Location-dependence of soulstamps

[+Extesian he/him]

I think this is the first Q&A I've done, but I don't have enough to make a theory on it, or to add to my realmatic misunderstanding list.

I've seen people say that a stamp will fail if an object is taken off Sel. Do we know this? Yeah the Dor is location dependent. But a stamp infuses the target with investiture and then (I believe in the case of living things) wears out and must be replaced. I agree that the stamp won't take if it's not applied on Sel. But if it's applied on Sel then the target goes offworld do we have any knowledge that it would fail immediately? Or just once the stamp wears out? Does it make a difference if it's non-living? That is, if a stamped non-living object doesn't need re-stamping, would it fail at all off-world? And in the case of a living thing, would you need to return to Sel each time you need to re-stamp?

Realmatically, if a stamp needs a constant influx of investiture to maintain the change, a stamp should only continue to work on Sel. But it feels to me like a stamp gives a one off influx or investiture, which should mean that once you stamp something on Sel, the stamp will hold even off Sel.

Does anyone have canon or WoB material that answers this one way or the other?

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Realmatically, if a stamp needs a constant influx of investiture to maintain the change, a stamp should only continue to work on Sel.

That's how Selish magic works. Investiture constantly flows in from Cognitive Realm through the shape. In the case of Forgery, it maintains the change.

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Does anyone have canon or WoB material that answers this one way or the other?

Quote

Viper
So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

Brandon Sanderson
That's correct.

source

Now I wonder... so far the only magic system that we know of that allows you to constantly draw Investiture regardless of where you are is Allomancy.
If you could hack Forgery to fuel it with Allomancy, would it work off-Sel too? I'd be surprised if it didn't...

Edited June 7, 2017 by Oversleep

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Thanks Oversleep that's exactly what I was after. I hadn't seen an explicit WoB. Why, then, would a living thing need to be re-stamped though if it's a constant influx of investiture rather than a one-off change?

The way I understood it was that (in the case of humans) were already constantly changing in small ways, through aging, opinions, memories. Our souls are in a constant state of Flux, which wears away at the stamps anchor in the spiritual.

An inanimate object in contrast is remarkably static. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Thanks Oversleep that's exactly what I was after. I hadn't seen an explicit WoB. Why, then, would a living thing need to be re-stamped though if it's a constant influx of investiture rather than a one-off change?

Certainly seems like allomancy could provide that flow with an appropriate hack, I agree with that. A soulstamp also doesn't require much investiture so perhaps a few spheres would power one for a while but for one that lasts indefinitely (with hack), allomancy makes sense. 

[Oversleep]

18 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Why, then, would a living thing need to be re-stamped though if it's a constant influx of investiture rather than a one-off change?

What Calderis said:

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

humans are already constantly changing in small ways, through aging, opinions, memories. Our souls are in a constant state of Flux, which wears away at the stamps anchor in the spiritual.

An inanimate object in contrast is remarkably static. 

Although a bad stamp may temporarily take on inanimate objects. It certainly is related to how accurate the stamp is.

18 minutes ago, Extesian said:

A soulstamp also doesn't require much investiture

Actually Forgery is using tons of Investiture. I have seen it stated before but I still don't know where this belief that Forgery is light on Investiture usage comes from.

Quote

Just one thing to keep in mind with Soulstamps is that, anything that does this...rewriting your Spirit Web, like, requires Investiture. A lot of Investiture. For instance, what Shai can do is really cool, but what an Elantrian can do is gonna look a lot more dramatic, right? Shooting a column of fire, you would say which takes more power, making the wall have flowers on it or shooting a column of fire? Making the wall have flowers takes a lot more Investiture. Its a lot easier to pull off some dramatic effects with others, but the actual changing of the soul...So just keep in mind the extent, right? This is why you dont see Shai Forging so the whole building disappears. Which is not outside of reason for a couple of Elantrians with the right program to put into place. But they could blow it up, essentially, thats what they would do.

source

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Oversleep

[+Extesian he/him]

3 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

What Calderis said:

Although a bad stamp may temporarily take on inanimate objects. It certainly is related to how accurate the stamp is.

Actually Forgery is using tons of Investiture. I have seen it stated before but I still don't know where this belief that Forgery is light on Investiture usage comes from.

 

Re: the amount of investiture in forgery, I've seen conflicting things here. How do you explain this one?

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

A soul-stamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of investiture going on in a soulstamp.

I guess the difference could be that the soulstamp itself doesn't hold a lot of investiture but, like metals in alomancy, forms a channel for a lot of investiture? Is that the idea?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I guess the difference could be that the Soulstamp itself doesn't hold a lot of investiture but, like metals in Allomancy, forms a channel for a lot of investiture? Is that the idea?

Unless there is something more definitive, I feel that the distinction here is not "what," but when. From the WoB posted by Oversleep:

Quote

Making the wall have flowers takes a lot more Investiture. Its a lot easier to pull off some dramatic effects with others, but the actual changing of the soul...

The change itself will require a lot of Investiture, but once it is changed, all the stamp is really doing is maintaining the status quo. Would it be so hard to believe that Soulstamps use less Investiture to keep the change in place than they do to make the change in the first place? A magical application of "inertia," so to speak.

This could even end up as an additional reason why they need to be renewed on living beings(not that the system needs another reason), since the lowered Investiture would be even less effective due to the fact that humans are always in flux.

Edited June 7, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[+Extesian he/him]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Unless there is something more definitive, I feel that the distinction here is not "what," but when. From the WoB posted by Oversleep:

The change itself will require a lot of Investiture, but once it is changed, all the stamp is really doing is maintaining the status quo. Would it be so hard to believe that Soulstamps use less Investiture to keep the change in place than they do to make the change in the first place?

This could even end up as an additional reason why they need to be renewed on living beings(not that the system needs another reason), since the lowered Investiture would be even less effective due to the fact that humans are always in flux.

Not at all hard to believe, that's the most sensible explanation for WoBs that indicate different things. I was just explaining where the idea of low investiture comes from but yeah it could definitely make sense that the initial change requires a lot while maintaining it doesn't. Similar to how a Returned needs a ton of investiture to Return but only a bit to stay alive. Either way my initial point for that was about how much investiture is required to maintain a soulstamped object, not create one, so that would match what I said about it not requiring much. 

I feel this is like metals in the end, the soulstamp itself is not invested particularly, it's a gateway to investiture, so yeah soulstamping requires a lot to change a soul, but this doesn't mean that either the soulstamp itself, or the soulstamped object are heavily invested, nor that maintaining that change requires a lot of investiture. Happy to be corrected further though, TES is the book I haven't read in the longest so my realmatic knowledge of it is much lower than for most other systems. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

I was just explaining where the idea of low investiture comes from but [...] Either way my initial point for that was about how much investiture is required to maintain a soulstamped object, not create one, so that would match what I said about it not requiring much. 

My misunderstanding then, I thought you were asking for an explanation of contradicting accounts, rather than pointing out the origin of said contradiction.

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I feel this is like metals in the end, the soulstamp itself is not invested particularly, it's a gateway to investiture, so yeah soulstamping requires a lot to change a soul, but this doesn't mean that either the soulstamp itself, or the soulstamped object are heavily invested, nor that maintaining that change requires a lot of investiture.

I can get behind that, since it makes a lot of sense. I haven't read TES in ages either actually, maybe I should do that..

[Oversleep]

34 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I guess the difference could be that the soulstamp itself doesn't hold a lot of investiture but, like metals in alomancy, forms a channel for a lot of investiture? Is that the idea?

Yeah, I see it like... like Feruchemy. You can draw lots of Investiture from ironmind but you won't get (probably) more Invested, only much heavier.

The metal in question doesn't get much Investiture from the stamp, however there is a lot of Investiture used up to maintain the change.

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I feel this is like metals in the end, the soulstamp itself is not invested particularly, it's a gateway to investiture, so yeah soulstamping requires a lot to change a soul, but this doesn't mean that either the soulstamp itself, or the soulstamped object are heavily invested, nor that maintaining that change requires a lot of investiture. Happy to be corrected further though, TES is the book I haven't read in the longest so my realmatic knowledge of it is much lower than for most other systems. 

I don't think you even need to travel off world for a parallel. The stamp is an Aon that isn't activated until it's pressed into something. At which point the Dor pours in and changes the soul in a burst of investiture. 

Once the soul and the stamp match, the investiture is slowed to a trickle for maintenance, because the pathways it opened for the investiture are closed off once the two match. It's almost like the stamp uses itself for a form of reverse erosion, allowing investiture through only in places that differ from it, and once the differences are gone the Dor can't flow in. 

Hmmm... That works I think, a soulstamp that is too far off from plausibility would try to erode too much of the soul away, and so couldn't actually anchor itself.