Jeckal he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) So I had a question about the nature of Cognitive Shadows. I've seen Brandon compare them to a concept of ghosts, however, ghosts in mythology are often just an echo or residual energy of the dead, not the actual consciousness of the dead themselves, so I am wondering if this is the case for a Cognitive Shadow as well.. I get that they are created when someone gains enough investiture in life, but is the Cognitive Shadow the actual consciousness of the person? Or is it just an echo/copy created when they died? The fact that the Stormfather is considered a Cognitive Shadow is what makes me ask, because he seems to describe himself as a separate entity of Tanavast/Honor in talking to Dalinar, and he is frequently called a Spren. To me the Stormfather sounds more like a copy of Tanavast/Honor that has been corrupted into a spren by what people 'think' of him, but I suppose that could have happened to the actual Tanavast too. In either case though, I'm also curious if say, Jasnah for example died while physically in Shadesmar, would a cognitive shadow just pop up were her body died or does her body just combine with her mental self so they'd both die at once? Sorry for the rambling question! *EDIT* Last time I was here the Cosmere QA section didn't exist I don't think, so it didn't occur to me to put this there when clearly it should be, whoops! Edited June 2, 2017 by Jeckal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 Hmm...that's kind of an interesting question. I'm not quite sure. From what I've gathered, it seems like people exist in all three Realms, but I'm not sure if their Cognitive selves are actually them or if it is just an echo of them. I wanna say it's somewhere in the middle, but leaning more towards actually being them, because an echo would be less coherent than it actually being the person, and we can tell from a certain someone who died that it doesn't seem to be that way. That's just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 My personal opinion is that in most cases the Cognitive shadow is the actual person. When a person dies their tie to the physical is severed and the body remains behind as a corpse. We know that something of the spiritual framework remains behind as well. So I think the Cognitive aspect, the part that we see move "beyond" after death, is the actual person as we think of it. When someone's Cognitive aspect is sufficiently suffused with investiture, they are able to resist the pull to the Beyond allowing them to stay in the Cognitive Realm, and stay tied to their spiritual aspect. If they are able to restore their connection to the physical realm, they can continue to exist in all realms. In the instance of the storm father... It's complicated. Because it's not just Tanavast's shadow or the stormfather. It's both. The stormfather existed prior to Honor and Cultivation coming. Tanavast's shadow merged with a preexisting entity and changed them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeckal he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 Thank you both for your answers! I think your both probably right, I think also for me personally its more satisfying if it is the actual person and a continuation of consciousness. Calderis your thoughts on the Stormfather make total sense. Is that your own speculation or is that a WoB? Either way I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 It's covered in a few different WoBs and I'm trying to find both, for now there's this one. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097#21 Quote QUESTION (PARAPHRASED) So what happens when Shards die? BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive shadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody. FOOTNOTE In this case, shardholder means vessel. TAGS shards , cognitive shadows , stormfather , vessel I'm trying to find one where he talks about the stormfather preexisting and failing. I'll keep looking and come back, but it's not just my thoughts here. I've seen it and I know it's been discussed at length here before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRyan he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeckal said: So I had a question about the nature of Cognitive Shadows. I've seen Brandon compare them to a concept of ghosts, however, ghosts in mythology are often just an echo or residual energy of the dead, not the actual consciousness of the dead themselves, so I am wondering if this is the case for a Cognitive Shadow as well.. I get that they are created when someone gains enough investiture in life, but is the Cognitive Shadow the actual consciousness of the person? Or is it just an echo/copy created when they died? Excellent question! There is a WoB (word of Brandon) where he talks about how this is a highly debated question in the Cosmere. Some scholars will tell you that the actual person is the Cognitive Shadow while others will say it is merely an echo. Brandon himself has not, as far as I can tell, definitively answered the question as he seems content to allow people to believe what they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 2, 2017 Report Share Posted June 2, 2017 So I've found plenty of things about the storms pre-dating Honor... But nothing about the Stormfather himself. Feeling crazy again. Bah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeckal he/him Posted June 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 I did a bit of digging on WoBs as well, and it definitely seems like, for the most part, Cognitive Shadows 'are' the continuous consciousness of a person, at least in the cases of people like Kelsier and I'd assume Szeth. However Cognitive Shadow is a bit of an ambiguous term, and I think some of the things scholars in the Cosmere would call Cognitive Shadows are merely echos. Brandon also confirms there is an afterlife, and he doesn't quite consider still being alive in one of the realms it, he considers that not 'quite' dead by the sound of it, which again I think implies a continuation of consciousness. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#52 Quote QUESTION Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds? BRANDON SANDERSON The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. ‘Cognitive Shadow’ is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something, that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then. You’re tied to the thing you’re Connected to. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1099#1 Quote BRANDON SANDERSON So, it has implications, but they're not exactly the ones that you're assuming. In the Cosmere, there is dead, and mostly dead, okay? And this has been shown several times. So, once someone dies, there is a period before they transition. Right? Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3 and so most of the implications are before transition. Does that makes sense? Post transition, you're going to have to ask the philosophers, and the theologians, who are the ones that, that talk about the.. that. So there's an afterlife, and there's an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for the after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1082#1 Quote BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 @Jeckal yep. It's why I personally view it the way I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 Here's the two best I know Quote Q: You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? A: Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. Q: Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? A: No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. Quote Q: Cognitive shadows have been a popular topic recently, so I figure I can try to clarify some things about them: When you say that the Returned are cognitive shadows, are they shadows of the people they were pre-death? In other words, is Lightsong Llarimar's cognitive shadow stapled to his body with a Divine Breath? We've seen cognitive shadows in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Kelsier), and in the Physical (Returned, Shades, Heralds (kind of, sort of)). Is it alright to refer to shadows both with and without a body as "cognitive shadows"? Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture? A: Point one: Yes, they are. (The evidence in the books is Lightsong obtaining some of the memories his pre-death soul had.) Point two: Yes. The shadow is the spirit, though, so there is some distinction. Point three: Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm. Q: Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)? Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that? A: RAFO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeckal he/him Posted June 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 @Calderis I think I found the WoB that at least somewhat implies the Stormfather existed in some form before Honor's splintering: https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cs5msy4/ Quote Q: Eshonai mentions that the Stormfather (rather, the Rider of Storms to her) was one of the spren who betrayed the listeners for the humans. Was the Rider of Storms around before Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar? Is the Stormfather composed partly of Cultivation's Investiture? A: RAFO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 22 hours ago, Jeckal said: @Calderis I think I found the WoB that at least somewhat implies the Stormfather existed in some form before Honor's splintering: https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cs5msy4/ We know the Stormfather was around before Honor's splintering as it nahel bonded in the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 22 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: We know the Stormfather was around before Honor's splintering as it nahel bonded in the past. There's the thing that was nagging at me that I couldn't quite think of. Thank you Spool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeckal he/him Posted June 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 Are we sure that the desolations started before Honor was splintered? The timeline in my head was always Honor sacrificed itself to trick odium to get it stuck in the system, making a pact with the heralds knowing he was going to his death to protect Roshar from what are presumably Odium's attempt to escape. Although that doesn't fit with Dalinar's visions, assuming the almighty was alive during the events portrayed in the visions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects he/him Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 16 minutes ago, Jeckal said: The timeline in my head was always Honor sacrificed itself to trick odium to get it stuck in the system, making a pact with the heralds knowing he was going to his death to protect Roshar from what are presumably Odium's attempt to escape. For the second time today: "Honor was still alive when the Heralds did their thing" Quote Question Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did? Brandon Sanderson The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing. They abandoned the Oathpact after the Final Desolation, and Honor was still alive at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 54 minutes ago, Jeckal said: Are we sure that the desolations started before Honor was splintered? The timeline in my head was always Honor sacrificed itself to trick odium to get it stuck in the system, making a pact with the heralds knowing he was going to his death to protect Roshar from what are presumably Odium's attempt to escape. Although that doesn't fit with Dalinar's visions, assuming the almighty was alive during the events portrayed in the visions As The One Who Connects said, but to add on to that: Quote QUESTION Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance? BRANDON SANDERSON I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance. [Source] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeckal he/him Posted June 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Ah, thank you both for clearing that up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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