Two Hypotheses before WoR

[Valnurath]

Note: I feel I should add that this topic is covering things in the WoK, so if you've not read it, and while I don't believe I've said/hit on very anything specific, I guess it could be considered spoiler-ish for WoK. (Now in the comments there are also some brief WoR spoilers pertaining to the revealed chapters.)

 

So I've been watching this board on and off for about a year, and the comment section of the Tor Re-reads, but I've not really seen either of my two ideas come up. Since WoR is coming out soon, and I wanted to post the ideas before that happened:

 

(Edited version: I've heavily edited the original version of this post, or at least the second point of it. I've included things like page references to the Hard Back edition of the book, and some explanations of my thought process at those points, so that it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to force a random idea, without any reasoning. Since this more then doubled the original length of the post, I've included a summary at the top of that point so no need to read the lengthy amount of text that follows it, unless you want to.)

 

#1

"Unite Them" (This one is more then likely moot, due to more recent reveals. So can skip, but I'm leaving it, since there's no reason to toss it out completely, and I still like it as plot point, even if it's considerably less likely to apply to this particular one.)

 

This one has likely been voiced and I missed it, or it's not popularly followed, but I've always thought it possible that it meant Lighteyes and Darkeyes. Got this impression since eye-type is important to Alethi, and a rather large portion of the book seems to focus on Kaladin's experiences that divide him from them. Since Kaladin's experiences are part of our view into the world, I figure that his experiences, perhaps not the specifics, cannot be unique, so there's this rather large gulf of fear/dislike/envy/etc (the usual class warfare mix) that's been brewing, and not many people seem to be addressing it.

 

Doesn't seem healthy for an army, or a people to me, and like it could be an obstacle to all kinds of things. Or a weapon/edge that Kaladin/his supporters could employ to gain him a larger following among the warcamps. (Kal doesn't seem to fond of the hero worship, so unless he deemed it necessary, it would probably be done to/for him by the bridge crew/other supporters.) Or alternately used as a weapon to divide the Alethi into a civil war more chaotic, and likely hate filled, then a war between princes. (Darkeyes really don't get why they're fighting eachother for the Lighteyes back at home, but they'd know why they're fighting the Lighteyes, and they would seem to have many good reasons for it.)

 

#2

Kaladin's Lashings

(Cleaned up this section, so that it is no longer the mess I wrote at midnight, and double checked the Ars Arcanum, and actual chapters for quotes.)

 

Summary of Idea:

My thought is that Kaladin subconsciously lashed his throwing knives to his targets (generally their eye, or face), greatly improving his aim/likelihood of hitting his target.

 

He makes a number of rather bold throws, given that it is never stated in the book that he spent time training to throw knives, which is with the spear opposite of how the book approaches his ability with the spear. He seems quite good, and it's my understanding that throwing knives is no easy task, let alone some of the ones he is shown managing. Additionally his knives are never described as throwing knives, yet normal knives do not work well for throwing to my understanding. I mean you might hit something, but hitting multiple people in the eye/aiming for the eye seems ambitious without the correct type of knife – unless you just seem to never miss.

Additionally we never see him use or think about using knives in the present timeline, just the spear, despite his apparent ability with knives, and the fact he kept two strapped to his spear in Amaram's army. Seems strange he'd never so much as think about them.

That's, in a nutshell, why I think he's lashed his knives to his targets with the basic lashing.

 

Much Verboseness:

Alright, so I'm not great on which is the Full and which is the reverse off the top my head (full being the sticking things together, and reverse being the one that attracts, if my memory is working properly), but we know for sure of the 2, but people don't seem to think he's done the basic lashing (changing an objects point of gravitation(which way it falls) if i'm getting these right).

 

We know Kaladin can do the Full and Reverse lashings, but it'd not been shown definitively that he does the basic lashing, and many believe that he has not yet done so. The important part of the basic lashing is that the user changes the gravitational anchor of an item (that they're touching), to a point of their choosing. My thought is that he is using the basic lashing in conjunction with this throwing knives, subconsciously, improving his aim and likelihood of hitting his target (possibly considerably).

 

The first time we see Kaladin using his knives is p. 44 of the hard back (6^th full paragraph a little more then halfway down the page), “Even as that man fell, Kaladin reached up and flipped a nkife from one of the sheaths tied about his spear. His hand snapped, knife flashing and hitting the thigh of a second foe.” This particular usage of the knife is not that spectacular, and could be put down to him having good aim at close distances and a strong throw. Next time we see Kaladin use a knife is next paragraph, with the line, “A fourth man fell with a knife to the eye.” It doesn't state whether he threw or shoved the knife however. Also unfortunately it's later shown, from Kaladin's perspective, that Cenn mightn't have been the most reliable narrator, being caught up in the chaos and in pain, so we don't get any good evidence of anything out of the ordinary yet. That is unless of course he threw the knife that went through someone's eye, as that's a rather precise shot.

 

Page 46 the instance of knife throwing occurs, about midway down the page describing the fight with an opposing battalionlord, “He impassively regarded those who fought nearby. Then one of Kaladin's knives took him in the right eye.” Again Cenn's narration fails to mention if it's a throw, but I've always interpreted each use of the knives as Kaladin throwing them – perhaps a bad presumption, but it seems apt given that the only time the use is described at first is as a throw, and then nothing other then how effectively he dispatched foes with the knives. This leads me to assume we're mentally supposed to fill in the gap and assume he's throwing again since there would be opportunities for describing shoving a knife into a person that are skipped (but not skipped when it comes to the spear hits/kills). One thing Cenn's narration does make clear is that the Brightlord's helmet was “open-fronted” (5^th full paragraph – the one before the above quote).

 

In chapter 47, page 668, the events depicted on p.44 are recounted by Kaladin. Only the first throw is mentioned (Beginning at about halfway down the page, right after the single line stating “No.”), though it is mentioned on the next page that he is handed back his knives.

More interesting is Kaladin's recollection about how he feels at this time: “He could not be stopped, not when he felt like this. When he had the energy of defending the fallen, the power of standing to protect one of his men.” Then the next paragraph down: “Sweat trickled from his brow, cooled by the breeze. Odd. There hadn't been a breeze before. Now it seemed to envelop him.”

 

Knowing what we do by the end of the book, it sounds like at the very least Syl was already binding with him at this point, making it possible that he could be performing the basic lashing with his knives.

 

Next Kaladin recounts throwing his knife into the brightlord's eye. Page 670, “The man dropped with a knife to the eye; his face was unprotected.” It's once again not stated that he threw the knife, but it seems to stand to reason. Given that he follows up with the spear, and why bother with getting into position to thrust a knife home, when you've a spear that can do the same work at greater distance. And once again Kaladin got a target directly in the eye, doesn't seem easy.

 

Finally, the last time that we see Kaladin use his knives for throwing is against the Shardbearer.

(side track)

In the second to last paragraph on page 673, Kaladin is shown to use the spear in close range, over his knife once within range, giving a little credence to my argument above that he threw the knife at the battalion lord and did not physically push the blade, since if he wanted to do that, he'd use his spear as evidenced here by his choice to do so here.

(back on topic)

Page 674, paragraph 4 (Battling the Shardbearer), “Kaladin strained, hurling himself back onto his feet. He whipped his hand up, flinging his knife at the eyes watching from behind the impervious armor. The dagger hit the faceplate just slightly off from the right angle, bouncing against the side of the slit and ricocheting out.”

Also a bit below that, “...slamming the spearhead right in the Shardbearer's visor slit.”

I mention this bit since it specifies what I was/am attempting to articulate, in that Kaladin threw the Knives earlier, or (basically) verbs/adverbs/adjectives would've been used to show the action to the reader more.

 

So basically, here, Kaladin decides that one of his best bets in defeating his opponent, is to throw one of his weapons at what sounds to be a nearly impossible shot, taking into account how quickly the series of events in the fight unfold. This either shows desperation, or a total confidence born of almost never missing his mark. Admittedly he was close to his target, but throwing versus what he does with the spearhead a moment later hardly seems like the best move, unless you almost never miss.

Which he wouldn't if he was lashing his knives to his target, which appears to be his opponents eyes.

Also if he anchored the knife to the eye, it might also be part of why the throw missed, it tried to go directly at the eye, and the direct path was obstructed. Just showing that since even it missing doesn't preclude the use of the lashing.

 

(Fixation on the eyes due to lighteye's screwing up his life? Though he does throw at that darkeyes eyes too, and if your going to aim at someone's face eyes seem as good a target as any. Or it could be that that's where he's anchoring the knives to, and that's why it's mentioned so much.)

 

Finally my biggest issue with this just being explained away as, 'Kaladin's just good at throwing knives,' is that it's not mentioned once that he's trained extensively to throw knives. This is versus the amount and number of times we're told Kaladin practiced with a spear, and how good he is with it. I don't think knives or throwing them even comes up in conversation again.

 

Unfortunately we don't know if any of his spears were dun after the battle, since what happens to him after the Shardbearer's death obstructs the possibility of him finding out, or probably, even taking notice of something slightly out of the ordinary.

 

Combine that with the fact that he is never shown using a knife as a weapon again throughout the current timeline, it just seems like Brandon might just be trying to hint without giving it away. Or I looked at this way too hard.

 

Maybe I missed/am forgetting something and this isn't possible, if so please tell me.

 

 

 

Hope these were interesting and not a waste of time, oh, and Hello everyone!

 

P.S.

Sorry if anything isn't stated well, I tried.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Valnurath

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I won't go into specifics if you haven't read them but one the the WoR excerpts indicates that Tanavast was specifically speaking of reforming the knights radiant when he says unite them (possibly even unite the Radiants and spren again).

Your second point is an interesting idea and hadn't heard that possible connection before.

[el_warko]

I too like point two.

[Aleksiel]

I think your second point is a very good one.

 

As to the first, here's what the Almighty says to Dalinar in the vision he fought alongside KR:

 

 

They were one, once,” Taffa—or whatever it was—said. “The orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused.” ...“I wish I could help you,” Taffa said, looking at Dalinar but ignoring his questions. “You have to unite them.

 

I think it refers to uniting the KR, but does that mean the Almighty isn't aware the Knights Radiant are no more? 

[Valnurath]

I won't go into specifics if you haven't read them but one the the WoR excerpts indicates that Tanavast was specifically speaking of reforming the knights radiant when he says unite them (possibly even unite the Radiants and spren again).

 

I've read the ones put up on Tor.com, but I likely missed making such a connection, or just don't remember it.

 

 

It's nice to hear that other people think the second idea has some merit at least . =)

[ShadowsFell]

Regarding #1:  I think the Almighty/Honor was referring to uniting humanity/people/nations, to provide a unified front.  The darkeyed/lighteyed thing wasn't applicable at that time, because remember the visions were a recording from a long time ago.  I don't think the idea of uniting the KR fits, though, because althought he KR didn't always agree, they were still together, unlike the nations.

 

Regarding #2:  Good points, and very viable ... concur .

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Regarding #1:  I think the Almighty/Honor was referring to uniting humanity/people/nations, to provide a unified front.  The darkeyed/lighteyed thing wasn't applicable at that time, because remember the visions were a recording from a long time ago.  I don't think the idea of uniting the KR fits, though, because althought he KR didn't always agree, they were still together.

This quote from chapter 4 of words of radiance makes it pretty clear he is specifically referring to reforming and uniting the radiants:

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible. You will need to refound them. This is your task. Unite them. Create a fortress that can weather the storm. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.”

[ShadowsFell]

This quote from chapter 4 of words of radiance makes it pretty clear he is specifically referring to reforming and uniting the radiants:

The Almighty turned to him. “I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible. You will need to refound them. This is your task. Unite them. Create a fortress that can weather the storm. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.”

 

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree.  I think there are many thoughts in that paragraph, and not all of them necessarily need to be talking about the KR.

 

As in:

1.  Recreate the KR:  Self explanatory.

2.  Unite everyone:  Has there been evidence that the KR were dis-united?  The  "They" pronoun does not need to refer to the subject in the previous sentence.  I agree it is most likely, but not necessarily the only option.  It COULD be referring to the spren, since we know there are divisions between Honorspren and Cryptics.

3.  Create a fortress that can weather the storm:  This could be a literal fortress, to weather a literal everstorm.  The fortress could mean any number of figurative things as well, not just KR.

4.  Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose:  I think this means a LOT of things, not just refound KR.

 

Just some thoughts.  Everyone agreeing is no fun

[Riftwise]

Here's the quote from Chapter 47 "Stormblessings" on the knife throw:

 

 

Subsquad three drew off the honor guard. Subsquad two distracted the lighteyes. He didn’t see Kaladin approaching from a third direction. The man dropped with a knife to the eye; his face was unprotected. He screamed as he clattered to the ground, still alive.

This doesn't rule out a use of a surge, but a good knife thrower could do it too.
 

[Valnurath]

True a good (or better) knife thrower could, we're just only ever shown his ability, never told the reason behind it, which seems suspicious.

 

Also massively updated the OP.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Valnurath

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree.  I think there are many thoughts in that paragraph, and not all of them necessarily need to be talking about the KR.

 

As in:

1.  Recreate the KR:  Self explanatory.

2.  Unite everyone:  Has there been evidence that the KR were dis-united?  The  "They" pronoun does not need to refer to the subject in the previous sentence.  I agree it is most likely, but not necessarily the only option.  It COULD be referring to the spren, since we know there are divisions between Honorspren and Cryptics.

3.  Create a fortress that can weather the storm:  This could be a literal fortress, to weather a literal everstorm.  The fortress could mean any number of figurative things as well, not just KR.

4.  Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose:  I think this means a LOT of things, not just refound KR.

Of course, it's not definite and he could be talking about anything since he uses pronouns for a lot of the statements. So, any interpretation is valid at this point but highly unlikely.

 

2. If you read before that paragraph, everything Tanavast has said directly to Dalinar up to that paragraph was talking about the KR specifically. He makes numerous statements about them and doesn't make any references to peoples, cities, kindgdoms, etc. It would be poor rhetoric on his part to then make a statement about uniting anything other than the KR with a general pronoun.

3. I actually agree on the idea that it could be a literal fortress. I imagine he wants Dalinar to either refound Urithiru or somethings similar with the KR.

4. Yes, Vexing Odium can take many forms so fully agree on that point.

I'm in no way trying to say my way is the only interpretation. I was unsure myself after reading your post and actually went back to read the full section of the excerpt. These were just thoughts that came up while reading it.

Edited February 6, 2014 by aWESomeness summoned

[ShadowsFell]

Of course, it's not definite and he could be talking about anything since he uses pronouns for a lot of the statements. So, any interpretation is valid at this point but highly unlikely.

 

2. If you read before that paragraph, everything Tanavast has said directly to Dalinar up to that paragraph was talking about the KR specifically. He makes numerous statements about them and doesn't make any references to peoples, cities, kindgdoms, etc. It would be poor rhetoric on his part to then make a statement about uniting anything other than the KR with a general pronoun.

3. I actually agree on the idea that it could be a literal fortress. I imagine he wants Dalinar to either refound Urithiru or somethings similar with the KR.

4. Yes, Vexing Odium can take many forms so fully agree on that point.

I'm in no way trying to say my way is the only interpretation. I was unsure myself after reading your post and actually went back to read the full section of the excerpt. These were just thoughts that came up while reading it.

 

Thanks for the honest discussion, I appreciate it.  Good points, I completely agree that they are most likely talking about KR the entire time, it makes the most sense.  My main sticking point is that we don't have enough information that they were ever divided enough to warrant telling someone to unite them, unless I'm missing something (probably the case lol).

 

I'm curious to see how it plays out, because I'm sure we'll get much more information in WoR on this particular issue.

[Swimmingly]

I think Brandon might have been channelling his subconscious Matrim when he wrote that, what with the knives and everything. Not that that rules anything out.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

My main sticking point is that we don't have enough information that they were ever divided enough to warrant telling someone to unite them, unless I'm missing something (probably the case lol).

I think it depends a lot on exactly when Tanavast created his memory journal and was killed. If it was after the recreance than he knows about the KR quitting and disbanding. From my understanding of some of the things he says, I believe that to be the case. He isn't speaking of fixing discord among the orders, he's talking about uniting them in the sense that they need to be brought back together and reformed into a functional organization.

[marianmi]

Lashing the knives is very possible, and probable.

You could have made your point in less than half the number of words you used though

[rbnguevara]

Looking back at WoK szeth states that he cannot lash things to someone in shard plate or lash the wearer either.  So in his fights when battleing another shard bearer he ,ashes items to a wall behind them so they still have to fight through flying objects.  so I dont think Kal lashed a dagger to the sharbearers face/eye.  If you could lash objects to a shardbearer under the armor i think szeth would have done it.

 

sent this from my xbox so sorry for the typos and errors

[Delightful]

Looking back at WoK szeth states that he cannot lash things to someone in shard plate or lash the wearer either. So in his fights when battleing another shard bearer he ,ashes items to a wall behind them so they still have to fight through flying objects. so I dont think Kal lashed a dagger to the sharbearers face/eye. If you could lash objects to a shardbearer under the armor i think szeth would have done it.

sent this from my xbox so sorry for the typos and errors

I think he just can't lash to shardplate directly. If the shardbearers faceplate was open..... It's possible.

[StormLight_Luc]

Hi there, this is my first post so... please, be gentle

Those are good theories, and damnation you explain your thought well but, I'm not sure that I agree with your second Hypothese.

I will not discuss if Kaladin is able to do those lashings subconsciously, as that enters in the domain as "not enough information" but there is a detail that I think you are forgetting here.

For the Lashign to work, any Lashing at all, Stormlight is needed and as far as what happens in the chapter Kaladin has already given away his spheres, first to Gare to "buy" Cenn from him and afterwards to bribe Ven, the head surgeon, so as to make his men go before any other wounded (lighteyes aside).

I serioulsy doubt that Kaladin would be going to battle with a third pouch full of sphere and the battalion lord he killed didn't have any (they did check it out! Bribes are expensive you know? )

Even if by some way not addressed in the chapters Kaladin still had a pouch of shperes with him most of the light would have been wasted as Kaladin has been shown to cry out, shout and even bellowed several times during the battle. Any Light would have been lost several times over before Kaladin engaged the shardbearer.

Personaly I prefer to think that is was pure skill that allowed Kaladin to prevail upon the sharbearer and an unconscious uphold of the Second Ideal in the fight that allowed the connection with Syl to happen.

This said, does someone know how fast someone -in this case Kaladin- can draw Stormlight after bonding for the first time?

[Gloom]

I'm going to agree with SL_Luc here for slightly different reasons. Kaladin watched his brother slain from a relatively short distance away, then dedicated himself to his training. Kaladin is a reasonably intelligent lad, and I find it likely that he understood that even if he was a great spearman at the time Tien was still too far away for him to save him. So Kaladin spent less time, but still a sufficient amount of time training with throwing knives. Had Kaladin been as good with knives at the time of Tiens death as he was before he left Amarams army, he could have saved him by wounding or killing the man who slew Tien.

 

I'll also throw in here that learning to throw a knife is tricky, and often imprecise. Lashing the knife may force it to hit the target, but Kaladin on more than one occasion got them with the pointy end in a lethal location. This speaks to me of lots of practice, mentioned or not. I would agree that it is possible that he was operating on low levels of SL, but I find it unlikely as his spheres weren't going dun on him all the time then.