Oathbringer Update Six

[Argent he/him]

Considering we have some pretty rabid fans, and nobody can remember seeing this exact WoB - or produce it - I am very much inclined to say we should stop repeating it. If there is, in fact, another Windrunner coming in Oathbringer, we'll know (not) soon enough. 

[Vikro he/him]

My guess' soft the new windrunner(I'm acting as if it's true) would either be Roshone(I think the interaction between him and Kaladin would be interesting, but we did see the interaction with people he hates in WoR), Adolin(though I feel his place is NOT as a radiant), or perhaps Rock( it'd be interesting seeing be forced to fight by his God, even though it goes against his culture). Though, how funny would it be if it was Wit?

[Spoolofwhool]

29 minutes ago, Vikro said:

My guess' soft the new windrunner(I'm acting as if it's true) would either be Roshone(I think the interaction between him and Kaladin would be interesting, but we did see the interaction with people he hates in WoR), Adolin(though I feel his place is NOT as a radiant), or perhaps Rock( it'd be interesting seeing be forced to fight by his God, even though it goes against his culture). Though, how funny would it be if it was Wit?

I doubt any spren would want to bond Hoid. 

Spoiler

There's probably so much messed up stuff going on with him at the spiritual level, they won't even think twice before giving him a wide detour.

 

[Guest]

What a mess!!!

I apologize for creating such a polemic. I am about 99% sure Brandon did state we would see another Windrunner take his oaths in Oathbringer and I will find the reference, once again. 

It may take a while though  Be patient folks.

1 hour ago, Vikro said:

My guess' soft the new windrunner(I'm acting as if it's true) would either be Roshone(I think the interaction between him and Kaladin would be interesting, but we did see the interaction with people he hates in WoR), Adolin(though I feel his place is NOT as a radiant), or perhaps Rock( it'd be interesting seeing be forced to fight by his God, even though it goes against his culture). Though, how funny would it be if it was Wit?

I always find it amusing to read so many people stating they do not want Adolin to become a Radiant, but about anyone else, including Elhokar, is fine (I am not saying you specifically made such claims, but it has come around very often). This is baffling to me. I personally wish to see characters move up as Radiants if such trajectory makes up for an interesting story to read and not a redundant page filler. 

To me, Adolin fits the bill, though certainly not as a Windrunner.

I hope not Roshone. I personally feel his story arc will be over soon and I have no desire to see him evolve into a more prominent character. Rock would be interesting, but I just don't feel it within my guts. My guts could be wrong though, Rock do have a viewpoint in book 3.

[Humpty he/him]

Maxal I agree with you on this I think he is on the road to becoming one. I think he his in the process of being "broken" as we speak. It started with the death of his horse.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Maxal I agree with you on this I think he is on the road to becoming one. I think he his in the process of being "broken" as we speak. It started with the death of his horse.

I have once linked Adolin's character to the Prince Charming trope: dashingly handsome, blond headed, blue eyed, mighty warrior in standing proud in a shinning armor, yielding a magic sword mounted on his pristine white stallion. There is a lot of imagery involved in drafting Adolin's character and I for one do believe it was done on purpose. Not at first as Brandon 

Now, the horse is dead. I see it as a symbol. The white stallion is such an iconic item killing it appears to me as clear foreshadowing for Adolin to lose his former status. It is the disbanding of the trope: what happens when Prince Charming is made irrelevant in a world where he does not fit?

I personally find this potential story so interesting it overshadows all others.

[Humpty he/him]

I think he has a tough road ahead of him. I wouldn't use the word overshadows but I think it will be nice for him to have eat some humble pie so to speak. I wonder what seeing his brother become a true badass is going to do to his ego. It will be a good story none the less not my favorite but interesting all the same.

[Jofwu he/him]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

It is the disbanding of the trope: what happens when Prince Charming is made irrelevant in a world where he does not fit?

And it's not just the horse. His shining armor and magic sword are swiftly becoming knock-off versions of the real thing, and his princess needs no saving (she saved him in the end of WoR).

Edited February 14, 2017 by jofwu

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Humpty said:

I think he has a tough road ahead of him. I wouldn't use the word overshadows but I think it will be nice for him to have eat some humble pie so to speak. I wonder what seeing his brother become a true badass is going to do to his ego. It will be a good story none the less not my favorite but interesting all the same.

Something interesting came my way recently... Apparently, Adolin used to be jealous of Renarin because of all the attention he got (which oddly coincide with many character theory making I have been making). While this was when both brothers were very young, I would hazard myself into saying feelings we have as youths never truly go away and while they may may dormant for a long period of time, they can resurfaced, if the right trigger buttons are being pushed. In other words, it isn't rare for grown-ups to suddenly be faced with forgotten feelings they developed as children upon encountering a similar endeavor or a similar context. These tend to be... powerful and hard to get over. 

So while Prince Charming had seemingly everything going on for him, it seems the one thing he craved for was the one thing which was denied to him: attention which to a young child often is the equivalent of love. I thus don't see Adolin growing envious of his brother's powers (he never was into his character's motivations), but he might resent watching his father (his aunt, Bridge 4 and potentially the king as well) pander endlessly on Renarin once their new status become known which is consistent with how I have been reading him. 

Obviously, I am extrapolating quite a bit and there is no way to tell if Brandon will capitalize on this or not, but were he to do it, I think it would round up the character in an interesting way. It would sure add an additional layer and I love the idea that, just because you are "normal" and just because you haven't been "traumatized", it doesn't mean everything in your life is picture perfect.

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

And it's not just the horse. His shining armor and magic sword are swiftly becoming knock-off versions of the real thing, and his princess needs no saving (she saved him in the end of WoR).

Yes, I forgot to add the bout about the princess not needing to be saved: he is a powerless knight made obsolete by the arriving of more powerful, more formidable and more impressive knights. Also, he doesn't even get to save the girl... Instead, he is the one constantly needing to be saved by others.

I personally find the imagery Brandon has going on here is very interesting which is one other reason why I hooked up on Adolin's character. I once had a very lengthy discussion with one other reader as to how Adolin was a play out of the obsolete trope of Prince Charming, typically a voiceless, nameless character.

[Oversleep]

Adolin's Law: As an online discussion about Stormlight Archive grows longer, the probability of Adolin's character arc being disputed approaches 1.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Adolin's Law: As an online discussion about Stormlight Archive grows longer, the probability of Adolin's character arc being disputed approaches 1.

 It's been a long time since anyone has thrown at me the good old Adolin's law. This is what happens when innocent people make one random comment... 

[+Extesian he/him]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

 It's been a long time since anyone has thrown at me the good old Adolin's law. This is what happens when innocent people make one random comment... 

I've always found the fascination with Adolin fascinating. I get it, I just don't share it. He usually seems to me like the most one-dimensional character in Stormlight, good but not great, likeable but not loveable, brave but not crazy, stubborn but not, well, crazy Maybe it's because he's not broken. Or weird.

But boy do Sharders love him!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I've always found the fascination with Adolin fascinating. I get it, I just don't share it. He usually seems to me like the most one-dimensional character in Stormlight, good but not great, likeable but not loveable, brave but not crazy, stubborn but not, well, crazy Maybe it's because he's not broken. Or weird.

But boy do Sharders love him!

Why the Adolin fascination? I would be hard pressed to explain it without weighting down the thread with a lengthy text  I will thus try to be brief.

Where some readers see a simple, but not overly interesting "one dimensional" character, many see a multi-layer one having a story of his own to tell, if only given the chance. Typically, those readers tend to be the ones being either tired or not overly attracted to Kaladin's character and/or the ones who are looking for "something else" than yet another "under-dog with a sad backstory". It isn't rare those readers also end up being the ones feeling Kaladin is the one-dimensional character and not Adolin, sometimes thinking the boundary between "having a trouble pass" has been mixed with "having an interesting personality". While most agree Adolin doesn't have a heartbreaking backstory, there are those who feel he is more unpredictable while offering more interesting to explore layers.

Adolin's character is about pressure, expectations, the desire to fit in, to be the one everyone assumes he ought to be, about conforming to rules. It is about not being the one everyone sees, it is about not being broken while oddly enough not being able to be oneself. My theory is readers having pass history with performance anxiety, with trouble making friends despite endlessly trying, with having everyone judging them for what they appeared to be and not who they really are, with having people think they have no depth merely because they have an outgoing personality usually end up being those attracted to the character.

Needless to say all of this accumulated into one moment where Adolin destroys his "story-telling Prince Charming" image at the same as he knifed good old Sadeas. For several readers, even those who might not be attracted to the character to begin with, what happens next is among the most anticipated story arcs of Oathbringer. Why? Because Adolin's story isn't bond by fantasy story telling rules: he doesn't have to be the hero, he doesn't have to keep the moral high-stand. He can just be Adolin and for many this is more interesting than yet another archetype, no matter how well executed. Try as hard as we can, we still have no idea what is going to happen to him.

Thus, for many Adolin isn't a one dimensional average character: he is nothing less but the Stormlight Archive stand-out character bursting with potential.

[+Extesian he/him]

God explanation @maxal I'm firmly in the camp of living Kaladin because I always love the natural but broken hero. I mean Kvothe is my favorite character in fiction! But yeah I see that appeal with Adolin and undoubtedly his story is getting more interesting. He's probably actually more realistic than a lot of characters in fantasy. I just often love the fantasy of Fantasy. On my next reread I'll have to watch him more closely as a character rather than a plot-point!

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Extesian said:

God explanation @maxal I'm firmly in the camp of living Kaladin because I always love the natural but broken hero. I mean Kvothe is my favorite character in fiction! But yeah I see that appeal with Adolin and undoubtedly his story is getting more interesting. He's probably actually more realistic than a lot of characters in fantasy. I just often love the fantasy of Fantasy. On my next reread I'll have to watch him more closely as a character rather than a plot-point!

I think you are explaining quite well how diverse fantasy readership has gotten. While we all read fantasy for escapism, we all come from various backgrounds which makes us attracted to various items within the stories we all read and enjoy. I love to read characters with a realistic feel plunged within a fantasy world where the rules of our own do not apply. I'll admit I used to read fantasy just for Fantasy, but I eventually ended up wanting a more diverse experience. 

Hence, characters such as Adolin are gold mines for me because he feels so realistic he could live next door.

[Andy92]

I also agree Adolin is a pretty relatable character for someone that lives in a fantasy world. I think the way his character ends in WoR with Sadeas adds a new dimension to him. It'll also be interesting to see how he develops as one of the major characters that doesn't become a KR (for now at least) while a lot of people around him including his father and fiancée are.  

[Humpty he/him]

I wonder if he was ugly would he get the same level of attention?

[Krandacth]

1 hour ago, Humpty said:

I wonder if he was ugly would he get the same level of attention?

Well, he would from me, though that would make him a far worse fit for the prince charming trope that has been discussed, and so his meta-narrative would be greatly diminished. Nevertheless, assuming that all in-world characters treated him as they have (probably implausible, but necessary to reduce variables), I would still find his character interesting for all the reasons stated by @maxal* regardless of the 'ugly'ness attributed to him.

Of course, if he was ugly and the in-world characters treated him accordingly, he would be an entirely different character... Making any comparison of fandom attention meaningless.

*I don't see him as THE standout character of the series, but I value his importance, character and development on a par with the 'main' characters, despite his lesser 'screen time'**.

**This is 'screen time' as discussed with regard to POV page count. I still maintain that a large part of the value and character development of Adolin is produced from other POVs in which he appears, glued together with snippets of internal monologue to give context to his actions.

PS: It should be noted that I'm a fan of Parlin in Warbreaker, so... Maybe I just read too much into under-represented characters

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Humpty said:

I wonder if he was ugly would he get the same level of attention?

If he were ugly, then he wouldn't be the same character: much of Adolin's character description passes through the fact he is seemingly perfect in every visible way.

Take his endless string of courtships, it just wouldn't be the same story if he weren't so handsome. We wouldn't think much of it besides labeling every single lighteyed girl superficial for rejecting Adolin purely based on his physical looks. He would then have a visible flaw, a visible hardship and potentially a source of former brokenness as he would have been rejected based on something he cannot control: his looks. As it is, Adolin's track record is so awful for someone so desirable on every single point (rich, powerful, handsome and nice) we are left wondering what did he do to repel so many young women. Since there are no visible reason for all the eligible young women of Alethkar to have systematically rejected him, then he must have done something.... terrible to them. He also wouldn't be this unreliable narrator where he constantly wonder what it is he has done when we do know he is the only one to blame, most of the time. We also wouldn't wonder why he keeps doing it, why he keeps sabotaging those relationships, why he isn't even aware he is doing it as if he were ugly, the answer to these questions would be easy. He is ugly.

Therefore, Adolin's flaws when it comes to personal relationship would have morph from being character driven to being externally driven. Maybe there would be reader who'd pity him, but he wouldn't come across as the picture perfect description of a charming trope with a hidden vulnerability only the careful ones can see. 

It is hard to guess how the fandom would have reacted to Adolin had he been ugly as he wouldn't have been the same character nor would he have had the same trajectory. Also, he offing of Sadeas wouldn't have carried the same weight had he been imperfectly ugly. What makes so many readers react to Adolin's last scene is the fact Brandon basically had the nicest kid on the cast do the most horrifying act we have seen so far. In other words, Sadeas's death is much talked about not because he is dead, but because it is Adolin who's done it. Had it been any other character or had this character been any different, then this scene likely wouldn't have morphed into nothing less but one of the most discussed story arc since the release of WoR.

14 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Well, he would from me, though that would make him a far worse fit for the prince charming trope that has been discussed, and so his meta-narrative would be greatly diminished. Nevertheless, assuming that all in-world characters treated him as they have (probably implausible, but necessary to reduce variables), I would still find his character interesting for all the reasons stated by @maxal* regardless of the 'ugly'ness attributed to him.

Of course, if he was ugly and the in-world characters treated him accordingly, he would be an entirely different character... Making any comparison of fandom attention meaningless.

*I don't see him as THE standout character of the series, but I value his importance, character and development on a par with the 'main' characters, despite his lesser 'screen time'**.

**This is 'screen time' as discussed with regard to POV page count. I still maintain that a large part of the value and character development of Adolin is produced from other POVs in which he appears, glued together with snippets of internal monologue to give context to his actions.

PS: It should be noted that I'm a fan of Parlin in Warbreaker, so... Maybe I just read too much into under-represented characters

Ever since the release of WoR, Adolin's popularity has done nothing but increase. It is safe to name him a "fan's favorite" and the fact he did end up being one of the most discussed character within the cast, including all of the main characters surely is enough to refer to him as a "stand-out" character. He might not be the only one, but he sure is one and he sure is one of the most major ones. In fact, I would be hard pressed to call any other character a "stand-out", but Adolin.

As for his page content, I would argue there are two lines of thought. There are those readers who love character development and since they love Adolin, they want him to get more viewpoints so he'd come across as a more round up character. They also want him to earn his own story arc, to be the main protagonist of his story and not just the supporting one within other character's story arcs. There are ample clues within the text wanting the Adolin other sees isn't the Adolin who truly is. Therefore, to rely so much on third person's perspective to define him is to deprive the readers from reading a real character arc when it comes to Adolin. Then again, there are those readers who feel viewpoints have to be relevant to the existing action and if a character isn't participating in the ending climaxes, then he shouldn't get those viewpoints. Since Adolin hasn't been given a defined role within the story, then those readers are perfectly content with whatever page time Brandon comes up with. 

I am obviously among the first group: I love character development and I would climb the steps of the Montreal Oratory on my knees a hundred times just to get more Adolin into SA3. I also feel it is tantalizingly painful to know other characters are allowed to have meaningless viewpoints just because they serve their character development. Kaladin sure has a lot of those.

So all in all, on this particular point, I fear I am bond to disagree with a lot of people.

[dionysus]

I think one reason for Adolin's popularity stems from him being a foil to the internal struggles of other viewpoint characters. He is a good pallet cleanser for Kaladin and Shallan, especially in book 1. Even though I love Kaladin and tolerate Shallan, imagine how depressed you would feel after an extended reading session of WoKs if there was no Adolin.

 

I think Adolin also plays on the loyal friend trope too. The supporting character always backing the heroes, very few flaws, pushing the people around him to greatness just by his loyalty and belief in them but never directly the source of greatness. He often dies but the hero learns from his death and comes out stronger. Of course here we are actually getting his lengthy viewpoints so we know it is going to play out to be more complex than that, and Adolin himself has hints of complexity we want to explore.

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by dionysus

[Guest]

On 2/15/2017 at 6:13 PM, dionysus said:

I think one reason for Adolin's popularity stems from him being a foil to the internal struggles of other viewpoint characters. He is a good pallet cleanser for Kaladin and Shallan, especially in book 1. Even though I love Kaladin and tolerate Shallan, imagine how depressed you would feel after an extended reading session of WoKs if there was no Adolin.

 

I think Adolin also plays on the loyal friend trope too. The supporting character always backing the heroes, very few flaws, pushing the people around him to greatness just by his loyalty and belief in them but never directly the source of greatness. He often dies but the hero learns from his death and comes out stronger. Of course here we are actually getting his lengthy viewpoints so we know it is going to play out to be more complex than that, and Adolin himself has hints of complexity we want to explore.

 

It has come up in other discussions: many find Adolin's down-to-earth approach refreshing within the story. On one side, you have Shallan whom is constantly lying to herself, omitting large chunk of reality which can be frustrating. On the other side, you have Kaladin whom is distorting reality in order to justify his negative feelings which can be annoying. On the last side, you have Dalinar whom is downright ignoring reality because it suits him better to blindly obey to his visions which can be eye-rolling. Having Adolin who tells us things as he sees them without any hidden intentions is refreshing.

For the rest, I'd rather Adolin does not die just to give one of the "main protagonist" a "moment". I would also love if the "loyal friend" could have a story of his own.

[AerionBFII he/him]

On 2/14/2017 at 2:39 PM, Humpty said:

I think he has a tough road ahead of him. I wouldn't use the word overshadows but I think it will be nice for him to have eat some humble pie so to speak. I wonder what seeing his brother become a true badass is going to do to his ego. It will be a good story none the less not my favorite but interesting all the same.

I would find this interesting to see, I'd like to see how this would effect his character growth. Renarin has always been in the background but always highly supportive of Adolin never letting jealousy get the better of him, with Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, his betrothed Shallan and his friendly rival Kal all Radiants i want to see how he will react.

Im sadly one of those that find Adolin a rather one-dimensional character, don't get me wrong i don't dislike him. I'm more neutral toward him than anything.

[AerionBFII he/him]

On 2/17/2017 at 3:42 AM, maxal said:

It has come up in other discussions: many find Adolin's down-to-earth approach refreshing within the story. On one side, you have Shallan whom is constantly lying to herself, omitting large chunk of reality which can be frustrating. On the other side, you have Kaladin whom is distorting reality in order to justify his negative feelings which can be annoying. On the last side, you have Dalinar whom is downright ignoring reality because it suits him better to blindly obey to his visions which can be eye-rolling. Having Adolin who tells us things as he sees them without any hidden intentions is refreshing.

For the rest, I'd rather Adolin does not die just to give one of the "main protagonist" a "moment". I would also love if the "loyal friend" could have a story of his own.

Hmmm i get the sense he might be your favorite character.  

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

Hmmm i get the sense he might be your favorite character.  

What gave me away? 

[AerionBFII he/him]

Just now, maxal said:

What gave me away? 

Your disguise was perfect....... except for one thing:

I have a particular set of skills.

Skills I have acquired over a very long Shard career.

Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.

If you let it go now, that'll be the end of it.