Theory on how to kill the Lord Ruler without removing his metal-minds

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

A bucket of molten aluminum. He wouldn't see it coming because of the aluminum, and since you can't heal from aluminum inflicted wounds while the aluminum is still there, he would be unable to heal the damage caused by the molten metal. The melting point of aluminum is 1,221 degrees Fahrenheit, so you would need an inconspicuous container that could hold it long enough for you to get close to him. The best time would likely be during one of his processions. After you get the first bucket on him, simply form a reverse fire-fighter line.

If the parade isn't a good option, you could lure him into a trap, and then pour a huge bucket on him (like those amusement park rides, only lethal). In order for this to work you would need to ensure there is no metal in the trap, otherwise he might become suspicious of lines pointing to the ceiling. 

Typing this suddenly made me think of the Wicked Witch so here you go:

[Ironeyes]

Problem is I'm pretty sure his gold compounding would still keep him alive despite the molten aluminum. We know from Alloy of Law that it can keep your body running even if you can't immediately heal the injury. And the Lord Ruler has survived similar attacks before. The guy walked away from being burned alive at least twice, decapitation at least once, and a million other things besides. But if you can keep him there long enough, it might be able to melt the goldminds and then he could die. I'd say possible, if extremely difficult. 

[Sallin Zeras]

11 minutes ago, Ironeyes said:

Problem is I'm pretty sure his gold compounding would still keep him alive despite the molten aluminum. We know from Alloy of Law that it can keep your body running even if you can't immediately heal the injury. And the Lord Ruler has survived similar attacks before. The guy walked away from being burned alive at least twice, decapitation at least once, and a million other things besides. But if you can keep him there long enough, it might be able to melt the goldminds and then he could die. I'd say possible, if extremely difficult. 

Agree with @Ironeyes. I mean, the guy is one of the most powerful characters we have ever seen in Brandon's books excluding Shards. If Miles could resist like a 100 bullets and Wax an explosion, just imagine TLR's power, he was like ten times as powerful as Miles, Wax, and Wayne all combined.

[Spoolofwhool]

Yeah, you can't heal around aluminum, so as long as the aluminum is in the wound, the wound wouldn't heal. However, any other part of the body could still be maintained with gold feruchemy, so you would really only get somewhere once it starts burning holes in the muscle and the aluminum gets in there, otherwise the burns would still heal since it would be heat doing damage, and the aluminum would just be on the surface. 

Also, there is the issue that it assumes that one bucket would incapacitate him and somehow lock him down from doing anything, which I honestly doubt happening. The moment he realizes that there's an attack with aluminum all he has to do is a massive soothing to just deaden everyone or a massive fear riot to clear the people away, then he'll get time to recover. Ultimately, the procession idea wouldn't work.

That leaves the bucket in the ceiling idea, but I doubt it as well. Consider. Assuming you somehow manage to make it work, and you somehow manage to lure TLR to your trap, chances are that he's going to have some number of Steel Inquistors with him. So you would have to somehow distract or incapacitate a number, probably at least four, steel inquisitors to carry through the attack.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Assassin in Burgundy]

But if you could melt off his flesh and then have the aluminum cool around him, then his skin wouldn't be able to reform, basically killing him. 

[Yata]

25 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

But if you could melt off his flesh and then have the aluminum cool around him, then his skin wouldn't be able to reform, basically killing him. 

As he had still Healing in the Goldmind he would not die...he may slowly get rid of the allumin.

Also notice that He may use Heat Feruchemy to reduce the damage he will suffer from molten Allumin...to make the Healing cheaper

[Spoolofwhool]

31 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

But if you could melt off his flesh and then have the aluminum cool around him, then his skin wouldn't be able to reform, basically killing him. 

If he has pewterminds he could probably do a compounded tap and break the shell. Also, as I pointed out, it operates on the assumption that you could actually get enough aluminum poured on him, since all he would need is the first bucket before he locks down everyone around him with emotional allomancy. 

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I was thinking that since the wound was being caused by aluminum, it would also nullify the lack of pain effect caused by gold compounding, and that this would help incapacitate him since he probably hasn't felt pain in hundreds of years. While he was disabled by the pain of being burned alive, you could simply keep pouring on more buckets (this is for the small bucket version). Even though he has been burned alive before, that was just with fire, not with a substance that actively prevents him from healing. Since the aluminum prevents him from healing, that means that all of his health will have to be dedicated to keeping himself alive, which would become increasingly difficult as the aluminum damages more and more critical areas. For the big bucket version you would get the added benefit of suffocating him/burning his lungs, and since there was no mention of him having bendalloy metal minds he would have difficulty breathing as well. He would essentially be entombed, incapable of healing while the aluminum is in his wounds, and on his way to having a lack of oxygen issue.

10 hours ago, Ironeyes said:

it might be able to melt the goldminds and then he could die. I'd say possible, if extremely difficult. 

I actually checked the melting point of gold, and it is at least 700 degrees higher, so this would be unlikely. However, since most of his metal-minds are in jewelry, which is attached by easily meltable flesh, I was thinking that he might lose contact with a few of his metal-minds, decreasing the amount of health he could use.

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

chances are that he's going to have some number of Steel Inquistors with him. So you would have to somehow distract or incapacitate a number, probably at least four, steel inquisitors to carry through the attack.

This was the biggest problem I thought of. I imagine you would have to do something like what Kelsier did in order to get his attention and distract the Inquisitors, but that would negate the "minimum effort" aspect of this plan.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Faceless Mist-Wraith

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

Also notice that He may use Heat Feruchemy to reduce the damage he will suffer from molten Allumin...to make the Healing cheaper

That is a good point, I had not thought of that. I guess you would have to rely on his own overconfidence in his own power, after all he let himself burn in that story with the fire, even though he easily could have walked out without any injuries.

[Yata]

8 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

That is a good point, I had not thought of that. I guess you would have to rely on his own overconfidence in his own power, after all he let himself burn in that story with the fire, even though he easily could have walked out without any injuries.

yes, but once he see problems He may began to seriusly take counteractions. You have to remember that TLR was overconfident in a context where the world worked almost in the parameters he allowed, in TFE almost all the menaces to him where hidden to the knowledge...If this wasn't true, he would be more caution in his action (like He probably was in the early year after his Ascension, when He didn't developed the Compound and any allomancer was on Elend's level

On another point I saw you point the "pain factor", I think he may overcome it tap all his "touch sense" in a Tinmind to prevent it.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Yata

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I was banking on the pain keeping him from thinking clearly and using those counter-measures before the damage was done. If you really want to poke holes in the theory, there is also the fact that he might notice the deluge of lineless metal and just steel-sprint out of there before it even hits the ground. At which point he will be furious and probably tear you apart.

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

On another point I saw you point the "pain factor", I think he may overcome it tap all his "touch sense" in a Tinmind to prevent it.

Can you store the sense of pain in Tin? I was not aware of that.

[Yata]

17 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was banking on the pain keeping him from thinking clearly and using those counter-measures before the damage was done. If you really want to poke holes in the theory, there is also the fact that he might notice the deluge of lineless metal and just steel-sprint out of there before it even hits the ground. At which point he will be furious and probably tear you apart.

Can you store the sense of pain in Tin? I was not aware of that.

The "pain" is actually your touch sense...it's not a separate thing

EDIT: I just thinked to a funny counter-move.

The Melted Allumin hits TLR, He uses the Heat Feruchemy+Healing to made the allumin solid again and then tap much more from his Atiummind to become a Child and be able to stay away from the Allumin. In this stable state he finish to heal his would and at surprise (when almost all in the outside may think it is the end). He emerges powerful from the Aluminium (of course yelling "Bazinga!") and the revenge begins

Edited December 11, 2016 by Yata

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

That is interesting, I hadn't thought about them being the same, but it makes sense.

11 minutes ago, Yata said:

The Melted Allumin hits TLR, He uses the Heat Feruchemy+Healing to made the allumin solid again and then tap much more from his Atiummind to become a Child and be able to stay away from the Allumin.

I don't think turning into a child would help him in this situation, since the aluminum would attach to his skin. His best method would probably be bronze to minimize the damage.

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

In this stable state he finish to heal his would and at surprice (when almost all in the outside may think it is the end. He emerges powerful from the Aluminium (of course yelling "Bazinga!") and the revenge begins

The idea of The Lord Ruler, one of the most serious, deadpan, characters in the cosmere yelling Bazinga! is hilarious. Thank you for that mental image.

Just imagine, while Kelsier is confronting TLR:

Kelsier: I am the one thing you can't kill. I am-

TLR: Bazinga!

Kelsier: ...What?

TLR: The last 1000 years were a prank man! And you totally fell for it! You should see the look on your face. Hilarious!

[Demiandre]

I think that touch and pain are separate. Actually, we have more than 5 aristotelian senses. The consensus states at least 7. If the nociception is considered an additional sense to the 5 (even 7) main physiological senses, then the LR would have to have a particular Tinmind to store it. (if it is the same in the Cosmere)

But setting a trap with molten allumin might offer you an edge to throw an alluminum arrow, or ram him with Alluminum lances/spikes.

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

I think that touch and pain are separate. Actually, we have more than 5 aristotelian senses. The consensus states at least 7. If the nociception is considered an additional sense to the 5 (even 7) main physiological senses, then the LR would have to have a particular Tinmind to store it. (if it is the same in the Cosmere)

But setting a trap with molten allumin might offer you an edge to throw an alluminum arrow, or ram him with Alluminum lances/spikes.

You can store multiple sense in the same tinmind, just like how a single piece of metal can store separate charges from multiple feruchemists. The charges are all separate but still count towards the limit of the metal. Aluminum coated weaponry would work, except you would have to cripple him in the first shot, otherwise he would be able to enact a large number of counter-measures.

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was thinking that since the wound was being caused by aluminum, it would also nullify the lack of pain effect caused by gold compounding, and that this would help incapacitate him since he probably hasn't felt pain in hundreds of years.

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was banking on the pain keeping him from thinking clearly and using those counter-measures before the damage was done.

I don't think gold compounding causes no pain, it's just that Miles had undergone pain so much because he was so careless as a result of being able to compound gold that his body just lost the ability/need to feel pain. Even so, he might not feel pain naturally because he has gone through a similar experience as Miles, where his body has just naturally lost the ability to feel pain. In any case, even if he does, two spears through him didn't faze him, one bucket might not, especially since he can quickly mitigate the pain through feruchemy and allomancy.

 

 

[Demiandre]

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

ou can store multiple sense in the same tinmind

I remember otherwise, and the coppermind states the same, did it change ?

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You can store multiple sense in the same tinmind, just like how a single piece of metal can store separate charges from multiple feruchemists. The charges are all separate but still count towards the limit of the metal.

I'm fairly sure it has been stated somewhere that you need a separate tin mind per sense stored.

I thought that the painless effect might be one of the additional "effects" that was mentioned in the BoM Arcanum. Since both Miles and TLR showed signs of pain immunity (ignoring spears and bullet wounds) it seemed like a good guess that that was the effect caused by being a gold twinborn. Since it would be a magical effect it would be neutralized by the aluminum, and since TLR probably hasn't felt pain in close to a millennia, being scaled by molten metal would be like going from 0 to 200 in one second.

@Yata made a good point though on how he could avoid most of the damage by storing heat.

 

[Yata]

34 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I thought that the painless effect might be one of the additional "effects" that was mentioned in the BoM Arcanum. Since both Miles and TLR showed signs of pain immunity (ignoring spears and bullet wounds) it seemed like a good guess that that was the effect caused by being a gold twinborn. Since it would be a magical effect it would be neutralized by the aluminum, and since TLR probably hasn't felt pain in close to a millennia, being scaled by molten metal would be like going from 0 to 200 in one second.

A fullborn like TLR has no access to the "effects" (it's something that happen with "a few powers" if you have too power you has not access to the effects, called also perks or resonances) therefore if both Miles and TLR had this, its not the Gold-Gold Twinborn's Resonance

Edited December 11, 2016 by Yata

[Eki]

I'm pretty sure the painlessness is just an effect of pain receptors being dulled and dulled due to repeated overstimulation, and not actually anything magical. The same can happen in our world, to some extent.

[Assassin in Burgundy]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

If he has pewterminds he could probably do a compounded tap and break the shell. Also, as I pointed out, it operates on the assumption that you could actually get enough aluminum poured on him, since all he would need is the first bucket before he locks down everyone around him with emotional allomancy. 

He wouldn't be able to do the pewtermind thing without flesh. He would need to have some muscle mass to do anything. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

He wouldn't be able to do the pewtermind thing without flesh. He would need to have some muscle mass to do anything. 

He could already have pewterminds with stored charges. Also, he would still have some muscle mass. I don't the aluminum annihilating all muscle mass.

2 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I'm fairly sure it has been stated somewhere that you need a separate tin mind per sense stored.

True. But I feel like if multiple feruchemists can store charges in the same metal, and the nicrosilminds of the medallions could store two abilities concurrently, I don't see why you couldn't compartmentalize a tinmind and store different senses in the same metal. 

[Yata]

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

True. But I feel like if multiple feruchemists can store charges in the same metal, and the nicrosilminds of the medallions could store two abilities concurrently, I don't see why you couldn't compartmentalize a tinmind and store different senses in the same metal. 

Probably because different feruchemists in the same metal, store the same thing (same procedure/coding with only different passwords), only the identity is different. While to store different kind of sense you are actually "different coding" (I hope my analogy makes sense)

Edited December 11, 2016 by Yata

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I checked the copper mind:

Quote

Tin stores senses. Tapping a tinmind gives the Feruchemist enhanced sensory perception. However, this will not allow the Feruchemist to see in the dark; rather, it enhances what eyesight/senses are already there. In addition, tapping tin will not make the mists more translucent, as an Allomancer burning tin would. Tapping sight causes the edge of the Feruchemist's vision to blur, and sacrifices immediate field of vision in favor of a more distant, binocular view. Tapping too much sight can induce nausea.^[7] Multiple tin minds are required to store multiple senses.

Unless this has been changed, I don't think a Feruchemist can only use one metal.

[Spoolofwhool]

19 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I checked the copper mind:

Unless this has been changed, I don't think a Feruchemist can only use one metal.

I'm aware of what the coppermind says, but don't forgot that this is due to in-world observations. Also, since nicrosil can have multiple types stored in a single metal, it doesn't seem to make much sense for tin to not be able to either.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

When you say nicrosil can have multiple types stored in a single metal, what stores are you referring to? I'm not sure what you mean.