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Will Adonalsium return?


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We have seen from Harmony that it's possible for one vessel to hold multiple shards. We've also generally assumed that splintering a shard is bad. We haven't really seen a specific "goal" of the Cosmere yet.  I was wondering if maybe a single person (perhaps Hoid?) would ever combine all of Adonalsium? Then they could perhaps compete with the God Beyond.

Edited by Figberts
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I think that it most certainly is possible or at least some characters think so  

It has been  hinted by hoid and others , plus Sanderson has invested heavily in the concept to not have characters at least atempt to reform him.

The real question is whether they  will succeed or not 

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I think down the line when its time for the good forces of the cosmere to unite, the easiest way would be to have characters from the books be the vessels Shards. None of the original vessels would be alive, replaced by characters like Sazed. This would be an excellent way Brandon to bring everyone together, as I'm sure Shards can sense the presence of other Shards, they would see what over doom lies ahead and unite somewhere(vague I know, but it's a long way off lol). Then these new vessels would have the scenes that introduce their worlds to each other.

Obviously, for this to work, their would need to be separate vessels, a representative from each cosmere shard world. So unless, it happens at the very end in order to stop the "evil" force, I don't see Brandon putting all the shards in one person, as this seems the obvious route. I do think there will be combo shards though like Harmony. Because if Odium doesn't get splintered, they're going to have to combine that shard with another in order to nullify it's mission to destroy.  

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My question would be as to what effect that would have on the planets that bore the shards themselves, as many of them have been physically altered by the presence of the shards. Would this remove all spren, and therefore all of the things they affect, such as Greatshells? My fear is that in combining the shards there would be devastation across the worlds as the powers that have shaped and flown through them were suddenly removed.

Sel would have an interesting effect, I believe.

I think it is entirely possible, as long as the splintered shards could be gathered up, and I could see this destruction being part of the sacrifice to save the Cosmere at some point. Very interesting theory!

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Aluminumfoil Hat Approaching: Originally Adonalsium might not have had an identity as we know it, an awareness. We also know of the opposing force to Adonalsium, only in that it exists. Maybe the original vessels shattered Adonalsium to take its power not so much out of greed but rather what they believe to be an urgent need to actively combat this anti-force in a way that a nonaware entity, regardless of its power, was incapable of doing. It could be building back up to all of the power being reunited in one vessel, granting the original power a sense of self it previously lacked. 

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15 minutes ago, Arken Threadlurker said:

Aluminumfoil Hat Approaching: Originally Adonalsium might not have had an identity as we know it, an awareness. We also know of the opposing force to Adonalsium, only in that it exists. Maybe the original vessels shattered Adonalsium to take its power not so much out of greed but rather what they believe to be an urgent need to actively combat this anti-force in a way that a nonaware entity, regardless of its power, was incapable of doing. It could be building back up to all of the power being reunited in one vessel, granting the original power a sense of self it previously lacked. 

I like this. Maybe they thought in shattering Adonalsium they would also get rid of this "evil" force, thinking that the "evil" force and Adonalsium had a "can't exist without the other" type relationship.  

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20 minutes ago, Arken Threadlurker said:

Aluminumfoil Hat Approaching: Originally Adonalsium might not have had an identity as we know it, an awareness. We also know of the opposing force to Adonalsium, only in that it exists. Maybe the original vessels shattered Adonalsium to take its power not so much out of greed but rather what they believe to be an urgent need to actively combat this anti-force in a way that a nonaware entity, regardless of its power, was incapable of doing. It could be building back up to all of the power being reunited in one vessel, granting the original power a sense of self it previously lacked. 

Arcanum Unbound Spoilers

There are references in Arcanum Unbound that Adonalsium was a person, including Khryss, who is creating the Ars Arcanum. However, what you have said may have some support... she says that some thought it was the only good option left to them.

Edited by Blainejstephenson
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1 minute ago, KereDerek said:

I like this. Maybe they thought in shattering Adonalsium they would also get rid of this "evil" force, thinking that the "evil" force and Adonalsium had a "can't exist without the other" type relationship.  

Would we then have shards of this evil force? Since Adonalsium was shattered, would that have done the same to the evil force? Unless, of course, they were wrong in that assumption and there is an evil looming force greater than any shard ready to make Odium look fun...

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The force opposing Adonalsium is very likely to just be the group who decided to Shatter it. The way the question in that WoB was worded gave Brandon a lot of wiggle room. There is a second WoB where Brandon clarifies that "force" could mean many different things.

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One problem I see in this: How do you account for the Shards that are not currently held by a Vessel such as the Dor, which is a combination of two Shards' powers and resides in the Cognitive Realm? It appears to be too powerful and unstable for anyone to really have a good shot of taking it up...

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15 hours ago, Figberts said:

Just wondering - it's clearly possible for one vessel to hold two shards. So I was wondering if maybe a single person (perhaps Hoid?) would ever combine all of Adonalsium? If splintering is bad, wouldn't this be good?

Someone was asking a similar question at a recent signing I was at, and Brandon made it clear that was a very good question to ask, although he wouldn't say if it was possible or not. If it's a part of the ultimate plan for the cosmere, then we won't be seeing anything definitive about it for a long time, most likely.

8 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

One problem I see in this: How do you account for the Shards that are not currently held by a Vessel such as the Dor, which is a combination of two Shards' powers and resides in the Cognitive Realm? It appears to be too powerful and unstable for anyone to really have a good shot of taking it up...

It'll require buy-in from the Shards (maybe not all of them, maybe enough can force the remaining ones to go along). I'd expect one of them would be able to reverse what Odium did, drawing the Investiture back into the Spiritual Realm, allowing it to coalesce (if it hasn't already) and be taken by a new Vessel.

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2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Someone was asking a similar question at a recent signing I was at, and Brandon made it clear that was a very good question to ask, although he wouldn't say if it was possible or not. If it's a part of the ultimate plan for the cosmere, then we won't be seeing anything definitive about it for a long time, most likely.

It'll require buy-in from the Shards (maybe not all of them, maybe enough can force the remaining ones to go along). I'd expect one of them would be able to reverse what Odium did, drawing the Investiture back into the Spiritual Realm, allowing it to coalesce (if it hasn't already) and be taken by a new Vessel.

I suppose that's a good way to get around it. Should be interesting to see where Brandon goes with this.

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13 hours ago, Blainejstephenson said:

My question would be as to what effect that would have on the planets that bore the shards themselves, as many of them have been physically altered by the presence of the shards. Would this remove all spren, and therefore all of the things they affect, such as Greatshells? My fear is that in combining the shards there would be devastation across the worlds as the powers that have shaped and flown through them were suddenly removed.

Sel would have an interesting effect, I believe.

I think it is entirely possible, as long as the splintered shards could be gathered up, and I could see this destruction being part of the sacrifice to save the Cosmere at some point. Very interesting theory!

Yes some shards have invested themselves in their planets and beyond but remember that Adonalsium had already invested in some planets before being shattered, so some spren, animals, humans, and other races already existed. It is possible that by investing power some of the shards are slightly weaker but I don't think it is necessarily enough to prevent reforming Adonalsium itself. Investing may have been a natural think that Adonalsium did before the shattering that is not done in a less natural and more decisive way but is still being done.

If they were going to take the power from every invested object in the cosmere though, I suppose that might even make the new combination of shards even more powerful technically.

13 hours ago, Arken Threadlurker said:

Aluminumfoil Hat Approaching: Originally Adonalsium might not have had an identity as we know it, an awareness. We also know of the opposing force to Adonalsium, only in that it exists. Maybe the original vessels shattered Adonalsium to take its power not so much out of greed but rather what they believe to be an urgent need to actively combat this anti-force in a way that a nonaware entity, regardless of its power, was incapable of doing. It could be building back up to all of the power being reunited in one vessel, granting the original power a sense of self it previously lacked. 

I think like others said this would likely end up creating smaller "evil shards" and probably not remove the opposing force if it existed. Also, we can obviously see that with Odium's creation there are technically more "evil shards" now that there were then.

3 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

One problem I see in this: How do you account for the Shards that are not currently held by a Vessel such as the Dor, which is a combination of two Shards' powers and resides in the Cognitive Realm? It appears to be too powerful and unstable for anyone to really have a good shot of taking it up...

I believe there are WoBs stating that shattering is possibly reversible but I can't think of or find any specifics right now. It does make sense that if you can combine shards then you can also somehow combine their component parts. It just likely isn't something that is easy.

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14 hours ago, Blainejstephenson said:

My question would be as to what effect that would have on the planets that bore the shards themselves, as many of them have been physically altered by the presence of the shards. Would this remove all spren, and therefore all of the things they affect, such as Greatshells? My fear is that in combining the shards there would be devastation across the worlds as the powers that have shaped and flown through them were suddenly removed.

I think the shards would continue to influence the worlds even though they have been combined, for instance Ruin and Preservation kept influencing Scadrial, though they didn't influence it as much as the shards on Roshar did, even though they were combined into Harmony

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15 hours ago, Blainejstephenson said:

Would we then have shards of this evil force? Since Adonalsium was shattered, would that have done the same to the evil force? Unless, of course, they were wrong in that assumption and there is an evil looming force greater than any shard ready to make Odium look fun...

I'm not entirely sure that the opposing force is something on the level of Adonalsium. it just had to outclass anything the living people in the physical realm were capable of dealing with. It could just be another Cabal like the original shatterers, not necessarily an anti-Adonalsium.

The main point I'm trying to shape my tinfoil hat into is that maybe they shattered Adonalsium not to destroy it or improve themselves, but out of some need to grant that power source awareness. It just seems that out of the Shardholders we've seen or heard spoken of, only Rayse seemed to be a genuine dick before the Shattering, and in any group of over 4 people there is always at least one dickhead. Ati and Leras seemed to be pretty good buddies, if not brothers or lovers before the power they took up changed them. Hoid says Tanavast was a fine enough fellow, granted that's Hoid so take it with as much salt as you'd like. I feel like they had a reason to take the power but afterwords things go horribly horribly wrong, and we get the current situation out of that. I'd probably be willing to bet that Hoid was the one who screwed it up too, and that's why hes going around trying to do whatever hes trying to do. He's sticking to the original plan to grant the full power of Adonalsium a mind. 

 

Again, no real concrete evidence for this that I can think of, it just seems like "16 dudes got greedy and stole gods power for the fun of it" doesn't really seem as nuanced as these things seem to be generally.

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On 11/01/2017 at 0:54 PM, Figberts said:

Just wondering - it's clearly possible for one vessel to hold two shards. So I was wondering if maybe a single person (perhaps Hoid?) would ever combine all of Adonalsium? If splintering is bad, wouldn't this be good?

Hoid's speculation on "Gibbletish" in Way of Kings is pretty clear on the downsides, really. Recombining the powers wouldn't give you Adonalsium back, it'd give you a new vessel with something akin to the powers of Adonalsium, and you'd need to be able to rely on the new Vessel holding it to not act as a tyrant.

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26 minutes ago, Ari said:

Hoid's speculation on "Gibbletish" in Way of Kings is pretty clear on the downsides, really. Recombining the powers wouldn't give you Adonalsium back, it'd give you a new vessel with something akin to the powers of Adonalsium, and you'd need to be able to rely on the new Vessel holding it to not act as a tyrant.

Do we know that, given all the powers combined and a new Adonalsium reformed, this would still need/want a vessel? I think the key to this thread is wether or not Adonalsium was a "Shard" with a vessel (very unlikely) or it was a force on it's one.

I argue that, given the WoB that Adonalsium created humans, it could not be a human. Could it be from a different species? Yes, but that's just kicks the problem further in time... And who created this other species? My bet is that Adonalsium is akin to the Cristan/any other monotheist religion you prefer  Good. He created the Cosmere. Whether He did it alone or other forces are into play depends on the interpretation of the force opposing Adonalsium question, but Brandon was been very vague on that...

 

A great question to ask Brandon would be if it is possible to combine just parts of Shards... What is the result of this? A small new combined Shard?

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Facts and educated guesses intermingled here:

I suspect, that the fainlife that Kyriss hinted at is at the root of why 16 people decided Adonalsium needed to be shattered. 

I also suspect, that the Red Rip is that fainlife expanding even to other stars. That is why Hoid thinks it is so important to recreate Adonalsium, even important enough to destroy Roshar. While others look at this problem, and think the solution is more shattering, eg. Odium. 

Note however, Hoid has not made any effort to pick up an entire shard. He just gets little bits of investment, just enough that he can use each shard. Recombining each shard would be too difficult, because there is too much interferring investiture. But if you combine them when you are just a magic user, then combining shouldn't be hard. Once he has done that, it is just a matter of getting enough investiture. 

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On 1/11/2017 at 8:57 AM, turtle373 said:

I think the shards would continue to influence the worlds even though they have been combined, for instance Ruin and Preservation kept influencing Scadrial, though they didn't influence it as much as the shards on Roshar did, even though they were combined into Harmony

I agree with the shards continuing to influence worlds even when combined.

 

However, I disagree about Ruin and Preservation having less influence on Scadrial than Roshar's shards. They literally made the planet and all life on it. They have manipulated the environment, weather, and the forms of investiture on the planet. The planet has moved its orbit under their power. By comparison, as far as we know, the three shards mucking about with Roshar have been comparatively non-interventional.

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That probably has something to do with the fact that Ruin and Preservation are complete opposites, and so if one didn't get involved the other would. Honor and Cultivation are different, but agree somewhat. As a result, it was more of a 2 vs 1 situation so less happened. Honor and cultivation knew that if they weren't involved it would be okay because the other could do something, and Odium knew that he couldn't get much done (until that whole Honor shattering thing). And now, Cultivation is probably devistated because she loved honor, so that's why she's not doing anything.

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Adonalsium is sometimes refered to as a person. Specifically as "he" or "him" 

I think Adonalsium had a vessel that is now unequivocally dead.

SO even if all 16 were gathered into a new vessel. It would be different to the original because the vessel would be different and many of the shards have been badly affected in various ways.

 

Also the original adonalsium seems to have been a unified whole. not a conglomeration of 16 conflicting pieces like a new one would probably be

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On 12/01/2017 at 11:16 PM, dgenio8 said:

Do we know that, given all the powers combined and a new Adonalsium reformed, this would still need/want a vessel? I think the key to this thread is wether or not Adonalsium was a "Shard" with a vessel (very unlikely) or it was a force on it's one.

I argue that, given the WoB that Adonalsium created humans, it could not be a human. Could it be from a different species? Yes, but that's just kicks the problem further in time... And who created this other species? My bet is that Adonalsium is akin to the Cristan/any other monotheist religion you prefer  Good. He created the Cosmere. Whether He did it alone or other forces are into play depends on the interpretation of the force opposing Adonalsium question, but Brandon was been very vague on that...

 

A great question to ask Brandon would be if it is possible to combine just parts of Shards... What is the result of this? A small new combined Shard?

Well, to date the only way we know to combine powers is for the same Vessel to hold more than one at a time, and all the WoBs we have have implied that leaving the power without a Vessel causes it to Splinter, and Adonalsium was originally held by someone, who was killed in order to Shatter the power, so I'd be rather surprised if there were any way to recombine all of the powers without a new Vessel.

As for combining small parts of a Shard's power or multiple Shards' powers, Brandon sorta talks about that when he talks about Slivers of Adonalsium in the Mistborn annotations. Suffice to say that there are lasting effects to having an amount of power somewhere between that of say, a Mistborn and that of a Shard.

 

17 hours ago, Full Metal Rithmatist said:

Adonalsium is sometimes refered to as a person. Specifically as "he" or "him" 

I think Adonalsium had a vessel that is now unequivocally dead.

SO even if all 16 were gathered into a new vessel. It would be different to the original because the vessel would be different and many of the shards have been badly affected in various ways.

 

Also the original adonalsium seems to have been a unified whole. not a conglomeration of 16 conflicting pieces like a new one would probably be

Yeah sometimes Adonalsium refers to the power of Adonalsium, and sometimes it refers to the Vessel that held that power. Context will disambiguate, similar to how Ruin sometimes refers to the power itself, and sometimes to Ati after he took the power.

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