Some Stormlight Archive Theories and Kandra Detection Strategies

[Valtak]

Hi All, 

I have been lurking on this site (and other cosmere sites) for a while (about 2 years), reading the WoBs, reading all of your excellent theories about the Cosmere, etc. I have finally made an account because I have a few things that I want to talk to people about, and no one that I know in the flesh is very into the heavy theorizing about the Cosmere (though I have many friends who enjoy Sanderson's works). 

I haven't seen any of these particular theories around, but if I have just missed them I would appreciate being pointed towards resources where I can read up on them. I will just jump right into it. Many of these are about Ishar (the herald of the order of the Bondsmiths), as I suspect he is going to become a major player.

Theory 1: Ishar is in Shinovar 

There are a few things that lead me to suspect this. When I was reading up on how exactly a Bondsmith's oathbinding works (or rather, how we know little to nothing about how it works), I began to suspect that we have seen the effects of such a binding in first person chapters - Szeth. His compulsion to obey the holder of his Oathstone despite his extreme aversion to the acts that they command him to perform always seemed a little more than just the result of an extremely disciplined man. For example:

Quote

"Have I your Oathstone?" Taravangian demanded. "Is my word to be questioned?"
Szeth stopped swaying. His gaze locked with Taravangian's. "I am Truthless. I do as my master requires, and I do not ask for an explanation."

That sudden lucidity on Szeth's behalf seems like a man who has been tampered with. He stopped swaying aimlessly, stopped fretting, and repeated back what sounds an awful lot like an oath, an ideal ("I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.", "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.", etc). This is important when you read later in this post about my theory that the ideal's of the knights radiant were intended as a safeguard against who can form a Nahel bond, put in place by Ishar. So, it smacks of something that I already suspected Ishar had a hand in. I was thinking that perhaps there were bondsmiths in Shinovar who were imitating their herald, until I read the following quote from Szeth. This excerpt is from when he was responding to Taravangian about finding a surgebinder on the Shattered Plains:

Quote

"No, no," Taravangian said. "I have learned of this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished."

Szeth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. "One of the other seven?"

One of the seven. So, Taln's honorblade would be thought to be with him on Braize (or at least the cognitive realm parallel of Braize, but that is another random theory). Szeth obviously holds Jezrian's blade. That leaves eight remaining blades. The Shin should have eight blades left in their treasure-trove of honorblades, yet Szeth immediately discounts one as being able to "vanish". I think this is the blade that Ishar holds (note: it could also be Nale's, as he is obviously running around so you would think he has his honorblade. But, the other heralds are all active as well [they all appeared in some capacity in book 1, so I understand], just in a less active role. So, I don't think the situation with his blade would be special). I think that Ishar is responsible for the oath that makes Szeth "Truthless". 

Theory 2: Ishar created the Parshmen

I believe that Ishar is responsible for Parshmen, having neutered the voidbringers by making a binding oath among their species that they will obey. I haven't thought this one out as fully, though. For instances, I haven't figured out how the oath would pass from parents to child, but to be fair we have no idea how Parshmen (or Listeners in general) reproduce. The answer to how an oath could be hereditary could lie in the answer to how Listeners breed. Anyway, it seems to be supported here in the chapter heading of Chapter 58 of WoR.

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So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

So, this Melishi dude realized that he could use the "nature of the Heralds" to destroy the Voidbringers, i.e., have Ishar magic them into a servile race. We haven't had a POV chapter from a parshmen yet, so we can't see if their compulsion to obey is at all like Szeth or Nale (see later in this post), so I can't be certain. There is also the bit about how the Parshendi refer to the Parshmen as having lost their song. Not sure what to make of that, but it doesn't seem to support an Oathbinding.

Theory 3: Ishar caused the Recreance

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But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4

We see that he was uneasy about letting men have access to Surges. I believe that he has something to do with the ideals that must be spoken (did he put his magic voodoo down on the spren themselves, preventing them from forming a full Nahel bond unless the words are spoken? That seems to be a bit of a stretch.). Either way, I think the ideals of the knights radiant are a direct consequence of Ishar's Bondsmith-like power. I also believe that at some point he decided that he did indeed need to destroy each and every one, and likely did something to compel all of the knights to break their oaths simultaneously. Perhaps he coded in some sort of doomsday button into the original oaths that he could trigger at any time. In Dalinar's vision, the radiants were being incredibly unresponsive after they abandoned their spren (stuck their shardblades in the ground). It was as if they were being compelled or controlled by an outside force. He did say he would destroy each and every one. I don't think a Herald is strong enough to just straight up destroy the entirety of the knights radiant directly. 

Theory 4: Ishar betrayed the other heralds.

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This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 20

I actually have a lot of thoughts regarding this passage, but lets draw our attention to the last bit. One entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. First, I think that the 10 we are talking about are the heralds, not the orders, and the quote above refers to the Recreance. The reason I think that the herald who entertained great subterfuge was Ishar is that when we see Nale, he seems to exhibit the same kind of compulsive behavior as Szeth. He strongly believes that having Radiants around will kickstart another desolation (though how having people with Nahel bonds would make Taln finally crack on Braize isn't clear to me), and seems unable to change some of his views. He denies the everstorm while standing in it. I believe Ishar used some sort of oathbinding to compel him to seek out and eliminate anyone forming a Nahel bond. This could be Ishar's way of making sure humans do not regain their surges (apart from the few skybreakers that work directly with Nale). 

It is also possible that perhaps the excerpt refers to the situation we see in the prologue of way of kings. The other 9 heralds abandoned their arms and fled, but one entertained great subterfuge...perhaps the one is Taln. Brandon is constantly saying things like "the one you think is Taln" when we refer to the crazy dude who showed up at the end of WoK. It could just be that he is being coy and doesn't want to admit that this dude is a herald, but maybe it really isn't Taln. Maybe Taln never went back to Damnation. Maybe he has been playing the other 9 this whole time. I don't know, this one is particularly hairbrained.

Theory 5: Adolin will become the champion of Odium.

While I was re-listening to the books, I was trying to figure out if we already know the person who would become the champion of Odium. There were not any strong contenders. I had been thinking perhaps Szeth, but I now think other things are in store for him (I suspect he is going the anti-hero route). We know from WoB that Shallan's father was under the influence of Odium. I suspect his fits of rage were a result of this. So, I suspect that Odium's influence on men makes them experience great rage. Now, read this:

Quote

Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.
That's it.
Adolin grabbed Sadeas by the throat with his unwounded hand, slamming the highprince back against the wall. The look of utter shock on Sadeas's face amused a part of Adolin, the very small part that wasn't completely, totally, and irrevocably enraged.

 That sounds very much like Adolin was experiencing the same kind of blind rage that we have seen from Shallan's father. Afterwards, when he comes to, he is shocked at what he has done and runs off in the night. It definitely sounds like he at least had some sort of episode, I suspect it was due to the influence of Odium. I don't think you need to be a bad man to feel his influence. 

Quote

In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for executing one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy's baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace.
—From Words of Radiance, chapter 32, page 17

The enemy's baleful influence demands vigilance. I assume the enemy is Odium, and this is saying that his influence is insidious, it can creep into you unless you are constantly vigilant. We have already seen another shard capable of such kind of influence (Ruin). Adolin has already begun expressing discomfort with the fact that Shallan was a radiant. He was supposed to be the powerful one in this relationship. He used to be one of the most important people in Roshar. Now the bridgeboy AND his fiancee are both the thing of legends? I think that will grate on him. He is likely just a tad angry about that. Which is enough for Odium to find a way in. I suspect when Oathbringer comes out, Adolin's jealousy of Kaladin and Shallan will become a bigger plot point, and eventually Odium will have enough influence to corrupt him completely. 

I know I am making a lot of assumptions here, off of not very much evidence, but I think that it would just make a great story. So far, we have seen Adolin and Kaladin's friendship grow. They are on the path to being total bros. We love Adolin and Kaladin's bromance. How poignant would a final battle to cap off the first 5 books be, if that battle was between Adolin and Kaladin? Two characters who have a difficult history, two characters who we love. It would be hard to root for one over the other. It just seems...likely.

Kandra Detection

Finally, I wanted to share some ideas for how to detect a Kandra if you suspect one is imitating someone. 

The first one is related to something I read on these forums a while back. They were suggesting that you could use a Duralumin enhanced soothing or rioting to try to make someone go absolutely bonkers, and see if they react. If they don't, they are likely a Kandra (or have inhuman discipline), since Kandra are not effected by emotional allomancy. However, another idea I have that that also involves duralumin depends on how duralumin actually works. What happens if you are burning iron or steel, and duralumin, at the same time? You can burn steel or iron and not push or pull, simply to observe the blue lines. The stronger you flare your steel, the clearer lines become (we saw this with Vin vs the lord ruler, when she flared her iron to incredible levels she started to be able to make out the lines of the lord ruler's bracers even though they pierced the skin). The Kandra's spikes do not make visible lines because they are both inside the body and heavily invested. However, if you can burn duralumin and steel at the same time WITHOUT pushing steel, it would just make it so you are flaring your metal with insane intensity. Perhaps that would be enough to see the lines associated with a Kandra's spikes? You would need to test it on a friendly Kandra first, to see if it worked, but if it did it seems like a pretty easy thing to do...In fact, maybe that is why Kandra can't go near inquisitors. They have super steel vision. Maybe they can see the spikes?

The second detection method is more mundane, not requiring allomancy at all. Tensoon needed to place each hair on the wolfhound's body independently, because as we are told many times in passing throughout the books, Kandra cannot imitate hair. It seems you could just shave people's heads and see if it grows back. If it doesn't...Kandra. It obviously takes a while, but it would be a way to insure that members of your team have not been duplicated. Though perhaps the Kandra can imitate the follicle that grows the hair, even if they can't imitate hair. So it may not work. It would again require testing on a friendly Kandra, I suppose.

 

Anyway, that is what I have been thinking about. If you read through all of this, thanks for your patience. I can be a bit longwinded. I'd appreciate any comments you all have on anything I put down here. I look forward to talking with you all!

Edited January 25, 2017 by Valtak

[Fezzik]

On 4/8/2015 at 5:09 PM, Ruro272 said:

 Q: Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?
A: That was all Adolin.

And as for kandra worldhoppers, Mrall, Taravangian's bodyguard, is completely bald and can supposedly turn on and off his emotions because his master tells him to. (I-14)

[Spoolofwhool]

1. I'm of the opinion that Szeth had no magic compulsion to be Truthless. This is based on what Nale says at the end of WoR which implies very strongly that Szeth stayed on the path of his own will and that the opportunity to stop existed at any time. Regarding the missing Honorblades, my take on that conversation was that Taravangian was lying so Szeth wouldn't think Kaladin was a KR. In any case, we know that Nale has retrieved his Honorblade so it could've been half-truths.

I'll discuss the other theories later.

[Pagerunner]

Like the ideas, don't have a ton of time to comment on the implications. Just one quick thing to point out for now: Melishi is probably Ishar himself. The holy (palindrome) version of his name is Ishi, and we've seen suffixes "Talenat'Elin, Sword-Nimi) in some other Roshar cultures, so I think that we're seeing Mel'Ishi.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Like the ideas, don't have a ton of time to comment on the implications. Just one quick thing to point out for now: Melishi is probably Ishar himself. The holy (palindrome) version of his name is Ishi, and we've seen suffixes "Talenat'Elin, Sword-Nimi) in some other Roshar cultures, so I think that we're seeing Mel'Ishi.

I don't think so. The phrasing seems to be implying that he's a Bondsmith, and the Heralds aren't referred to be the order names. 

[Valtak]

John203: I hadn't read that WoB - thanks for directing me to it. That seems to nix that particular theory, as that was the majority of my (admittedly weak) support for it. I will relegate it to "personal theory that I think will happen with no real evidence." As to Mrall - I actually wasn't aware he was Kandra! That is super interesting. I knew Brandon had said there were Kandra worldhoppers around, but I hadn't realized we had identified any of them. Him being bald doesn't seem to directly provide evidence for or against the detection method, though if Kandra are indeed unable to produce such complicated microstructures as hair follicles, being bald would likely be a clever option for long-term impersonation.

Spoolofwool: I agree with you, I interpret that passage to be a quickly thought of manipulation on behalf of Taravangian. The interesting part is when Szeth is under the impression that Taravangian is being truthful with him, he thinks that it must be one of seven honorblades that have been stolen, not one of eight. Szeth recognized Nale (perhaps he saw him before in Shinovar), so perhaps he knew that Nale was out and about with his Honorblade, but again I don't yet see why Nale's situation would be unique among the heralds in that he has his blade and the others do not.

Pagerunner: I hadn't thought of that! Melishi is totally Ishar. That makes a bunch of sense.

[Spoolofwhool]

I presume Nale reclaimed the blade years ago when he decided that he was going to guide the Skybreakers once again. The others probsbly hasn't reclaimed their blades because they still want nothing to do with the Oathpact, and the Honorblades are a strong connection to it.

I'm still not seeing the Melishi is Ishar other than the name. The text seems to be implying quite strongly the other way.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Valtak]

I will admit, I am reasoning from a point of view that wants Melishi to be Ishar, so take the following with a grain of salt.

Brandon has said that the powers of the heralds are not the same as the powers of the orders they lead. They are very similar, but the Radiants get their powers from spren imitating what Honor did to make the Honorblades. So there are some slight differences. Perhaps in the passage, Ishar is making connections he hasn't made before. He has observed the "unique power" the bondsmiths have. The surges associated with bondsmiths are supposedly just tension and cohesion. Somehow, the bondsmiths use these to bind souls. In this train of thought, I am assuming that Ishar had only ever used his tension and adhesion "surges" in the physical sense, and this passage is him realizing that if the bondsmiths can bind something's spiritual aspect, there may be a way for him to use his "surges" to do so as well. Once he figured that out...Bye bye voidbringers.

 

*Edit* I just realized that this is not internally consistent with my thought that Ishar was responsible for the Ideals the KR say.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Valtak

[Khyrindor]

@Valtak I don't think Mrall is confirmed to be a kandra, and that that was just @john203's theory based on what you said. Also, was going to say that Nale definitely has his honourblade back, but they beat me to it. 

For the blade count:

"Taln" had had his in Damnation. Then when he returned to Roshar, it was somehow lost in transport. According to WoB, Hoid doesn't have it, and Dalinar's new blade is the one that was swapped out with the Honourblade.

Kaladin has Jezrien's Blade, retrieved from Szeth upon his apparent death.

Nale has his.

Which leaves the seven, unless one is indeed stolen. Ishar does seem a likely candidate. 

[Tsidqiyah]

Do we know for sure Nale has his blade back? I was under the impression that he was using an ordinary shardblade. Though he would almost certainly need access to the surges to get around like he does. So maybe a living one, or fabrials. but last I heard Brandon had only ever RAFOed if Nale had his Honorblade back.

[Pagerunner]

3 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

Do we know for sure Nale has his blade back? I was under the impression that he was using an ordinary shardblade. Though he would almost certainly need access to the surges to get around like he does. So maybe a living one, or fabrials. but last I heard Brandon had only ever RAFOed if Nale had his Honorblade back.

It's his original Blade.

[Tsidqiyah]

Thank you @Pagerunner Now i want to know about this asterisk Brandon mentions...guess we will have to wait until November

 

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, Valtak said:

Theory 1: Ishar is in Shinovar 

I cannot directly dismiss parts of this theory, but I am also of the opinion that he is bound by his honor/personal code more than anything magical.

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

Theory 2: Ishar created the Parshendi

Quoth Eshonai, Parshmen are "slaveform, the form with no spren, no soul, and no song. (...) It wasn't really a form at all, however, but the lack of any form." which is in essence, the absence of a bond, like you mentioned. As for the Listener race itself, they were made by Adonalsium. Honor even refers to them the "Old Ones" These 2 facts more or less invalidate this theory when taken together.
Parshendi is only the Alethi (and perhaps the human) term for the Listeners, not a new race. Which means that both the Parshendi and the Parshmen predate the Shards themselves. Ishar cannot have pulled some binding magic, as they still have the ability to bond Spren and become Parshendi, and they can bond Voidspren of their own free will.
Lastly, I imagine they use sexual reproduction, as most forms are asexual, but Mateform and Slaveform are notable exceptions.^[4][5]

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

Theory 3: Ishar caused the Recreance

Biggest issue with this idea is that Taravangian holds the secret that can replicate the Recreance. As a non-powered individual, that seems like a point against some magical kill switch. Additionally, you shouldn't discount the combat prowess of Heralds so easily. It is quite likely that they took on the first Desolation single-handedly, since Spren hadn't yet seen them in action to try and replicate their ability.

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

Theory 4: Ishar betrayed the other heralds.

I am very sure that the quote is talking about the Recreance, and not the Heralds. For one, that chapter is all about the Recreance. For another, the use of the words "the orders." Nalan's behavior is irrational, but keep in mind that the Heralds have cracked. Rational might not be their strong point anymore. I like the idea that the real Taln is playing them for fools, but Taln is in-fact bound to the Oathpact(Brandon has confirmed this several times.) His ability to play tricks is quite limited all things considered.

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

Theory 5: Adolin will become the champion of Odium.

john203 and that WoB deal with the biggest portion of this theory.

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

Kandra Detection

About Method One, don't forget that Kar could see the iron moving in the blood of the Obligators. I don't think Duralumin is necessary if you've reached Inquisitor level of Savanthood and practice. Now that I mention it, does the blood actually move in a Kandra body? I seem to remember open veins and split muscle without spilling blood somewhere...
For Method 2, it'd probably work, bit beyond taking forever, some people are naturally bald, which could ruin the plan.

[Valtak]

@The One Who Connects:

 

Quote

Theory 1

I have been thinking more about how oathbinding works, and I have decided that the oathbindings may have different strengths over different people. Oaths can be broken, but it becomes more difficult the more "honorable" you are. Your own willpower and sense of honor is what fuels the oathbinding. This could be why Nale praises Szeth at the end of WoR - he knows that it was Szeth's incredible will that made his oathbinding so effective. 

Quote

Theory 2

Ah, I mispoke. I don't think Ishar created the physical parshendi - I meant to say that Ishar created the Parshmen. I will edit to make it more clear. I think an oathbinding was in place, perhaps an oath to never bind another spren. Recall that Kaladin observes that the Parshendi (free listeners) act incredibly honorably, even on the field of battle. If the idea that oathbindings are fueled by a personal sense of honor is true, then I think this has a decent chance that an oathbinding could have such an effect on the Listeners as to turn them into Parshendi. I hadn't realized that Slaveform was gendered, though. Thanks for the information.

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Theory 3

Taravangian holding the key to cause a second Recreance does seem to be a big problem for this theory. It is referred to as a secret that could shatter the KR should they begin to form again (I believe, working from memory), I assume that secret is just knowledge of how to cause them to break their oaths. "Kill switch", or otherwise. I will relegate this to "something I suspect but have no evidence for".

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Theory 4

I also think that the paragraph refers to the Recreance. I think that perhaps it is saying that after the Recreance, Ishar entertained great deception on behalf of the other 9. In my theory, Ishar had something to do with the Recreance itself, and then put the mystical voodoo down on the other Heralds (explaining Nale's weird, seemingly irrelevant, obsession with stopping the resurrection of the Knights Radiant).

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Kandra Detection

Turns out Kandra do bleed. I couldn't recall, but I had a hunch I could find out where, so I just searched this quote from the beginning of The Well of Ascension:

Quote

She stumbled over to him, then paused. His nondescript body - in a servant's trousers and shirt - had been pelted with coins, and blood seeped from the several wounds.

He looked up at her. "What?" he asked.

"I didn't expect there to be blood."

Oreseur snorted. "You probably didn't expect me to feel pain, either"

Yeah, the second method would definitely have time constraint for some people. But a lot of guys wake up with some visible stubble they need to take care of. That would be easy to notice its absence. People who are completely bald would be a harder nut to crack, though almost everyone has some body hair. Good to hear that people think it would work, even if it is not that feasible.

[Spoolofwhool]

The oathbinding you mention. Is it a term you've come up with or has it appeared before and I just haven't seen it? If you are making it up, could you explain fully what you mean when you use it?

[Valtak]

 

21 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The oathbinding you mention. Is it a term you've come up with or has it appeared before and I just haven't seen it? If you are making it up, could you explain fully what you mean when you use it?

It is a term I made up to describe what I imagine the bondsmith's power to be. There is no official source on it. Sorry, I should have specified that sooner.

Basically, what I expect is that the bondsmiths is using his tension/adhesion surges in a unique way to perform a binding directly to someone's spiritual or cognitive aspect. Not to the level of altering sDNA, but reinforcing a promise that they make. Perhaps it makes them more likely to keep an oath. I call it oathbinding because it seems like an apt name for it.

[The One Who Connects]

36 minutes ago, Valtak said:

Oaths can be broken, but it becomes more difficult the more "honorable" you are.

I kinda like this idea, but there are some problems. The chief of which is making an oath that involves doing something dishonorable (which can happen very easily) What then? Edit; I don't see Ishar being involved with Szeth being made Truthless, since he was "perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way"

36 minutes ago, Valtak said:

I meant to say that Ishar created the Parshmen

Good clarification, except that he still couldn't logically have done this. All Parshmen are is Parshendi without a Spren bonded to them. Even Odium cannot always force the Parshmen to bond his Voidspren. If they have the ability to potentially resist a Shard, they can resist a singular Herald.

Quote

Being transformed, taking new forms, there is a measure of will behind it, meaning for instance, even when Eshonai took the new form, she had herself open to taking a new form. By the time she didn’t want to, it was too late. But she had made the decision, even though she’d been kind of misled in some ways. If a parshmen were even in the Everstorm, and aggressively didn't want this to happen, I'm not saying they won't, but there is room for discussion whether or not they would change there.

36 minutes ago, Valtak said:

I think that perhaps it is saying that after the Recreance, Ishar entertained great deception on behalf of the other 9.

The problem with that is that the Heralds disappeared. People don't know that they still walk the earth, and the few who do won't/haven't made that common knowledge. Then there's the part where a Herald should be able to resist another Herald and all that, etc... Scratch that line entirely, Ishar doesn't have his Honorblade, so he cannot use his Oathbinding ability as it's what you think to be a combination of the Bondsmith Surges.

30 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The oathbinding you mention. Is it a term you've come up with or has it appeared before and I just haven't seen it? If you are making it up, could you explain fully what you mean when you use it?

They very well may have come up with it on their own, but it's something people have theorized about for a while on here, having power over bonds. It's been in the theory section of the Bondsmith coppermind page for ages. Granted, the Stoneward page has an idea that Tension can give them powers like a Lurcher from Mistborn so...

Edited January 25, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Ari]

So, to the OP, let's take this point by point.

1. I agree with @Spoolofwhool, Nale has essentially shot down your theory about Szeth specifically at the end of WoR. Nale would not be impressed if he knew Szeth's obedience to his oaths was simply due to Ishar, and Nale is in a position to know what Ishar's powers are.

2. While not an unreasonable guess that the Bondsmiths made some of the Parshmen promise to lose their odiumspren and perhaps not rebond them in the future, I'm not certain I personally buy that speculation. I'm not 100% sure Bondsmiths actually have that power just yet, (the one you refer to as Oathbinding) or even that Ishar does. I suspect that something else is going on there, and as @The One Who Connects points out, the simplest explanation is that the Parshmen simply expelled their Spren after the previous desolation, so we don't actually need your theory to explain anything here. You're kinda obliged to explain why the Parshmen expelling their spren wasn't the case in order to justify your theory being correct, as it's such an obvious alternative explanation for Parshmen existing.

3. I don't buy Ishar being the cause of the recreance just yet. WoR (the in-universe one) hasn't been contradicted with more reliable information that the recreance wasn't caused by the discovery of a certain secret that the epigraphs allude to. I'm favourable to @cometaryorbit's idea in this thread atm as to what the basis of the terrible secret was, although of course it needs fleshing out. Do you have some evidence that the in-universe WoR is wrong here?

4. On Ishar betraying the other Heralds: It's okay to say WoR (again, the in-universe one) is wrong, as it's specifically said not to be an entirely reliable source, but here you're simply misinterpretting it and using it to back up your point. Only the orders have a "membership." 1 of the 10 is clearly referring to one of the orders betraying the others, and the infighting that resulted, because as far as we are aware no heralds have died, (and that would be the only way to interpret the "membership destroyed" bit if you did believe the whole excerpt you quoted is referring to Heralds not Orders) thus that entire sentence makes no sense referring to them. You're perfectly welcome to your headcanon on this one, I'd just suggest you find something other than that epigraph from the in-universe WoR to justify it.

My personal suspicion is that this quote is talking about the Skybreakers betraying the other nine, (as the only remaining organisation based on an order of the KR they would actually make that quote somewhat relevant) but I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. I'm definitely certain that if it's an accurate part of the in-universe WoR, that it's talking about one of the orders.

5. It's fair to think Odium manipulated Adolin into killing Sadeas, in fact I kind of like it, given the sharp departure from Adolin's normal character that the murder was. (not that Sadeas didn't do enough to get Adolin to attack him without any manipulation, of course) That said, we've got WoB that Adolin is the less important Kholin brother. I'm not sure being Odium's champion would be less important than whatever Renarin's role turns out to be, but certainly keep an eye out on that theory, I don't recall anything that would absolutely shoot it down entirely, it would just require Renarin to be an Even Bigger Deal.

[Spoolofwhool]

30 minutes ago, Ari said:

5. It's fair to think Odium manipulated Adolin into killing Sadeas, in fact I kind of like it, given the sharp departure from Adolin's normal character that the murder was. (not that Sadeas didn't do enough to get Adolin to attack him without any manipulation, of course) That said, we've got WoB that Adolin is the less important Kholin brother. I'm not sure being Odium's champion would be less important than whatever Renarin's role turns out to be, but certainly keep an eye out on that theory, I don't recall anything that would absolutely shoot it down entirely, it would just require Renarin to be an Even Bigger Deal.

Quote

RURO272

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That was all Adolin.

[Source]

Still room for the theory, but it would be stretching the definition of manipulated a bit farther, since there's a lot less room for Odium to have been involved. 

[Ari]

Nice catch, that definitely rules out the specific incident the OP pointed to.

That said, this post is definitely worthwhile just for the suggestion of random headshaving to detect Kandra, lol.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Ari

[Spoolofwhool]

37 minutes ago, Ari said:

Nice catch, that definitely rules out the specific incident the OP pointed to.

That said, this post is definitely worthwhile just for the suggestion of random headshaving to detect Kandra, lol.

This is very true.

[Valtak]

@The One Who Connects:

Yeah, there are still some things that we would need to learn before I can fully support the theory. I would imagine that you need to believe that the thing you swear to do is honorable. Personal belief and how you see yourself seems to be a big theme in different magic systems. As to Szeth fundamentally betraying his people, I already assumed that. We know from Nale that the Shin see the Herald's as their gods (or at least worship them). In my idea, Ishar (or another herald, I suppose) rules Shinovar. When Szeth betrayed his people (my personal pet theory is that he began the process of forming a Nahel bond himself, which if Nale's reaction to such things is any indication, the heralds are very against), he was punished by their leader and made Truthless. In this thought, being made Truthless is the highest punishment handed down by Ishar (or again, whoever leads). 

@The One Who Connects @Ari: 

The way I now see it (a little differently than when I first wrote this post, but that is why I came to these forums in the first place - to get more information to modify my views), oathbinding (if it exists) is more of a voluntary process than I originally envisioned it. The oathbinding doesn't force you to do anything, it just makes you more likely to hold to an oath that you already see as honorable. My imaginings for the Parshmen are as follows: After the previous desolation, the Listeners ejected their voidspren and were horrified by what they did. You can see vestiges of that horror remaining in modern day Parshendi - they absolutely DO NOT want to get voidspren again. They swore to never bind a spren again, and this oath was reinforced by an oathbinding. Parshmen can rebond spren (so I understand), they just choose not to. I find it hard to believe that after 4,500 years, the parshmen are still feeling the "sins of their fathers" strong enough to choose to stay in absolute slavery. I imagine they didn't think they would end up a slave race when they first swore not to bond a spren. The theory, as it stands now, is that there is an oathbinding helping to ensure that choice.

@The One Who Connects @Ari: 

Yeah, the Ishar causing the Recreance theory and Ishar betraying the others theory are dead. I was under the impression that the heralds were leading their orders until the Recreance, which is not true. I am throwing my support behind the theory you led me to, Ari. It has led me to see some awesome parallels I hadn't noticed before. I will think about them further and make a post sometime later.

[nervousnerd]

Something I found interesting is that Jezrien mentions that Ishar believes that Taln will allow the Oathpact to continue with his torture alone. It makes me wonder if he was the one who kind of persuaded the rest to lay down their swords. He seems to be the one that the others go to for a plan (even if he is not their leader outright).

Spoiler

This is kind of shown by Nale apparently following another of Ishar's plans in Edgedancer.

 

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, Valtak said:

After the previous desolation, the Listeners ejected their Voidspren and were horrified by what they did. You can see vestiges of that horror remaining in modern day Parshendi - they absolutely DO NOT want to get Voidspren again. They swore to never bind a Spren again, and this oath was reinforced by an Oathbinding.

My biggest gripe with this might come down to how I interpret their motivations, but so be it. (post note: the formatting might be painful)

The reason you give for why they would go with an Oathbinding is also the main reason why they would not do such a thing. Voidspren represent Odium being in control of them, and as you mentioned, they want none of that. Being bound by Ishar's Oathbinding is just as bad, since they would be robbed of the free will to bond Spren.

• Without a bond, Parshmen are "barely of intelligence,^[22]" which is a loss in its own right, but the Listener Songs are an oral history. Parshmen rarely speak, and would likely lack the ability to remember all of the songs, one of which had at least 280 stanzas. I couldn't even remember all of that with normal mental capacity. They mention Desolations in their songs, implying that they've been under his control before, but have escaped/survived so..
  • Odium's control might eventually destroy them. Never bonding again will destroy their way of life.
• Being able to hold different forms gives Parshendi a level of individualism that we as Humans cannot possess. Humanity seeks to escape conformity at every turn, and the same should hold true for any sentient species. Even something as simple as a name makes you unique, and that starts you down that road.
• On the other hand, the Rhythms give the Parshendi a level of connection we cannot possess. They also help fit the speaker/thinkers state of mind or mood. Dullform and Parshmen have no rhythms, which is a somewhat similar loss to losing the Forms, despite the difference between the statements I gave them.

While you could refute these reasons for why they wouldn't all become Parshmen because we know they did commit to that course, consider this: Their decision put the potential loss of their entire way of life as a better alternative than allowing others to control them again. Them having just made a decision like that, I don't think they would've allowed anyone any measure of influence over them.

On a sidenote, not all of them became Parshmen. Tribes of Dullform existed in animosity for a long time, giving rise to the "Assassin in White" tradition before unifying and moving the the Plains. Meaning that not all of them were bound by this theoretical oath idea.

[Valtak]

@The One Who Connects

You bring up many good points. However, I think a potential flaw in the reasoning is assuming that all Listeners would decide as one. You are absolutely correct that, to some, the idea of submitting themselves to a compulsion (even if it is completely voluntary) would be terrifying, and out of the question. If anyone would have trust issues, it would be ex-voidbringers. However, I can imagine another camp of Listeners who simply do not trust themselves to not repeat the atrocities that happened. Listeners who are wracked with guilt, and are willingly submitting themselves to a compulsion to safeguard against the horrors being repeated. 

We have a false view that it must have been a large portion of the population which took an oath (again, if such a thing even happened) because parshmen far outnumber free listeners. However, there have been thousands of years since such an act occured (or not). If the humans have been using them as laborers for even a quarter of that time, their numbers would flourish. Humans think them almost akin livestock, and likely breed them the same way. You can never have too many parshmen! By the time modern day rolls around, their would be far more parshmen than free listeners.

 

 

Anyway, I admit this is only one possibility among many. It could be that all Listeners reverted to the mateform/dullform life voluntarily, and then humans just captured some dullform from the scattered tribes, figured out how to force a transformation into slaveform, and the rest is history. Either way, I look forward to learning more about the history of the Listeners in coming books.