Conspiracy Theory: Helaran is Alive

[AerionBFII he/him]

6 hours ago, LeahAstonished said:

This is definitely another possibility, I still like the idea of mine better so I will go with Helaran didn't tell Hoid anything about Shallan for those theories.

A couple questions to flesh out your timeline:

- What do you think would be Helaran's motivation for wanting to join the Skybreakers?

- If Helaran has bonded a spren, other than Mraize saying he went to "seek out the Skybreakers", is there additional evidence to why this would be a Highspren rather than a spren from a different order? Taravangian's thought that he could train Shallan made me think he might share at least one surge, other than sucking in stormlight is there much a Skybreaker could teach a Lightweaver? Also, I have no specific evidence, but my general feel of Helaran's personality didn't fit with Nale and Szeth.

I assume his main motivation for joining The Skybreakers was Revenge against his father for killing his mother. Colour it up pretty as much as you want and call it "Justice" but that's basically what he wanted. He showed no signs of Surgebinging that i could recall, which makes me feel he didn't manage to attract one at that point in time. Nale has a Honorblade and has no need for a Spren this is what makes Honorblades so terrifying and so far Szeth hasn't attracted one either, It makes it most likely to be a Highspren because he's joined the Skybreakers and they will be pounding their logic into his head and following their Skybreaker creed. I personally think Szeth is highly suited for the skybreakers. Skybreakers and Windrunners sounded like rivals, two sides of the same coin. The Skybreakers follow the law to the T, Laws mean nothing to the Windrunners the do what is right. Both of those paths are right but severely different. I can totally see where all the confrontation started. Everything Szeth did was at the behest of his peoples Laws, he was Truthless... and now...

HE'S COMING TO A SHINOVAR NEAR YOU!!!

 

[maxal she/her]

Apart from being fun to theorize on, can someone explain to me what is the narrative purpose of Helaran not being dead? Wouldn't this rank among the "we thought they were dead, but oh surprise, they aren't" characters group which is already quite crowded with both Szeth and Jasnah? Wouldn't it be completely anti-climatic if he suddenly turned out not being dead?

While it might not be entirely impossible, I find Helaran being alive serves no valid purpose within the main narrative while him being dead serves many more.

[Jondesu he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Apart from being fun to theorize on, can someone explain to me what is the narrative purpose of Helaran not being dead? Wouldn't this rank among the "we thought they were dead, but oh surprise, they aren't" characters group which is already quite crowded with both Szeth and Jasnah? Wouldn't it be completely anti-climatic if he suddenly turned out not being dead?

While it might not be entirely impossible, I find Helaran being alive serves no valid purpose within the main narrative while him being dead serves many more.

The only way I can see it fitting into the narrative is if Helaran is somehow involved in Shallan's progress as a Radiant or else in one of the secret societies.  I do agree that it would push back against the idea of death being more final; in any series like this there will be characters that come back from being apparently dead (Brandon certainly set the scene for that with Kelsier, albeit in a unique way), but the more often he does that, the less impact real deaths will have, so he knows to avoid it (he's said that, of course).  I would be very surprised if Helaran turns out to be alive.

[maxal she/her]

Just now, Jondesu said:

The only way I can see it fitting into the narrative is if Helaran is somehow involved in Shallan's progress as a Radiant or else in one of the secret societies.  I do agree that it would push back against the idea of death being more final; in any series like this there will be characters that come back from being apparently dead (Brandon certainly set the scene for that with Kelsier, albeit in a unique way), but the more often he does that, the less impact real deaths will have, so he knows to avoid it (he's said that, of course).  I would be very surprised if Helaran turns out to be alive.

Yes, this is what I am mostly worried about: Brandon has "resurrected" and/or used the "death isn't final" and/or the "he/she wasn't really dead, dead" tropes one time too often. Even if Helaran was involved in Shallan's training and/or any secret society, I still do not see the purpose of him not being dead. There are ample of people left to carry on the secret society growing story arc: Helaran is not needed.

I fear one of the reasons so many people are theorizing about dead characters not really being dead (Sadeas, Helaran, Tien) is linked to the author having over-used the trope. I never saw people arguing so much about clearly dead people in other fandoms: probably the fact dead, dead a few characters turning out not being dead, dead is generating the hype.

Death needs to be final once again. I can understand why he used the trope with Jasnah: it served a purpose. I have a harder time with Szeth as the purpose it served could have been used in a less frustrating story arc. Helaran though: no purpose.

[Jondesu he/him]

Just now, maxal said:

I have a harder time with Szeth as the purpose it served could have been used in a less frustrating story arc. Helaran though: no purpose.

I think I'm probably in the minority camp (with you perhaps, it looks like) that really wishes Szeth had died and stayed dead.  His part in the story seemed like it was over, and now it's just being stretched out.  I'm sure Brandon has a very cool purpose for him, and I may completely change my mind once he reveals it, but I find myself wishing both that he'd left the original ending (Kaladin killing him) and that he hadn't been resurrected.

[maxal she/her]

2 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I think I'm probably in the minority camp (with you perhaps, it looks like) that really wishes Szeth had died and stayed dead.  His part in the story seemed like it was over, and now it's just being stretched out.  I'm sure Brandon has a very cool purpose for him, and I may completely change my mind once he reveals it, but I find myself wishing both that he'd left the original ending (Kaladin killing him) and that he hadn't been resurrected.

I absolutely agree with you. I was perfectly fine with Szeth being dead and I felt it marked the ending of his character arc. I didn't mind getting his flashbacks, but truth is I am growing very vary of whom Brandon has chosen to focus his story on. In all honesty, try as hard as I can, I cannot muster any level of excitement over reading an Eshonai and/or a Szeth-centrism book. I thought they worked well as side characters: they just aren't engaging enough to me, as a reader, than other already existing character to be promoted to the main seat.

Every time I think of the "Szeth is redeeming himself and becoming a Radiant" story arc it is highly likely we are getting, I am inwardly cringing. I understand Brandon means for the Radiants to be ill-chosen people, unlikable people, but I fear in his endeavor to portrayed them as "atypical", he is slowly crossing the line towards "uninteresting" and/or "difficult to emotionally engage with". It might be I am a different kind of reader from Brandon's major readership, but I wish to like who I am reading about, I wish to root for those characters and while I might end up rooting for Eshonai, I haven't found her to be an "engaging enough character" to warrant a main focus.  

This has been my major personal source of concern for the future of SA: I am fine with Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar being main protagonists, I am however not fine with everyone else chosen so far. While I'll admit a few might grow on me, too many simply aren't people I want to spend 1000 pages reading about. That's my problem: I loved the characters the author has chosen so far, but I don't like whom he said he would chose in future books. 

This being said, I do see the purpose: Shins and Parshendis are to play a role, hence we need a character to focus on these arcs, but it might be I'd rather read about other characters. It might be I don't need to read about every single group of people: I'd rather an existing character was used to focus on these arcs with Eshonai/Szeth being the supporting cast.

I also prefer the original ending because I feel the new one makes Kaladin appear too God-like good: he wouldn't kill a known enemy attacking him, trying to kill him and everyone he swore to protect, he wouldn't kill a threat to the world just because he has gotten above killing. To me, this was really anti-climatic.

[AerionBFII he/him]

Sorry guys but i disagree. Szeth is important to the Storyline as a POV into the Skybreakers, The Black Sphere, Nale, the Stone Shamans and last but not least Nightblood XD. Personally he's one of my favorite characters, he's by far one of the most complex and interesting characters to read about. Obviously this is all personal preference and varies from one reader to another but he's basically the definition of Screwed Over and the quandary of ethical right and moral wrong. Living his life in Shinovar with little contact with the outside world sheltered and a naive the only laws he knows of are the Laws of the Shin, then warning his people of the VB and the KR return and the threat the posed he was falsely judged and sentenced to a life as a Truthless and given his Honorblade. A slave consigned to do whatever he was told by whomever held his stone, without even the escape of suicide. He obeyed the laws of the Shin and served as Truthless dutifully despite how much it tore him apart, and the massacres he committed, even to the point of madness. Then he finds out he was right the entire time and everything he had done could have been avoided. I WANT A REVENGE ARC!!! 

 

@maxal I don't think the characters chosen for the flashbacks immediately become the focal point of that book. SA will carry on with Kal/Dalinar and Shallan as the main focus and the the story will flow as usual, It will mostly just be sprinkled with flashbacks, obviously later Eshonai will have a more important role to play but she'll mostly remain a side character but the main Listener. Im not that hyped about Eshonai as a character either to be honest but it's a small price to pay.

 

Don't even get me started on that ending, i was so annoyed and i felt a little cheated by it. I was happy how it ended with Kal killing him but this is Sanderson's series and i suppose he has the right to artistic license and write it how he wishes but in my mind the first version is the one i remember, i have to look up the edited version online if i need to check it out since i bought WOR on audio and paperback.

[Pagerunner he/him]

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 11:40 AM, maxal said:

I fear one of the reasons so many people are theorizing about dead characters not really being dead (Sadeas, Helaran, Tien) is linked to the author having over-used the trope. I never saw people arguing so much about clearly dead people in other fandoms: probably the fact dead, dead a few characters turning out not being dead, dead is generating the hype.

I don't think this phenomenon is primarily about Brandon's use of death. Because Brandon includes so much foreshadowing and so many secrets, people are always looking to pull them out. So, every day on the Shard, we get a new crazy theory. Just looking through the first page of Cosmere Theories, I see:

Spoiler

 

• Hoid didn't use the lerasium bead to become an Allomancer, and still has it.
• The God King's store of Breath was originally Stormlight.
• Various Shards have had children after they Ascended.
• Kelsier founded the 17th Shard.
• Two topics that guess at remaining Shard names.
• And then, over in the Secret History board, wondering if Ruin was an Aimian.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's bad to go out on a limb. But when we're turning over every rock we can find to look for a secret, anyone who has died off-screen is going to be suspect, especially one like Helaran who has a story. I don't think its that readers don't expect anyone to stay dead. I think it's more just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

•  

[AerionBFII he/him]

29 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I don't think this phenomenon is primarily about Brandon's use of death. Because Brandon includes so much foreshadowing and so many secrets, people are always looking to pull them out. So, every day on the Shard, we get a new crazy theory. Just looking through the first page of Cosmere Theories, I see:

  Hide contents

 

• Hoid didn't use the lerasium bead to become an Allomancer, and still has it.
• The God King's store of Breath was originally Stormlight.
• Various Shards have had children after they Ascended.
• Kelsier founded the 17th Shard.
• Two topics that guess at remaining Shard names.
• And then, over in the Secret History board, wondering if Ruin was an Aimian.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's bad to go out on a limb. But when we're turning over every rock we can find to look for a secret, anyone who has died off-screen is going to be suspect, especially one like Helaran who has a story. I don't think its that readers don't expect anyone to stay dead. I think it's more just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

•  

I agree with this, there's only so many times Brandon can sucker punch you with plot twists and foreshadowing without fans getting paranoid and obsessively searching for the next. 

[Hemalurgic Headshot he/him]

10 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

I agree with this, there's only so many times Brandon can sucker punch you with plot twists and foreshadowing without fans getting paranoid and obsessively searching for the next. 

But aren't we already doing that?

[maxal she/her]

16 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Sorry guys but i disagree. Szeth is important to the Storyline as a POV into the Skybreakers, The Black Sphere, Nale, the Stone Shamans and last but not least Nightblood XD. Personally he's one of my favorite characters, he's by far one of the most complex and interesting characters to read about. Obviously this is all personal preference and varies from one reader to another but he's basically the definition of Screwed Over and the quandary of ethical right and moral wrong. Living his life in Shinovar with little contact with the outside world sheltered and a naive the only laws he knows of are the Laws of the Shin, then warning his people of the VB and the KR return and the threat the posed he was falsely judged and sentenced to a life as a Truthless and given his Honorblade. A slave consigned to do whatever he was told by whomever held his stone, without even the escape of suicide. He obeyed the laws of the Shin and served as Truthless dutifully despite how much it tore him apart, and the massacres he committed, even to the point of madness. Then he finds out he was right the entire time and everything he had done could have been avoided. I WANT A REVENGE ARC!!! 

Hey, we all have our favorites. I am aware there are readers who truly enjoy Szeth's character, but I am not one of those. I find his character motivations to be weak and/or unsatisfying: murdering people simply because the owner of his soul tells him to do so, worst being convinced he has to obey over on such the pretense his soul will suffer if not aren't strong enough reasons to warrant my personal sympathy. However, other readers have different views on the character and what I find "weak" others find "interesting" and "compelling". 

I had also didn't think of Szeth as important to the main narrative up until Brandon said he was. I read him as an antagonist, not a protagonist.

However, since Brandon has confirmed Szeth was getting a focus arc, then readers who love him will be served. As for the others, well, they can only hope the author will manage to reverse the steam.

17 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

@maxal I don't think the characters chosen for the flashbacks immediately become the focal point of that book. SA will carry on with Kal/Dalinar and Shallan as the main focus and the the story will flow as usual, It will mostly just be sprinkled with flashbacks, obviously later Eshonai will have a more important role to play but she'll mostly remain a side character but the main Listener. Im not that hyped about Eshonai as a character either to be honest but it's a small price to pay.

This has been an often discussed topic. While Brandon did say not all books would follow the WoK/WoR structure where the flashback characters also was the focal point of the book, I have yet to see an indication this is indeed likely to change in future books.