An argument for Bonds as Roshar's focus.

[Calderis he/him]

I can understand completely why many people view spren as the focus of Roshar's magic. It's nearly universal that we see a spren involved in the magic, whether it's the Radiants, Parshendi, or fabrials.

I've always felt that the bond itself is what grants abilities, and it still makes sense that spren would be the ones normally involved. As splinters they are an obvious source of investiture. 

There is one bond that grants an ability that does not directly involve the Spren. Squires. They gain the ability to invest from their bond with the Radiant. The Nahel bond may be what makes them a viable candidate for a bond with other humans that grants a relatively minor ability, but the squires do gain an ability without a direct bond to a Spren. 

For the purpose of determining a magical focus, I believe they represent a significant point in favor of the bond as focus instead of the Spren itself. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I don't really have enough evidence either way (the reason this is still under debate to begin with). I still think it's bonds but never really had a solid "why"..

I will say one thing, because it's currently in my headcanon until proven otherwise: I think that accessing Stormlight is the "strength" part of the Windrunner Resonance and that normal squires might not have that.

I'm curious where you put the "Bond" in Fabrial-Tech, since I'm not 100% on whether a Spren trapped in a Gemstone would count as a bond or not.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't really have enough evidence either way (the reason this is still under debate to begin with). I still think it's bonds but never really had a solid "why"..

I will say one thing, because it's currently in my headcanon until proven otherwise: I think that accessing Stormlight is the "strength" part of the Windrunner Resonance and that normal squires might not have that.

I'm curious where you put the "Bond" in Fabrial-Tech, since I'm not 100% on whether a Spren trapped in a Gemstone would count as a bond or not.

So will squires of different orders each have a different ability? Because I believe that a Radiant in glowing red shardplate (not a windrunner, since we see that their's glows blue during the starfall chapter in the first book) during Dalinar's vision in the purelake who's squires also glowed faintly of stormlight.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Radiant in glowing red Shardplate who's squires also glowed faintly of Stormlight.

Did they? hrmm... must've forgotten that

If that's the case, then they should all get Stormlight access, and Windrunner Squires get the contrived boon of being able to hold more Stormlight since the Dustbringer squires only glowed faintly.

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm curious where you put the "Bond" in Fabrial-Tech, since I'm not 100% on whether a Spren trapped in a Gemstone would count as a bond or not.

Being forcibly bound is still a bond. It's just not a symbiotic bond like we've seen with the Radiants. I personally don't see the listener bond as any different than a fabrial though. They draw in a spren and it is subsumed in their form, and held captive with no will of its own. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Calderis

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Did they? hrmm... must've forgotten that

If that's the case, then they should all get Stormlight access, and Windrunner Squires get the contrived boon of being able to hold more Stormlight since the Dustbringer squires only glowed faintly.

Ha! Found the exact quote

Quote

Soldiers approached bearing hammers, and unexpectedly, these men now also glowed with Stormlight, though far more faintly. CH 4 Taker of Secrets towards the end of the vision

Also maybe its a symbiotic bond but to the 2nd degree. A fish that eats the fungus off of a bigger fish who in turns provides food for crabs on the sea floor by nibbling away at the fungus. Perhaps the Knights themselves become spren like themselves, and those who they form bonds with benefit from this.

However! Does this just apply to those they lead or could it be family as well, spouses and children for example. We might not see Adolin become a Radiant but he COULD gain access to stormlight if it works like that (Though I personally expect him to become a Dustbringer)

(Also Calderis tried to upvote and it said I could not for you? Kinda new so Idk why)

Edited May 10, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Also maybe its a symbiotic bond but to the 2nd degree. A fish that eats the fungus off of a bigger fish who in turns provides food for crabs on the sea floor by nibbling away at the fungus. Perhaps the Knights themselves become spren like themselves, and those who they form bonds with benefit from this.

My comment on the bond not being symbiotic was only about gem captive spren in Fabrial-Tech and the listener bond. 

I think that description is exactly what's going on with Squires. It's my point though. If spren are the focus, I don't think a second hand bond would be possible. If the bond itself is the source though, a radiant would be invested enough to create these second hand bonds. 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

My comment on the bond not being symbiotic was only about gem captive spren in Fabrial-Tech and the listener bond. 

I think that description is exactly what's going on with Squires. It's my point though. If spren are the focus, I don't think a second hand bond would be possible. If the bond itself is the source though, a radiant would be invested enough to create these second hand bonds. 

Lol I stink at recognizing investiture laws within the actual individual magic systems. But that makes sense if the investiture is the focus. Though do you think the bond needs to be spiritual? And if so maybe it only works for men who are "broken" thus explaining why it wouldn't work for family of Radiants, but could for Kaladin's Bridgemen and Shallan's Deserters. Mini-Radiants ftw! (Do you think they have to hold to the oaths as stringently?)

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

(Also Calderis tried to upvote and it said I could not for you? Kinda new so Idk why)

There's a daily cap of 16. It doesn't reset at a certain time(that I've found yet) and seems to reset whenever your 16th upvote ago was at least 24hrs ago.

3 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Do you think they have to hold to the oaths as stringently?

We've speculated that this could become a plot point in a later book, but it depends on how the Stormlight gifting works for Squires

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There's a daily cap of 16. It doesn't reset at a certain time(that I've found yet) and seems to reset whenever your 16th upvote ago was at least 24hrs ago.

We've speculated that this could become a plot point in a later book, but it depends on how the Stormlight gifting works for Squires

Well Moash is probably going to be peeved that he missed out on it, and I'd love to see Kaladin's reaction at GAZ breathing in stormlight!

[Calderis he/him]

Because the squires are bonded to the Radiants and not the Spren directly, I don't believe their ability will be constrained by the Oaths at all, but will be effected by their relationships with the Knights. 

So while they may still be forced to live by the Oaths, because doing otherwise could jeopardize their standing with the Knight and cause them to break their bond. I think the squires bond could be either far more flexible, or just as rigid, depending on the temperament of the Knight they are bonded to. 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because the squires are bonded to the Radiants and not the Spren directly, I don't believe their ability will be constrained by the Oaths at all, but will be effected by their relationships with the Knights. 

So while they may still be forced to live by the Oaths, because doing otherwise could jeopardize their standing with the Knight and cause them to break their bond. I think the squires bond could be either far more flexible, or just as rigid, depending on the temperament of the Knight they are bonded to. 

My main tear jerker moment in WoR was when Hobber gets injured and tells Kaladin that he burns broth.. I hope he can heal too. (They might have to amputate first though and he'll have to pull a double lopen) 

[Calderis he/him]

@Radiant_Jaeger I suppose that depends on the amount of Stormlight required for spiritual healing vs. How much Stormlight the squires can hold.

I hope Hobber can be healed too. 

I also don't think your amputation trick would work. Healing uses the soul as a template, so if the soul were damaged they couldn't heal past the damaged parts. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Calderis, I used to very much be of the view that the focus is the bonds, rather than the spren. I’ve changed this while slowly developing a theory of investiture and the realms (which I won’t develop or post for some time). There are a lot of WoBs on this, including a superb list that Moogle put together in 2015 here. I'll include some choice lines below.

Quote

These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

...

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does.

...

The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.”

...

In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

...

But my biggest basis is what I still consider the best description of how investiture is funnelled (or at least the most readable), the play-dough machine and nozzles.

Quote

QUESTION

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

(source)

QUESTION

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. This can be seen in Warbreaker, where the power has been distributed and inhabits the people. The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on Sel and Scadrial where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. On Nalthis (and in a lesser way, Roshar) will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

A little direct manifestation in this is found in the subtle differences between Allomancy and Feruchemy. In Allomancy, when you enhance the senses, you just get a blast of power--and all senses are enhanced, whether you want them all or not. In Feruchemy, you can be more precise, and pick a specific sense to store. The power is internal here, and therefore more limited in how much you can draw--but you can also be more precise with its manipulation.

Note that Roshar Surgebinding is a special case, as the magical symbiosis there is stronger than it is on other worlds, as much of the magic involves bits of power who have become sapient.

(source)

So, we know on Scadrial that the ability to use investiture is determined by your genetics - if you have the right sDNA you can access Preservation through the metal that matches up to the part of your sDNA that has this, I suppose, pattern. You then still need to burn the right metal to channel the investiture. But sDNA gives access, the metal (to paraphrase Khriss) starts an investiture and keeps it running. Hence on Scadrial the metal is the focus, because the molecular structure of it provides the right pattern, the right 'nozzle' to channel the investiture and tell it what form to become.

On planets like Nalthis the focus is will. You don't do or draw or consume anything special, you provide the focus with your own intent.

On Roshar, part of it is will, but mostly it's form (like on Scadrial and Sel). Roshar is already a planet of bonds. The relevant bonds for surgebinding are, firstly, the Nahel bond, and secondly, the bonds the surgebinder forms between things in using the magic. The Nahel bond, I feel strongly, is simply the means by which you acquire the ability in the first place to access investiture. The Nahel bond is simply the equivalent of having the right hereditary part of your sDNA (that, for alomancy, flowed down the generations of descendents of the first lerasium-munchers). On both planets you need to snap, have a 'hole' in you sufficient for the investiture to fill. But on Scadrial that doesn't do anything unless you have the right sDNA already. On Roshar it doesn't do anything unless a sapient spren (a sapient piece of investiture) chooses to bond you and fill that hole.

What is the thing that determines the shape of the investiture on Roshar? It's which of the 10 types of Nahel-bond spren you are bonded to. Sure, you can argue that the Nahel bond is different for each one and it's that bond that determines the shape. But I feel the spren is more likely, especially when you consider things like fabrials.

The other bonds are of course in the use of the magic. But that's the result of how your body uses the investiture, it's not the instruction of how to use it (ie it's not the 'nozzle', it's the bit of dough that comes out at the very end). For me, the most sensible 'nozzle' in all of this has to be the spren itself.

Hmm and I'm not sold by the squire argument, it's definitely an interesting argument against it but not particularly troubling for me. There's no reason why the spren can't be the nozzle (the focus), and for Windrunners that focus tells the power to be used in a way that doesn't only let the surgebinder utilise it but also lets the investiture flow through him/her to the people he/she has intense spiritual connections with.

But either way I agree this isn't at all settled, and I could surely be wrong. This has been an ongoing debate for some years, that I can see. But for me, I've become a convert of the spren-focus side now. Very open to be converted back though  

[Calderis he/him]

@Extesian I totally understand. It's why I opened my post the way I did. Almost every bond that allows access to investiture is with a spren, whether it's the surges and forms, or the Fauna seemingly growing larger than physics should allow due to the bonds with native spren.

I just think that if spren are the focus, squires would need some secondary bond with the Spren itself, and that may actually be happening as Bridge Four obviously know about and feel something for Syl.

The nature of a Windrunners resonance implies that the squires are a result of the Knights and not the Spren though. And if the focus is the Spren, I can't see a Windrunners resonance influencing the strength and numbers of people who are gaining abilities through a bond with their spren and not themselves.

I don't expect this to settle the argument. I don't even expect anyone to change their opinion. I just have to present an argument I feel is necessary based on the evidence as I perceive it. 

The fact that bonds are so prevelant and strengthened on Roshar is a point in their favor in my opinion, and it makes perfect sense that bonds with sentient investiture would naturally produce the most drastic results. I can't reconcile the fact that a bond that is not directly with a spren could produce results though, if spren are the focus. 

I'll happily disagree with you for now though, and happily change my opinion when we finally get something concrete that contradicts it. 

P. S. I look forward to reading your theory. 

[+Extesian he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian I totally understand. It's why I opened my post the way I did. Almost every bond that allows access to investiture is with a spren, whether it's the surges and forms, or the Fauna seemingly growing larger than physics should allow due to the bonds with native spren.

I just think that if spren are the focus, squires would need some secondary bond with the Spren itself, and that may actually be happening as Bridge Four obviously know about and feel something for Syl.

The nature of a Windrunners resonance implies that the squires are a result of the Knights and not the Spren though. And if the focus is the Spren, I can't see a Windrunners resonance influencing the strength and numbers of people who are gaining abilities through a bond with their spren and not themselves.

I don't expect this to settle the argument. I don't even expect anyone to change their opinion. I just have to present an argument I feel is necessary based on the evidence as I perceive it. 

The fact that bonds are so prevelant and strengthened on Roshar is a point in their favor in my opinion, and it makes perfect sense that bonds with sentient investiture would naturally produce the most drastic results. I can't reconcile the fact that a bond that is not directly with a spren could produce results though, if spren are the focus. 

I'll happily disagree with you for now though, and happily change my opinion when we finally get something concrete that contradicts it. 

P. S. I look forward to reading your theory. 

For sure Calderis, I hope you didn't take it as any criticism or rejection of your views. I think both arguments have the same validity, I enjoy the debate, it's how we get things solved here

As for resonance I believe the resonance has to do with the nozzles themselves rather than the Knight or bond out spren specifically. If you have your body constantly filtering investiture according to two specific patterns, over time they blend to also form one hybrid pattern that becomes a new use of that investiture. But yeah I also think that just like spren symbiotically bond all sorts of things in Roshar that you can have a spren focus that can still then filter through the bond (Connection) that the Windrunner then forms with his /her squires.

But either way I'm not disagreeing with you, it would be hubris to simply disagree with either the bond or spren argument and with the no necro rule it's good you opened up this debate!

[Calderis he/him]

@Extesian no offense taken. I wouldn't have started the topic if I didn't want to see more discussion about this issue

[Fulminato he/him]

On 10/5/2017 at 2:51 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Did they? hrmm... must've forgotten that

If that's the case, then they should all get Stormlight access, and Windrunner Squires get the contrived boon of being able to hold more Stormlight  since the Dustbringer squires only glowed faintly.

we have a WoB (don't find it, but find reference in this topic ) on the matter.

some order have squire, some not. the windrunner have a anormal high number of squire. 

and teft told kaladin some bridge four membre glow very faintly

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

45 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

we have a WoB (don't find it, but find reference in this topic ) on the matter.

some order have squire, some not. the windrunner have a anormal high number of squire. 

and teft told kaladin some bridge four membre glow very faintly

This one? (Spoilered for size(Argent likes being thorough))

Spoiler

Argent

Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.

Argent

But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea.

I'm aware of it, and nothing in it disproved the idea that Windrunner squires having Stormlight was the abnormal "power of the squires," which is why Radiant_Jaeger had to quote a scene in the book.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

This one? (Spoilered for size(Argent likes being thorough))

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.

Argent

But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea.

I'm aware of it, and nothing in it disproved the idea that Windrunner squires having Stormlight was the abnormal "power of the squires," which is why Radiant_Jaeger had to quote a scene in the book.

How cool would it be if it was different for each order?! I want all of the men following Shallan to suddenly be super emberassed that they can all read women's script for some reason 

And if Lift ever gets a posse they'll  get food powers! (I know I know it's the old magic and unrelated to the bond (I think) but it would be cool)

[Calderis he/him]

Has anyone asked Brandon if there are Fabrials that achieve different effects with the same type of Spren but a different gemstone? 

[Calderis he/him]

Just posting here as it's related, but all of the new Oathbringer stuff has drawn a lot of attention to Savants and Soulcasters.

So it got me thinking, if the ancient Soulcasting fabrials work the way we (I?) think, they grant the surge of transformation without involving a spren. Soulcasters just pop a new gem in after the old one cracks, they don't need a captive spren. We also hear that Soulcasters (the people) build an affinity, or a stronger bond, with the device and it becomes easier. They also become possessive and dislike having to share the fabrial.

So here is an argument for Bonds that shows an instance of a surge being used in a situation where there is investiture to fuel the surge, but no spren to act as the focus. 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Just posting here as it's related, but all of the new Oathbringer stuff has drawn a lot of attention to Savants and Soulcasters.

So it got me thinking, if the ancient Soulcasting fabrials work the way we (I?) think, they grant the surge of transformation without involving a spren. Soulcasters just pop a new gem in after the old one cracks, they don't need a captive spren. We also hear that Soulcasters (the people) build an affinity, or a stronger bond, with the device and it becomes easier. They also become possessive and dislike having to share the fabrial.

So here is an argument for Bonds that shows an instance of a surge being used in a situation where there is investiture to fuel the surge, but no spren to act as the focus. 

Well we don't know what regular Soulcasters are yet, if they're a type of spren that sort of reverses the nahel Bond, by dragging a person further into shadesmar rather than have a spren be able to think more... I think they could be another type of spren. Perhaps related to the Radiants perhaps not

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Well we don't know what regular Soulcasters are yet, if they're a type of spren that sort of reverses the nahel Bond, by dragging a person further into shadesmar rather than have a spren be able to think more... I think they could be another type of spren. Perhaps related to the Radiants perhaps not

Are you saying that you think the physical Soulcaster is a spren? Like a Shardblade? 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Are you saying that you think the physical Soulcaster is a spren? Like a Shardblade? 

Either the Soulcaster itself or the gems it uses contains them (spren) so yes. I think that would be interesting