Awkward Love Triangle

[Vissy]

I don't find any of the common pairings to be distasteful. What people are forgetting here it seems is that clichés are called such because they actually work... and besides I'm sure there's a cliché for whatever the relationship between Adolin and Shallan can be dubbed as. Daughter of a waning house gets an arranged marriage with troublesome but gold-hearted scion of a powerful house, and surprisingly it ends up working out well is their cliché. Kaladin x Shallan is the poor person - rich person thing (though I suppose not even that anymore as Kaladin is a Radiant now and could probably get anything he wanted at a moment's notice. Plus he's lighteyed now.).

Actually, this made me realize that as far as clichés go, Kaladin and Shallan's story isn't as clichéd as it seems. There's a few uncommon twists here.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Guest]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

They had their genuine moments, during their first date when Shallan allowed his natural curiosity, her natural self to take over which caused Adolin to answer in the most genuine manner we have seen him. Also, he open-up, he told something personal, he allowed his feelings to speak, the ones he usually never lets out. To me, it was meaningful, because neither actually had to do it, it just happened.

Same could be said about the famous chasm scene... But I don't want to open that Pandora's box again.

Now, the way I think about that Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin triangle thing.

Shallan: Dalinar talks with her, when she arrives at the Shattered Plains about her causal with Adolin and lets it temporarily stand, but just because of Jasnah's endorsement. Now, it's obvious that Shallan is under scrutiny. So she tries to make it work, because she needs to make it work for her family. She likes Adolin, but is it love? Hard to tell. Could be. Could become. Though I'd say that they were on a good way up until the menagerie date. They kiss (though most the time forced, which imho is a big hint of how hard Shallan is trying to make it work.) and hold hands. Completely understandable, because both are physically attractive and think they are going to get married. Though, I don't know. I guess, it kinda feels like a celebrity marriage? Hard to express, without being too blunt. But then Shallan began to notice Kaladin more and more and, after the chasm scene, even started to admire him.

Quote

Shallan PoV

That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind , noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there.

Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him.

He was. Like the wind and rocks were.

Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?”

The way I see it Shallan, or at least her subconsciousness, is already caught up in the love triangle and she doesn't even see it. But now, that Shallan is a Radiant and really doesn't need Adolin anymore... Well, we'll see what will happen. The physical attraction obviously is there between Adolin and Shallan, storms, I might even say she likes his emotional and personality traits. His kindness, nobleness, genuinity, but Kaladin came and stirred up the pot. The thing is, in the chasm, she realized how Kaladin actually has the same traits and then some, if he decides to show them. As seen in the quote, she thinks of him, when she doesn't even want it. And I believe, that our subconsciousness is way more genuine, than our consciousness, which we can control. Shallan has implicit feelings for Kaladin, but represses them, because of her causal to Adolin and the requirement for her to marry him to help her family. Well, at least that was until she officially became a Radiant. That is also why she hasn't sought Kaladin out again after the chasm.

Adolin: Obviously in love with Shallan. So much, that a breakup might actually devastate him deeply - to the foundations of his self. Though his rather... unsure position of himself right now might bring him to breakup with her by himself out of some noble reason.

Now comes the party crasher, Kaladin: He and Shallan start off on completely the wrong foot, but he still is intrigued by her for all the wrong reasons. He thinks, she might be an assassin or a spy, targeting the Kholins. He isn't even interested in Shallan, until the chasm happens. Until this happened:

Quote

Kaladin PoV

She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken. Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway. It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

He admires her for that and begins to open up. He actually wants her attention now, but represses his feelings after he says to himself and the reader, that he actually likes Adolin and wants them to be happy. That they fit. Little does he know, that Shallan does think about him in the same moment subconsciously, but catches herself again and of course focuses on Adolin then. Kaladin has explicit feelings for Shallan, but represses them, because of his budding friendship with Adolin. For the moment. That is also why he hasn't sought Shallan out again after the chasm.

Conclusion: Yes, I think there will be some conflict between the three. Maybe not a long-lasting conflict, like most love triangles, but there will be conflict. Though I think, that Kaladin and Shallan have the best chances, because, one, during WoR Shallans and Adolins relationship drifted more and more apart, after hitting it off immediately. Drifting so far apart, that Adolin really is starting to doubt his place beside Shallan, while Shallan and Kaladin have been drawn to eachother during WoR, after hating/annoying each other immediately. Actually standing beside eachother now as two new Radiants, and are probably the most influentual right now. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I see some kind of relation there.

 

And I agree with @Rob Lucci

Shallan-Adolin is just as cliche, especially in the Cosmere, as Shallan-Kaladin.

Edited May 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Fulminato he/him]

between shallan and kaladin there is a boulder, a very huge bulder. the social relation darkeyes - ligheyes for kaladin. he can be a lighteye now, but don't think he accept the shift of social standing.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

At times, I wonder of Sanderson knew how much debate would arise around the Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin love triangle.  Sometimes, I feel like the same discussions were going around after Twilight book (ugh).  Thank god we only have a few more months before this discussion is settled, hopefully.  And then we can go back to my favorite couple; Wayne and Melaan (wink wink).

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, Fulminato said:

between shallan and kaladin there is a boulder, a very huge bulder. the social relation darkeyes - ligheyes for kaladin. he can be a lighteye now, but don't think he accept the shift of social standing.

Kaladin became lighteyed at the end of Words of Radiance, when he swore the Third Ideal of the Windrunners. So that hurdle has been cleared.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Calderis he/him]

53 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Kaladin became lighteyed at the end of Words of Radiance, when he swore the Third Ideal of the Windrunners. So that hurdle has been cleared.

Kaladin's eyes change when he uses Stormlight. A few hour without, and they revert to normal. It's not a permanent change, and I don't think Kaladin could fully accept it, even if it were. 

[Vissy]

I mean, that's not the point. Kaladin's social status is now effectively far above that of your regular lighteyes. He's practically nobility.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

I mean, that's not the point. Kaladin's social status is now effectively far above that of your regular lighteyes. He's practically nobility.

To Dalinar, and those who accept the KR yes. To those who view the Knights according to common Vorin belief, he's a villain before they even meet him. 

[iamstick]

I'm hoping Sanderson can steer through the turbulent waters of tropesville and allow Kaladin and Shallan to act as colleagues, friends, and what-ifs, without disrupting Shallan's marriage to Adolin. 

[Fulminato he/him]

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Kaladin became lighteyed at the end of Words of Radiance, when he swore the Third Ideal of the Windrunners. So that hurdle has been cleared.

i don't refer to the effective kaladin social place (nanh/dahn), but how kaladin see himself in the vorin social structure. a darkeye don't court a lighteye.

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

To Dalinar, and those who accept the KR yes. To those who view the Knights according to common Vorin belief, he's a villain before they even meet him. 

So to those who hold the power to make him powerful and decide his social status. This is like saying that a noble does not have high social status because some street beggar hates nobles.

32 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

i don't refer to the effective kaladin social place (nanh/dahn), but how kaladin see himself in the vorin social structure. a darkeye don't court a lighteye.

That wasn't a problem in WoR when Kaladin crushed on Shallan. His hatred of lighteyes is something he will have to deal with eventually anyway, especially now that he has eclipsed them in social status.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Calderis he/him]

@Rob Lucci the amount of time that has been shown towards the way the Knights are viewed in Vorinism is far to great for things to simply be "hey, the Knights Radiant have returned and they're good again!" 

I strongly doubt that everything is going to be socially copacetic for Dalinar and company. 

[Vissy]

I mean... what are you saying? Dalinar is the de facto ruler of Alethkar. He has all of the highprinces at his beck and call and all of the nation's resources to distribute as he pleases. Are you saying that the entire nation is going into full revolt because of Radiants returning? Of course even if it did, this wouldn't affect Kaladin's high status in Dalinar's hierarchy...

Edited May 23, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Calderis he/him]

People's religious beliefs are important. What the Radiants represent to most people is betrayal. It was one thing (and not fully accepted) for Dalinar to talk about refunding the Knights. 

Actually having the Knights return could easily cause a division that could spark a civil war. And Vorinism has effects well beyond Alethkar.

Kaladin can count on preferential treatment by Dalinar and company only. And being as he just left Dalinar's presence in book, he's going to be facing that very very soon.

Being hated for what he's become, effectively a lighteyes, is going to complicate him dealing with his existing issues.

None of this is going to make his feelings towards Shallan any simpler. 

[Andy92]

I think Shallan's relationship with Kaladin is less about romance and more about Kaladin learning that not all lighteyes are terrible people/have an easy life. To be honest I don't really care about who ends up with who, but I thought their bond was good for Kaladin's character growth. 

[Calderis he/him]

@Andy92 I normally don't participate in shipping threads at all. I feel the same way. The relationships in book only matter to me in what ways they effect the characters. I would prefer to leave romance out of it all together. 

[Andy92]

@Calderis I don't mind having romance in the books because that is a driving factor in most people's lives. It can be cliché but it tends to be true. Most people will do things out of love for a spouse/child/parent that they normally wouldn't do otherwise. I do agree that the most important part is how the relationships affect the characters' overall story arcs and individual growths. And for the most part I think Sanderson does that successfully in his books. Warbreaker and Elantris come to mind. I think his poorest attempt at romantic drama was the Vin/Elend/Zane thing in Mistborn, but I think he's learned a lot as a writer with romance since then. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

People's religious beliefs are important. What the Radiants represent to most people is betrayal. It was one thing (and not fully accepted) for Dalinar to talk about refunding the Knights. 

Actually having the Knights return could easily cause a division that could spark a civil war. And Vorinism has effects well beyond Alethkar.

Kaladin can count on preferential treatment by Dalinar and company only. And being as he just left Dalinar's presence in book, he's going to be facing that very very soon.

Being hated for what he's become, effectively a lighteyes, is going to complicate him dealing with his existing issues.

None of this is going to make his feelings towards Shallan any simpler. 

It was something, I thought for a long time too, but was presuaded off it simply because: The Everstorm is here. The people need the Knights Radiant and will gladly abandon the Vorin views on them.

Besides Kaladin has no choice. He is bound by his oaths and already knows the repercussions of breaking his oaths. If anything, a steady relationship with Shallan could help him keep his oaths. That's what I believe, anyway.

[BladeofTalenelat]

On 5/22/2017 at 1:17 PM, gbazz4 said:

I am right there with you on this. It is too cliché  for me. I would prefer it just get left Adolin and Shallan then Kaladin finding another interest. It would be better for the story in my opinion. The only possible upside to a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan would be if their spren can interact and reading some banter between Pattern and Syl.

How can you say the word "banter" and not want a Kaladin x Shallan relationship? That's been literally the best banter in the book. Save Wit--but no one keeps up with him. And Kaladin is the only one who can keep up with Shallan! They are negatives of each other and would build so epically together and at least be interesting at. Then again. This relationship could happen with proximity, if not love. So the romance isn't totally necessary.

 

[Calderis he/him]

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

It was something, I thought for a long time too, but was presuaded off it simply because: The Everstorm is here. The people need the Knights Radiant and will gladly abandon the Vorin views on them.

Besides Kaladin has no choice. He is bound by his oaths and already knows the repercussions of breaking his oaths. If anything, a steady relationship with Shallan could help him keep his oaths. That's what I believe, anyway.

The human capacity for denial is astounding. As time passes and the Knights do their thing the Vorin opinion will have to change. The Everstorm will speed that up a bit, but I don't think centuries of belief in the Lost Radiants as the betrayers of mankind will disappear immediately. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The human capacity for denial is astounding. As time passes and the Knights do their thing the Vorin opinion will have to change. The Everstorm will speed that up a bit, but I don't think centuries of belief in the Lost Radiants as the betrayers of mankind will disappear immediately. 

Yet again, Kaladin is bound to protect. So he couldn't care less, about what people think about him or the KR. I don't think that they will disappear immediately, but rather fast.

[gbazz4 he/him]

11 hours ago, BladeofTalenelat said:

How can you say the word "banter" and not want a Kaladin x Shallan relationship? That's been literally the best banter in the book. Save Wit--but no one keeps up with him. And Kaladin is the only one who can keep up with Shallan! They are negatives of each other and would build so epically together and at least be interesting at. Then again. This relationship could happen with proximity, if not love. So the romance isn't totally necessary.

 

The banter between Kaladin and Shallan is fun, but you made the argument for me that they don't need a romantic relationship to have the banter.  They have been doing it already without a romantic relationship and they can continue it just as friends and everything would be fine. 

[Tesh Any pronouns]

My friend who told me this idea (Kaladinwillumarryme?) Has started calling it Shalladin. Hello Studio C fans. I think she the got the idea from the whole Mattory thing.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Smart Sloth

[Stormlightning she/her]

4 hours ago, Smart Sloth said:

My friend who told me this idea (Kaladinwillumarryme?) Has started calling it Shalladin. HelloStudio C fans. I think the got the idea from the whole Mattory thing.

This causes confusion to some extent because our simplified ships are:

Shalladin.

Shadolin.

Storming lighteyes names.

[Fulminato he/him]

On 24/5/2017 at 0:59 AM, Rob Lucci said:

That wasn't a problem in WoR when Kaladin crushed on Shallan. His hatred of lighteyes is something he will have to deal with eventually anyway, especially now that he has eclipsed them in social status.

eventually, yea. Don't think a couple of people (dalinar, adolin and shallan) and few week can make radical change in the kaladin main mindset.