speculation A Different Take on Cultivation

[VirtuousTraveller]

Quote

All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.

Death Rattle, TWoK

During my reread of TWoK, this death rattle stood out to me.  My working theory is that these are the thoughts of Cultivation, reflecting on her current situation.

All is Withdrawn for Me - While there's still a lot of story left to tell in the SA, Cultivation does not seem as active in the conflicts on Roshar as Honor/Odium, especially now.  There are lots of magic systems going on, but the main battle seems to slate the Knights Radiant/Heralds (Honor) against the Voidbringers/Unmade (Odium).  Where is Cultivation in this?  Withdrawn.

The One Who Saved My Life - Odium, whom Cultivation now stands against.  Why?  Because...

The One Who Killed My Promises - Odium, who killed Honor (her promises/oaths/commitments).

I'm wondering if Rayse somehow helped Cultivation's Vessel in the past (maybe on Yolen?), or perhaps there's more to the shardic interaction than we realize.  Maybe Honor had become a threat to Cultivation and Odium saved her by splintering Honor.  We know that Honor has focuses on oaths and binding and ideals, while Cultivation seems an intent focused on growth and progression and expansion.

I Raise My Hand - a clear reference to Rayse (that's stupid)

I Raise My Hand.  The Storm Responds - Cultivation acknowledges Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow in the storms, who acknowledges her, however in his splintered and dead state, all she gets is the storm, which from our limited interactions with the Stormfather (and the driving insane power of a highstorm) doesn't seem super happy.  She sees her lost love and longingly reaches for his hand, but gets the rage of the storm in return.

Speculation.  It puts Odium in a somewhat tragic place, a tragedy that I think we'll learn more about as the story unfolds (the Vessel of Divine Hatred?  What a prison!).  May we learn more in Oathbringer!

Edited December 2, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Landis963 he/him]

I don't think the Unmade have access to the Shards' thoughts, and even if they did, I'm unsure as to why Moelach would pass that along to a dying man.  No, this is Kaladin protecting Elhokar (whom an earlier chapter title branded "The One Who Killed Promises") from Moash (who IIRC saved Kaladin's life back in WoK).  

[ZenBossanova]

Very interesting. 

Here is a more chilling reading. It is Taln saying this about Cultivation. Of course, I have no idea what promises she might have broken, but we know she has pretty much given up on Mankind. 

Still, I expect you are right. 

And I do wonder if Cultivation and Odium were friends at some level before Odium started killing everyone.

[VirtuousTraveller]

42 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

I don't think the Unmade have access to the Shards' thoughts, and even if they did, I'm unsure as to why Moelach would pass that along to a dying man.  No, this is Kaladin protecting Elhokar (whom an earlier chapter title branded "The One Who Killed Promises") from Moash (who IIRC saved Kaladin's life back in WoK).  

I can definitely read your interpretation of this, sure.  The chapter title is convincing.  I think the death rattles, though, offer us a picture into events not yet seen, whether in the past or the future, that extend beyond the parallel to the happenings in the book.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I can definitely read your interpretation of this, sure.  The chapter title is convincing.  I think the death rattles, though, offer us a picture into events not yet seen, whether in the past or the future, that extend beyond the parallel to the happenings in the book.

Not all of the death rattle scenes are still unknown. I know of at least two which have occurred in the books already. There is no reason why this one can't have happened already either. In addition, I agree with Landis963's thought that it seems unlikely that the Unmade would be able to access the thoughts of a shard. Regular humans, surgebinders, or heralds, yes, not shards though. 

Are you suggesting though that the death rattles can have multiple meanings, one in conjunction to a scene within the books and one extending outside the series?

[VirtuousTraveller]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Are you suggesting though that the death rattles can have multiple meanings, one in conjunction to a scene within the books and one extending outside the series?

Yes!  This concept of "double-prophecy" is seen in the Bible a lot.  Isaiah 7:14 was a prophecy that God would deliver King Ahaz and His people in Judah from their enemies and as a sign that this would happen, there would be a virgin who would give birth to a child named Immanuel.  The enemies would be defeated before this child grew up.

The New Testament writers (and the majority of the Christian world) ALSO see Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy related to the coming of the Messiah, which would happen centuries later.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Yes!  This concept of "double-prophecy" is seen in the Bible a lot.  Isaiah 7:14 was a prophecy that God would deliver King Ahaz and His people in Judah from their enemies and as a sign that this would happen, there would be a virgin who would give birth to a child named Immanuel.  The enemies would be defeated before this child grew up.

The New Testament writers (and the majority of the Christian world) ALSO see Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy related to the coming of the Messiah, which would happen centuries later.

Possible. It bears some merit though I don't really see it as it still doesn't circumvent the problem of how an Unmade would be able to read the mind of a shard.

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

I don't know that the Unmade choose the Death Rattle or that it has to be something they know about. I thought the idea was just that Moelach's power allowed dying people to briefly see into the Spiritual Realm, which doesn't limit them to what the Unmade know. Also doesn't limit them to only telling the future or the present; it could be the past as well.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

When I first read this death rattle I actually thought Eshonai.

But when I heard the theory on it being Kaladin... It lines up so well. I think this is a reference to Kaladin protecting Elhokar and ultimately renewing his oaths at the end of Words of Radiance.

In regard to cultivation... Well I don't really believe she is withdrawn from Roshar (I have a theory that Taravangian and the diagramists are furthering Cultivation's agenda).

[emailanimal he/him]

On 12/2/2016 at 7:31 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

Cultivation does not seem as active in the conflicts on Roshar as Honor/Odium, especially now.  There are lots of magic systems going on, but the main battle seems to slate the Knights Radiant/Heralds (Honor) against the Voidbringers/Unmade (Odium).  Where is Cultivation in this?  Withdrawn.

Not to be contrarian here, but I think this premise is somewhat incorrect. First and foremost, KRs are not of Honor, they are of Honor AND Cultivation. Which is why Wyndle refers to Mother and Syl - to Father. Five of the ten surges are from Cultivation. Cultivation may be in mourning, but she is far from being withdrawn.

Also, if you were to continue your interpretation it'd have to run something like that: Honor saved Cultivation's life but now she stands against Honor. Odium killed her promises (?) and she now protects him.  The latter might make sense to me, but I still think the rest of the Rattle does not quite fit.   

[Spoolofwhool]

10 hours ago, emailanimal said:

Not to be contrarian here, but I think this premise is somewhat incorrect. First and foremost, KRs are not of Honor, they are of Honor AND Cultivation. Which is why Wyndle refers to Mother and Syl - to Father. Five of the ten surges are from Cultivation. Cultivation may be in mourning, but she is far from being withdrawn.

Also, if you were to continue your interpretation it'd have to run something like that: Honor saved Cultivation's life but now she stands against Honor. Odium killed her promises (?) and she now protects him.  The latter might make sense to me, but I still think the rest of the Rattle does not quite fit.   

First of all, the surges aren't of anyone. They're fundamental laws of Roshar, which surgebinding, a manifestation of investiture created as a result of one or more shards investiture, can manipulate. Secondly, who's investiture composes the spren who can create nahel bonds actually doesn't mean much with regards to whose investiture created surgebinding. The spren just arose as a result of the mixing of Cultivation and Honor's investiture in Roshar, and a combination of the manifestation of investiture surgebinding and the natural laws of Roshar makes the spren bonds give surgebinding. 

[emailanimal he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The spren just arose as a result of the mixing of Cultivation and Honor's investiture in Roshar,

According to a few WoBs spren existed on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation.

[Corax]

The simplest interpretation seems to be the one already mentioned regarding Kaladin, Elokhar, and Moash. Strangely, when I first read it I imagined it to foreshadow the end of the series, with Kaladin ending up as Odium’s champion and all the awfulness that would entail. Alternately, it sort of feels like it could plausibly be from Eshonai’s perspective (I raise my hand. The storm responds.) In the end, it seems most likely to be the first of these.

[emailanimal he/him]

3 minutes ago, Corax said:

The simplest interpretation seems to be the one already mentioned regarding Kaladin, Elokhar, and Moash. Strangely, when I first read it I imagined it to foreshadow the end of the series, with Kaladin ending up as Odium’s champion and all the awfulness that would entail. Alternately, it sort of feels like it could plausibly be from Eshonai’s perspective (I raise my hand. The storm responds.) In the end, it seems most likely to be the first of these.

Eshonai actually fits reasonably well. In fact, she fits reasonably well regardless of whether she remains bound to Odium, or whether she is able to escape Stormform.

[VirtuousTraveller]

2 hours ago, Corax said:

The simplest interpretation seems to be the one already mentioned regarding Kaladin, Elokhar, and Moash. Strangely, when I first read it I imagined it to foreshadow the end of the series, with Kaladin ending up as Odium’s champion and all the awfulness that would entail. Alternately, it sort of feels like it could plausibly be from Eshonai’s perspective (I raise my hand. The storm responds.) In the end, it seems most likely to be the first of these.

Ah, but the simplest explanations are rarely the most interesting! :-P

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, emailanimal said:

According to a few WoBs spren existed on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation.

Yes. However, I was specifically referring to the spren who create Nahel bonds.

[Demiandre he/him]

On 02/12/2016 at 4:31 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

The One Who Saved My Life - Odium, whom Cultivation now stands against.  Why?  Because...

I just have another interpretation for that part : Maybe because of the Oathpact, Cultivaton has to "help" (in a very wide interpretation) Odium, or can't fight him like Honor did.

Globally, I like it a lot. I'll have to ponder more about the Death Rattles. They fascinate me because there are so many possibilities about the what/why/when/wherefrom

[emailanimal he/him]

Just now, Demiandre said:

Maybe because of the Oathpact, Cultivaton has to "help" (in a very wide interpretation) Odium, or can't fight him like Honor did.

Oathpact, as we were wisely reminded is between Honor and the Heralds. There may be other "agreements" between the Shards. But they are not Oathpact.

[Demiandre he/him]

Yes, but Odium was trapped by the Oathpact. Cultivation could be also kind of trapped

[Spoolofwhool]

34 minutes ago, Demiandre said:

Yes, but Odium was trapped by the Oathpact. Cultivation could be also kind of trapped

The Oathpact is only indirectly trapping him though. There is a greater force at work.

[Demiandre he/him]

I know, what I mean is that we don't know if something similar could have happened to Cultivation. She could be a collateral damage in a sense

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

Im pretty sure at least one of the deathrattles comes directly from Taln in Damnation.

[Savanorn he/him]

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Full Metal Rithmatist said:

Im pretty sure at least one of the deathrattles comes directly from Taln in Damnation.

We talking about the "the burdens of nine become mine. Why must I bear their madness. Oh, Almighty, release me..." ? 

From memory, exact wording not guaranteed.

 

It makes sense to me. If the deathrattles are really glances into the Spiritual Realm.