The Principles of Soulcasting Immunity and Stick

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I am a stick.

 

But seriously. While we've all talked about the stick as one of our fav characters... It's time to do a real consideration about the mechanics and limitations of soulcasting.

So obviously a soulcaster uses stormlight to transform the substance of a material. I suspect that for a radiant who can soulcast, it doesn't matter what kind of gem they draw light from (unlike how it is with soulcaster fabrials).

But soulcasting can be difficult difficult. Shallan failed to turn stick into fire (even though she could apparently transform a whole boat).

 

So. What makes an object resistant to soulcasting?

1. Investiture. This should be pretty obvious, since investiture interferes with investiture. I would guess that the reason stick proved more challenging than a boat was partially because the stick was wood that was still alive, and thus more invested.

2. Connection / cognitive intent. It seems like the basic "intent" of a spren can make it easier or harder to soulcast. I would guess it is still possible to soulcast an object against its own will (I doubt the spren of the folks who attacked Jasnah in that alley really wanted to turn into fire or smoke or any of that), but more difficult (especially since human beings are invested).

 

So. What I'm laying out here is not remotely groundbreaking in terms of realmatics, but its worth doing this anyway since I haven't seen anyone give serious consideration to what can make something soulcasting immune. It's worth conjecturing what the rules of this power are, since I have no doubt Sanderson has restricted it with a set of rules.

I bet other magic users are pretty storming hard to soulcast. They are more invested, and also connected to at least one shard. I don't think you could just soulcast a voidbringer or stormclast to make it go away. Nor could you soulcast a fellow radiant into fire. And don't even think about trying to soulcast something like a shardblade, or, god forbid, nightblood.

It's also probably pretty hard to soulcast something with a really strong identity (no, I don't mean spiritual identity... more like, identity as in how you see yourself). Even though some historical artifact might be completely nonmagical and not too invested... Still pretty hard to soulcast, just because so many people have thought about the object that it has developed a more fixed self-perception.

So, living things, invested things, famous things, or connected things. All hard to soulcast. This means that some things are nigh immune to soulcasting, which is probably good since otherwise to be honest the power would be a little too strong.

[nervousnerd he/him]

I think from the other end, it also depends on the will of the person. Some Soulcasters may be more powerful naturally or some may not be able to do it in stressful conditions. For an example: Shallan was exhausted and not very confident in her abilities and proved no match for stick. Jasnah on the other hand seemed to be able to soulcast most things easily.

[A Budgie she/her]

1 hour ago, nervousnerd said:

I think from the other end, it also depends on the will of the person. Some Soulcasters may be more powerful naturally or some may not be able to do it in stressful conditions. For an example: Shallan was exhausted and not very confident in her abilities and proved no match for stick. Jasnah on the other hand seemed to be able to soulcast most things easily.

I agree with this. Jasnah was much more experienced than Shallan, so I would say the person soulcasting has an effect on things.

[Spoolofwhool]

There's a WoB that gems do matter for Knight Radiant soulcasting. 

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

Hoid probably used Stick to scratch his backside. Got all kinds of investiture up in there.

[Yata he/him]

Soulcast turns matter to other kind of matters, it's fueled by Stormlight in the right recipe and need to overcome both Investiture's interference and Cognitive's defense of the subject. More the desired matter is near to the right Essence, easier become to Soulcast it.

With enough Investiture EVERYTHING may be Soulcasted and depending on the Subject's Cognitive Resistence this need of Investiture may change.

For example :

- Stick offers a great Cognitive's defense because it was always a Stick, his own "life" was almost "I am a tree, I am a stick". It is quite hard to allow him to change.

- The Boat otherwise is of course a bigger object (but Shallan didn't change the whole boat's matter) but it "lived" a life linked to the Human and in some way it was more connected to the Sailor. The boad offered a lesser Cognitive Defense because "It wants to help the men within itself".

We have also to notice:

- Shallan has not the same amount of Stormlight in both cases

- Shallan is not a Skilled Soulcaster. Her success or failure can't be taken as relevant proofs.

[Jofwu he/him]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

There's a WoB that gems do matter for Knight Radiant soulcasting. 

Do do you have a source for that? Wondered about that for a long time.

Do we know how the gem matters? Meaning, does it matter where the stormlight comes from that you use to do the soulcasting? Or do you, in addition to stormlight of your own, need an infused gem at hand (of the correct type)?

While looking for the WoB I stumbled into this one:

Quote

Shadows of Self-London, UK

Havoc

In WoK, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from WoR that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

She would not have been able to. No one has ever asked me that before.

How does that fit into things? Why did she need to summon Pattern? Because their bond needed to be reinforced in this particular instance, because it had been a while? Or does this have implications for every time that she wants to soulcast?

[Spoolofwhool]

@jofwu Here: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=985#4

[Turtle373 he/him]

It might also have to do with the fact that sailors often personify ships, therefore granting it a stronger intelligence and sentience, and a connection to the sailors so that it wanted to help them in any way possible.

Whereas the stick is just a stick.

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Soulcast turns matter to other kind of matters, it's fueled by Stormlight in the right recipe and need to overcome both Investiture's interference and Cognitive's defense of the subject. More the desired matter is near to the right Essence, easier become to Soulcast it.

With enough Investiture EVERYTHING may be Soulcasted and depending on the Subject's Cognitive Resistence this need of Investiture may change.

For example :

- Stick offers a great Cognitive's defense because it was always a Stick, his own "life" was almost "I am a tree, I am a stick". It is quite hard to allow him to change.

- The Boat otherwise is of course a bigger object (but Shallan didn't change the whole boat's matter) but it "lived" a life linked to the Human and in some way it was more connected to the Sailor. The boad offered a lesser Cognitive Defense because "It wants to help the men within itself".

We have also to notice:

- Shallan has not the same amount of Stormlight in both cases

- Shallan is not a Skilled Soulcaster. Her success or failure can't be taken as relevant proofs.

...And that's a much better description of the two factors I was trying to get at. If the whole "cognitive intent" thing I talked about wasn't clear, the above hits the nail on the head.

Note however that I never said something could be soulcast immune, so much as just very resistant. Yes, enough investiture could do it, but it takes more sometimes. I theorize that voidbringers are hard to soulcast since they have both a fair measure of investiture and a lot of cognitive resistance. An experienced soulcaster with enough stormlight might be able to do it, but I would guess that this would be difficult enough that it is probably more practical to whack a voidbringer with your shardblade then it is to try and soulcast it.

I still do believe that the marginal amount of investiture within Stick (being a living thing) contributed to making it hard to soulcast, however. Shallan probably did have more stormlight when she soulcasted the boat, and the boat was "willing" to change... But I still think that living things probably have some inherent resistance due to their investiture. Jasnah soulcasting her attackers is an impressive show of skill (and/or having a lot of stormlight), since they were living human beings and since their cognitive aspects almost certainly did not want to be soulcast.

[Jofwu he/him]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

the marginal amount of investiture within Stick (being a living thing)

Stick is not a living thing. It's just a stick. If living plants DO have some kind of "spark of life" type investiture, I imagine it goes away when the thing dies. A stick shouldn't have any more investiture than the pinky bones of a skeleton.

[Spoolofwhool]

50 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Stick is not a living thing. It's just a stick. If living plants DO have some kind of "spark of life" type investiture, I imagine it goes away when the thing dies. A stick shouldn't have any more investiture than the pinky bones of a skeleton.

Everything has a spiritual spark of life which is not connected to it being physically alive.

[Jofwu he/him]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Everything has a spiritual spark of life which is not connected to it being physically alive.

But he's talking about some kind of investiture that sets it above "non-living" things... Like a rock. If I'm reading correctly. Do we have reason to believe a stick has more investiture in it than a rock?

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, jofwu said:

But he's talking about some kind of investiture that sets it above "non-living" things... Like a rock. If I'm reading correctly. Do we have reason to believe a stick has more investiture in it than a rock?

Probably not. The boat probably is more invested in any case because it has more connections.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

2 hours ago, jofwu said:

But he's talking about some kind of investiture that sets it above "non-living" things... Like a rock. If I'm reading correctly. Do we have reason to believe a stick has more investiture in it than a rock?

Do you know it was a dead stick?

There are plenty of other explanations for Stick not being casted... But it does kind of stand to reason that living things are a bit harder to cast. They take a bit more light and/or a bit more skill.

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Probably not. The boat probably is more invested in any case because it has more connections.

Connection is a different spiritual attribute from innate investiture... It is related in a lot of ways, but I don't think that the boat's connection to its crew makes it any more invested. If it were connected to a shard that might be different.

[Jondesu he/him]

On 2/10/2017 at 9:41 AM, jofwu said:

How does that fit into things? Why did she need to summon Pattern? Because their bond needed to be reinforced in this particular instance, because it had been a while? Or does this have implications for every time that she wants to soulcast?

I've been thinking about that one for a while, and I'm convinced it's because she was still believing her own lie about not being bonded to a spren. When she began to summon Pattern, she acknowledged his existence in a tangible way, which rebuilt their bond enough for her to Soulcast.

[Yata he/him]

45 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I've been thinking about that one for a while, and I'm convinced it's because she was still believing her own lie about not being bonded to a spren. When she began to summon Pattern, she acknowledged his existence in a tangible way, which rebuilt their bond enough for her to Soulcast.

She almost broken her bond with Pattern as a child. Without her try to call the Shardblade/Pattern the bond would be too weak to use a Surge.

[Jondesu he/him]

17 minutes ago, Yata said:

She almost broken her bond with Pattern as a child. Without her try to call the Shardblade/Pattern the bond would be too weak to use a Surge.

Exactly what I meant.

[DarkJester]

Ok. The way I always saw this was that she convinced the ship to change. It didn't want to change, it wanted to serve. When Shallan convinced it that the best way for it to serve at that point was to change, it finally gave in. The stick was another story. She just kept saying she had storm light and that the stick wanted to change... Well no... It didn't want to change. Had she convinced the stick that changing would save her life, then maybe.   I'd say the reason Jasnah is so much better at it was already explained while talking to Shallan on the boat. It's about perspective. When Jasnah says she wants something done, she expects it to be done. She speaks with authority. So I would assume that she soul casts with authority to. She leaves the item in question feeling as if it has no choice but to change. Shallan is just starting to develop that kind of authority, so it's not so easy for her. 

 

Then, another thing that keeps grabbing my thoughts is the soul stamps in the emperors soul story. It seems to me the soul casting may be very similar, though not exactly the same. The thing that sticks out to me is that for the soul stamps, it only took if the past you choose for it was believable. For Shallan I could see this concept coming into play. It's like the people she drew as who they were, only more... Perhaps when she soulcasts it's easier to do if it's into something that it could have been under different circumstances. Thats just a thought though. No real proof. Actually, if anything, the goblet to blood kinda counters this theory, because I can't even begin to conceive of a past where the goblet may have become blood instead of a cup...

[heridfel]

My opinion, after re-reading Stick's scene, is that Shallan failed to Soulcast the stick into fire because she didn't have the right intent. She starts out with a statement about herself:

"I need you to become fire."

Then she follows it up with a possibility:

"You could be fire."

After asking some questions of Stick and Pattern, her final statement/command is:

"You want to burn."

I think that last statement is the best indication of why she was failing from the start. The entire time she was in Shadesmar, Shallan was trying to light the sticks on fire using Stormlight. Her mental image was the stick catching fire (because that was what was natural to her from the material realm) rather than being fire . Rather than changing from one reasonably pure Essence (Pulp) to another one (Spark), she was trying to have the stick become consumed by fire (Pulp and Spark, fire + stick). There was no other Essence to convert, and so Stick remained a stick. In the other cases where we've had large-scale conversion (like the bandits, or the large stone, or the ship, or even the goblet), there was a relatively straightforward conversion of Essences rather than anything partial. I think it would require a lot more Stormlight or a much clearer Intent for a mixed conversion, if it's even possible at all.

I think if Shallan understood Soulcasting better, she could have picked up a rock, put it in the middle of her sticks, and changed the rock directly into fire. It would have saved more wood, too.

 

TLDR: Stick wasn't resisting Shallan's attempt to Soulcast it. Shallan was trying to create fire on the stick, and Soulcasting only converts Essences. It doesn't create them.

Edited February 18, 2017 by heridfel
Added TLDR for clarity

[Landis963 he/him]

Interestingly,  when Jasnah Soulcast her bonds away, the statement she used was "You will change."  

[Chinsukolo]

I don't wonder if her struggle to change stick was because she was trying to change from apples to oranges.  I.e. convince stick to change form a stick to just fire.  Perhaps she'd have had an easier time asking stick to "be a torch"  something the spirit of the stick can "imagine" since it's still a stick, but now a stick on fire.

[Turtle373 he/him]

On 2/20/2017 at 7:48 AM, Landis963 said:

Interestingly,  when Jasnah Soulcast her bonds away, the statement she used was "You will change."  

when was this? I haven't read this before, or i forgot either way could you elaborate

[Turtle373 he/him]

16 hours ago, Chinsukolo said:

I don't wonder if her struggle to change stick was because she was trying to change from apples to oranges.  I.e. convince stick to change form a stick to just fire.  Perhaps she'd have had an easier time asking stick to "be a torch"  something the spirit of the stick can "imagine" since it's still a stick, but now a stick on fire.

interesting concept but could a goblet imagine itself being blood, or a human being fire

[Landis963 he/him]

6 minutes ago, turtle373 said:

when was this? I haven't read this before, or i forgot either way could you elaborate

It was part of the lead-up to WoR: a preview interlude from Jasnah's PoV.  

Edited February 23, 2017 by Landis963