard.

Spool's is probably the best I've seen. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

These three WoBs also indicate there is a limit

Those are the three that were used as an example where he doesn't correct us, but doesn't actually say that. I figured that there was a cap, but given how much nitpicking we do on here, him not saying it holds more weight than it should sometimes.

---

Edit, ok, so I misread one of those WoBs. Reading Comprehension probably wasn't my specialty in High School

Edited June 21, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Oversleep]

51 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Those are the three that were used as an example where he doesn't correct us, but doesn't actually say that. I figured that there was a cap, but given how much nitpicking we do on here, him not saying it holds more weight than it should sometimes.

In the second one Extesian provided it's Brandon who uses this exact words:

Quote

Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted it down.)

Combined with what we know and Spool's WoB I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there is no cap.