Shardholder Presence Required?

[James Baxter]

Is it required for a Shardholder to be present in in a system for their powers of investiture to be present there, or can they bestow their powers as they go from world to world? 

For example, is it possible for Harmony to leave Scadrial and implement Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy on another world without ruining it for those still on Scadrial?

If so, could he create an entirely new system?

 

Send me a link to an older thread if this has been discussed before!

[Pagerunner he/him]

So, Allomancy can be used by people on other worlds; we've seen a worldhopper using it in Stormlight Archive. (You need to watch very closely, though!) Because Allomancy is passed along genetically, if this worldhopper had children, they would have a chance to become Allomancers. So, strictly speaking, yes; Harmony can create Metalborn on another planet without affecting Scadrial. Beyond that, your question is actually getting into some very deep and poorly understood concepts about where magic systems come from in the first place.

I view Allomancy as inherently being from Scadrial, even though it can manifest elsewhere. According to my understanding, particular magic systems are due to an interaction of a Shard (which provides the power) and a planet (which sets some of the specifics and limitations), and they are created when a Shard Invests themselves into that planet to tie themselves strongly together. So, I would say, if Harmony Divested from Scadrial and went to another world, he would have some control over his new magic system, but would also be constrained by the world he was going to. (Like, if he went to Roshar, maybe he makes a Feruchemy analogue that stores in spren or gemstones instead of metal. Or he might go to Nalthis and make something a little more divergent that's still in line with his Intent, if I may use my own fan-created magic system as an illustration.)

I'm not sure if it would necessarily result in the destruction of the old magic system; as long as the Shard was Invested for a sufficient length of time, the effect on the Spiritual Realm might sustain the existence of Allomancy. The Spiritual Realm is time-independent, so even after someone has died their Spiritual aspect still exists there. We don't understand much of the Spiritual Realm, but it is a place of Connection. A strong Connection between a Shard and a Planet (a potential mechanism for creating a new magic system) wouldn't disappear when a Shard Divested from a system; the Shard and the planet have still had a major influence on each other. Basically, there might be enough Spiritual momentum to sustain the magic system after the Shard has left. Which could explain why Hoid can still Lightweave, which was an ability he had pre-Shattering.

But, all that is only my understanding. Some people can approach the same limited information and come up with drastically different interpretations. Some people think that each Shard has a magic system that they take with them wherever they go. Some people think that all magic systems today are forms of magic systems originally from Yolen, and are only powered by different Shards in the modern time.

At the end of the day, it's an excellent question, but we might be waiting a while to get an actual answer for it.

EDIT: By the way, welcome to the Shard!

Edited May 5, 2017 by Pagerunner

[James Baxter]

Thanks for the quick response! I had known about the worldhoppers using their systems off-planet, and that is what made me wonder if there could be 2 planets, not from the same system, that simultaneously had the same Shardholder as their "power source". 

I like your idea of being invested for a period of time. I had the paradigm of the Shardholder's effect either coming from a finite source (which would mean they could only affect one or a limited number of worlds) or infinite (and thereby would be able to affect as many as they wanted). But the idea of it being a sort of lingering effect that could become permanent if a threshold of time had been passed seems more in line with Realmatic Theory. 

[Kinnsayyy]

I feel like the fact that Hoid can still use Yolish lightweaving, even though the planet was originally invested by Adonalsium who clearly is not there anymore, could be of some significance here. Maybe it's different for Adonalsium though. 

[Yata he/him]

I think the question and answer is more complex than se could think and It very very magic system depending.

For the magic systems with a genetic component. I think the possibility of magic users will remain also After the Shard leaves (this in theory because usually the Shard leaves pieces of himself into the peoole's soul so technically speaking if the Shard disinvest...the people would not have this seed anymore).

But in the standard case, I think the magic system Will Simply be' removed once a Shard disinvest from a Planet.

The fact It is hard for a Shard to disinvest ad he have to recover the main part of his Investiture.

[Reborn radiant]

we know that a certain world hopper can use
1)awakening (I am assuming this because the side effects of breath can clearly be seen (perfect pitch that is), so I assume awakening can also be done)
2)Yolish Lightweaving. (in way of kings)
3)Allomancy (words of radiance, cofirmed by brandon)
4)Feruchemy ( more specificially feruchemical fortune)

we also see elantrian artifacts to establish connection and such working in Scadrial. I don't know if they can be considered magic though. We also know hemalurgy can be used anywhere.
Therefore, I assume that the shard doesn't need to be present for someone to use the magic system based on it.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

4)Feruchemy ( more specifically Feruchemical fortune)

More specifically the underlying Spiritual Mechanic that Feruchemical Chromium operates on. Hoid doesn't actually have Feruchemy, at least by Brandon's more recent clarifications

[Richard Kopelow he/him]

I imagine it might be possible for a shard to dump enough Investiture into a system to make magic and then move onto another system and make more magic. Brandon has said that there were spren of Adonalsium on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation, where he just dumped some Investiture. We have also seen magic in worlds without shards due to ambient Investiture so I don't see any reason a shard could create a situation like that intentionally.

Edit: This shard would probably be very weak from splitting up so much and Odium would definitely come and bite this shard's head off

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by RichardKopelow
More thoughts right after posting

[Reborn radiant]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

More specifically the underlying Spiritual Mechanic that Feruchemical Chromium operates on. Hoid doesn't actually have Feruchemy, at least by Brandon's more recent clarifications

WAIT. WHAT.
He doesn't? When was it confirmed?
damnation, I was under the assumption that he was a feruchemist all along

[+Extesian he/him]

8 minutes ago, Reborn radiant said:

WAIT. WHAT.
He doesn't? When was it confirmed?
damnation, I was under the assumption that he was a feruchemist all along

Yeah we have confirmation he's an allomancer but if you search you'll find every answer about him being a feruchemist avoids the question, like these

Quote

QUESTION

Has Hoid used his Lerasium Bead for Feruchemy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid got the bead originally because he wanted to become an Allomancer.

Quote

HEROWANNABE

Would you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

His bead? Hoid’s bead was—He originally got it because he wanted to be an Allomancer. [Note that he doesn’t actually answer the question.]

There is actually one from 2013 that says he does, but that was paraphrased and has generally been agreed to be incorrect (and someone will correct me if I'm mistaken about that one). There's is also a recent WoB saying that the lerasium bead could not have given him feruchemy but I haven't seen one explicitly confirming he didn't get feruchemy by other means (though how he could is beyond me anyway as he hasn't been spiked).

Edited May 8, 2017 by Extesian

[Reborn radiant]

Tbh, I never thought he used lerasium bead for feruchemy. I was under the assumption that aside from Yolen lightweaving, feruchemy was one of the earliest magics he learned. I was under the assumption that he learned it through a process we don't know yet. Now I kinda feel stupid! @Extesian Thank you so much for the WoBs!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

WAIT. WHAT.
He doesn't? When was it confirmed?
damnation, I was under the assumption that he was a feruchemist all along

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

There is actually one from 2013 that says he does, but that was paraphrased and has generally been agreed to be incorrect (and someone will correct me if I'm mistaken about that one).

You are correct Extesian. It was clarified last November

Quote

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Question

Is Chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using Chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

It only has the tag of 'Feruchemy', so half of us wont find it without creative use of Ctrl + F

[Ari he/him]

4 hours ago, Extesian said:

Yeah we have confirmation he's an allomancer but if you search you'll find every answer about him being a feruchemist avoids the question, like these

There is actually one from 2013 that says he does, but that was paraphrased and has generally been agreed to be incorrect (and someone will correct me if I'm mistaken about that one). There's is also a recent WoB saying that the lerasium bead could not have given him feruchemy but I haven't seen one explicitly confirming he didn't get feruchemy by other means (though how he could is beyond me anyway as he hasn't been spiked).

That quote doesn't say Hoid hasn't got access to Feruchemy. It says he didn't use a lerasium bead to get Feruchemy, a method of granting Feruchemical powers that was only a wild hypothesis in the first place. Those are two very different propositions, and the WoB you quoted doesn't contradict the earlier one you referenced. You need to be much more careful with this stuff. Unless there's some other WoB out there contradicting the first one that says Hoid uses Feruchemy to determine what planet he should visit next, you should still assume that Hoid could have some means of using luck-based Feruchemy, whether through inherent Feruchemy or through a metalmind that grants him the necessary power.

TWC's post doesn't rule it out, either, although it does open the door to a variant of Feruchemy the same way Hoid has the Yolish variant of lightweaving. (He could also have found a way to use the mechanic of Feruchemy without that specific type of metalmind, even though there's no variant of Feruchemy available on other worlds, the way that WoB is worded. All it's saying is that Chromium isn't 100% necessary)

Edited May 8, 2017 by Ari

[+Extesian he/him]

9 minutes ago, Ari said:

That quote doesn't say Hoid hasn't got access to Feruchemy. It says he didn't use a lerasium bead to get Feruchemy, a method of granting Feruchemical powers that was only a wild hypothesis in the first place. Those are two very different propositions, and the WoB you quoted doesn't contradict the earlier one you referenced. You need to be much more careful with this stuff. Unless there's some other WoB out there contradicting the first one that says Hoid uses Feruchemy to determine what planet he should visit next, you should still assume that Hoid could have some means of using luck-based Feruchemy, whether through inherent Feruchemy or through a metalmind that grants him the necessary power.

TWC's post doesn't rule it out, either, although it does open the door to a variant of Feruchemy the same way Hoid has the Yolish variant of lightweaving.

I think I was quite careful. At no point did I say that he doesn't have feruchemy. I said they're was an old one but my understanding was that the community no longer considered that likely to be a correct paraphrasing, but that someone would no doubt correct me if I'm wrong about that. I still stand happy to be corrected on that, but I base that on remembering, but not having time to find, shard discussions about that particular WoB. But I agree that I have not seen anything definitively saying he does not have feruchemy (in fact that's the last sentence you quoted), just that all the WoBs I've seen have RAFOed or avoided the answer. I'm not sure I could have given more caveats than I did or made it more clear I was happy to be shown to be wrong. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Extesian

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Ari said:

(He could also have found a way to use the mechanic of Feruchemy without that specific type of Metalmind, even though there's no variant of Feruchemy available on other worlds, the way that WoB is worded.

Further clarification (I don't care that this one happened first )

Quote

As of Secret History, are the IRE aware of Feruchemical chromium?

Brandon Sanderson

Not as fully aware - They don’t know everything.

Question

The Spiritual Feruchemical metals - are all four of those Cosmere-wide things?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer is yes. The long answer is, there are certain things such as Investiture and whatnot, that when we write the books we translate different words as the same word because they’re the same meaning. So what you’re getting it is when they use the word “fortune”, do they mean exactly the Feruchemical, and the answer is no - but it is a very similar concept.

The Spiritual Quadrant manipulates spiritual attributes. The Spiritual Realm is location independent, so an attribute that is held there can be messed with anywhere if you have a power that can touch it. Seems to fit with why all the various types of healing work in more or less the same way, since they all draw on the Spiritual Ideal/Template of Health, and it gets filtered through the Cognitive/magic type afterwards.

I imagine that's whats Brandon is saying in the WoB about Hoid. If he has F-Chromium, he could fund his prescience with it. If he doesn't, then he's got another magic that can. The Ire certainly seem to know that it can be done, and the above WoB just testified that they weren't talking about Feruchemy