Oathbringer Update Five

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

Dont ever think it is anything wrong with you as a reader! People are different. Adolin is the most important thing for you in Stormlight, the thing that gets you hooked to the series. It is completely understandable that you feel disappointed. 

Thanks. He is indeed what got me hooked onto the series. Without him as a regular viewpoint character, the entire story falls apart for me. It just lost most of its interest. Obviously, I do not expect others to share the sentient and while I may be a tad melodramatic about it, I am quite sure others will end up being disappointed about it too.

4 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

It is also nothing wrong with reading the book despite knowing you will be disappointed. Who knows, you might find it satisfactory. You are obviously free to decide what you want to read, but dont worry about it being unfair to us, or to Brandon. Because I dont think it is.

What I meant is it isn't fair to Brandon and to the community if I were to read the book as my critic would probably be needlessly negative. I feel it isn't fair of me to dislike a book just because one character's story arc doesn't unfold as I thought it would. Then again, when Jordan published Path of Daggers, the fans ragged as Mat was absent from the book. Adolin is not quite Mat in terms of popularity, so I cannot gauge effectively how angry the average reader will be at it. I expect thought there will be those who'd feel disappointed just as I. Enough to rank the book negatively? It depends what else is in it, but for me, removing Adolin's viewpoints from the main narrative (well technically, he didn't remove them, but he put them all towards the end in the most cramped up part of the book which also happens to be very short) basically breaks down the equilibrium of the main narrative. It removed my favorite POV to read which is basically the candy you hold over the nose of readers in multi-POV stories: keep on reading through the POV you enjoy less because you know your favorite is coming soon. Except in my case, I know he isn't coming soon.

4 hours ago, Chull #445 said:

I dont know how comfortable you are with getting a big focus on yourself in this thread. If you dont like it, or find it annoying or something, we will obviously not force you to continue replying to us. I want to add, however, that I thank you for all your posts about Adolin. It has made me understand and appreciate the character more. I also want to say that at least I do not think that there is anything strange about feeling that less of a specific character can ruin the story. 

Bah. I knew what I was getting into when I wrote the first post. I guess I just want to share how I felt about it. Everyone is so excited over book 3, and with reasons, but for my part the excitement is gone. I have just realized I have nothing to hope for, nothing to keep me hooked or interested as baffling (or blasphemous ) even  as this might sound to others. I also needed to make the point on all of my Adolin writing: how I feel it has been useless as what will unfold is not big enough to be excited over it. 

Thanks. I am glad you liked the posts and thanks for understanding how seeing less of a character when we expected more could definitely ruin a story for a given reader. 

Edit: @Rhaegar'Elin: I forgot to quote you. I loved you meme: I thought it was rather funny. It made me laughed, though I do think the hookers are not really necessary 

Also, in the case of Szeth, I wanted to say his story arc might not be bigger than the one he has had in previous books, but it is, at the very least, equivalent. Szeth has the Part 3 novella which was moved to Part 4. A novella implies a given amount of words which might no be hordes above what he got in previous books, but it certainly isn't less. He is also being promoted from the interlude to the main story arc. Besides, he is getting a focus book. 

Adolin is getting a smaller story arc than in previous books, a less regular viewpoint than he had without the promise of a future focus book. Of course, the quality might be there, but I personally do not feel like digging into 1000 pages book just to get through the 10 pages on Adolin. As for growing into a bigger role, if it hasn't happened in book 3 after WoR's ending, it won't happen in future books. Brandon has been clear Adolin was not getting a focus arc, never as he doesn't feel the character needs one. He feels what he is offering is enough and great on its own: as a reader I feel disappointed by the lack of him throughout the greater majority of the book.

Edited November 20, 2016 by maxal

[Spoolofwhool]

@maxal It sounds like SA isn't a series for you, if reading the non-Adolin POVs is such a trial as you seem to be implying, and Adolin is the only hook it had for you. I know it's unfortunate, since Adolin is a very likable character, and everyone would love to see him grow, but ultimately, there is a plan and a story to be told, and as it stands Adolin cannot fit in. I'm sure Brandon would love to write more Adolin scenes if he knew he had room to and it didn't damage the story plan he had too much.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

@maxal It sounds like SA isn't a series for you, if reading the non-Adolin POVs is such a trial as you seem to be implying, and Adolin is the only hook it had for you. I know it's unfortunate, since Adolin is a very likable character, and everyone would love to see him grow, but ultimately, there is a plan and a story to be told, and as it stands Adolin cannot fit in. I'm sure Brandon would love to write more Adolin scenes if he knew he had room to and it didn't damage the story plan he had too much.

Sadly this is the conclusion I have come to draw  I love the world, I love the idea behind the world, I love the concept, I love the over-arching story, I love the writing, I love how the story is presented, I love the author because let's be frank, he sounds like a great man, but I don't want to see it unfold without Adolin being a significant character in it. It isn't the other POV are a trial, I have enjoyed reading every single POV in previous books, but I have invested too much time and energy into promoting Adolin as a character to be satisfied with what we are currently being offered. 

Brandon just doesn't think Adolin needs much of a story arc to develop as a character. He feels what he offers is sufficient for this specific character but, as a reader, I have grown increasingly mad over the extended focus over Kaladin wondering why Adolin cannot be used in a more active manner. How can it be sufficient for Adolin when Kaladin gets so much more? Just thinking about it makes me mad hence my earlier thought it isn't fair of me to keep on reading. 

I know I am being unfair, but I cannot help how I feel about it which is why I think it might be best if I didn't read the next book. Mind, it will be a whole year before it is out: I have time to change my mind, but if I were to read it now, I know my feelings would be of unfair anger combined with sadness and disappointment. After having spent so much time crafting theories and writing essays to help others view Adolin's character in a positive light, knowing his arc will be horribly small is so heart-breaking it has even killed my desire to read more fantasy books.

I wish I could be excited over the next book, but I dread reading so much, all the fun is gone.

 

[Ecthelion III he/him]

Adolin had only 7% of the wordcount in Words of Radiance. I think we can still expect a similar number from Oathbringer.

[Oversleep]

Oathbringer is Dalinar's book, so it is within reasonable bounds to assume we'll get to see some more of Adolin

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

Adolin had only 7% of the wordcount in Words of Radiance. I think we can still expect a similar number from Oathbringer.

He had about 30K words in WoR. In Oathbringer, considering he has presence only in Part 4 and considering this part only has 80K combined with the fact he is sharing it with 5 other characters, I'd be surprised of his words count would exceed 10K which would bring him to 2% of the overall word count.

It is quite a drop. In a bigger book, I had expected more words, not less or at the very least, equal.

[Ecthelion III he/him]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

In a bigger book

Brandon said that Tor's binding company won't do anything larger than WoR, so we can expect him to trim it down. (Probably in Pt. 2 iirc)

[Guest]

Just now, Ecthelion III said:

Brandon said that Tor's binding company won't do anything larger than WoR, so we can expect him to trim it down. (Probably in Pt. 2 iirc)

Didn't he say they found a work around that?

[Windrunner he/him]

From my understanding, it's just their preferred binding company, they can and will go elsewhere if need be. We can expect the story to be trimmed down during revisions, but Brandon won't cut anything that is important to the plot.

[cometaryorbit]

Wait, how do we know Adolin will only be in one part? If I'm reading the visual outline linked in Update #5 correctly, 3 out of 4 tertiary characters are in Parts 4 and 5, and 1 is in Part 2 only. So it seems like we get a 75% chance of two parts with Adolin...

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Wait, how do we know Adolin will only be in one part? If I'm reading the visual outline linked in Update #5 correctly, 3 out of 4 tertiary characters are in Parts 4 and 5, and 1 is in Part 2 only. So it seems like we get a 75% chance of two parts with Adolin...

Because I do not count Part 5: it is very small and each character has nothing but very limited viewpoints in it, including Adolin. As it is currently planned, there won't be a single Adolin viewpoint until the last 100K words of the book. How many words? I cannot say, but Part 4 has only 80K and it focuses on 6 characters including Adolin, Szeth, Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan. Hoping for more than 10-15K seems very optimistic. 

By all means, Adolin's story arc is highly likely to be smaller than it was in WoR and it won't be over-arching into the entire book thus firmly settling him into the realm of minor characters. 

[Kanrei]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

Because I do not count Part 5: it is very small and each character has nothing but very limited viewpoints in it, including Adolin. As it is currently planned, there won't be a single Adolin viewpoint until the last 100K words of the book. How many words? I cannot say, but Part 4 has only 80K and it focuses on 6 characters including Adolin, Szeth, Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan. Hoping for more than 10-15K seems very optimistic. 

By all means, Adolin's story arc is highly likely to be smaller than it was in WoR and it won't be over-arching into the entire book thus firmly settling him into the realm of minor characters. 

Can you say on what you base your assumptions, especially one that we wont see anything about Adolin till last 100k words ??
I like ADolin, I would like to see more of him, and at first your posts worried me, and then made me wonder if you know more them me or make false assumptions.

I read Reddit update, Sanderson answers and below is mine interpretation. It might be that I miss some piece of info, if thats the case, please give link

First, viewpoint dont mean character wont be showed in other parts of book or developed. It only mean that we see story from that character eyes.
We had a lot of Adolin development so far from povs of Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar in WoK and WoR. Actually some of more important bits of Adolin's story were not through his eyes but from other characters (Adolin's helping prostitute in WoK, his dating with Shallan, parts of duel, aftermath of stay in prison to name few)

Second, like Overslept said, its Dalinar's book, so unless Adolin get separated from Dalinar, we might actually see more of him, not less if he will be around Dalinar.

Third, Sanderson said: " I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book."

So, in deviation from the original outline Sanderson will deepen Adolin's story, not make it shorter or shallower. I assume that original outline for Adolin was in place in WoK and most of WoR, so we actually might expect more of Adolin's story or richer story then previously.

All of above seems to indicate that Adolin's fans should be rather happy, not worried.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Kanrei said:

Can you say on what you base your assumptions, especially one that we wont see anything about Adolin till last 100k words ??
I like ADolin, I would like to see more of him, and at first your posts worried me, and then made me wonder if you know more them me or make false assumptions.

I read Reddit update, Sanderson answers and below is mine interpretation. It might be that I miss some piece of info, if thats the case, please give link

First, viewpoint dont mean character wont be showed in other parts of book or developed. It only mean that we see story from that character eyes.
We had a lot of Adolin development so far from povs of Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar in WoK and WoR. Actually some of more important bits of Adolin's story were not through his eyes but from other characters (Adolin's helping prostitute in WoK, his dating with Shallan, parts of duel, aftermath of stay in prison to name few)

Second, like Overslept said, its Dalinar's book, so unless Adolin get separated from Dalinar, we might actually see more of him, not less if he will be around Dalinar.

Third, Sanderson said: " I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book."

So, in deviation from the original outline Sanderson will deepen Adolin's story, not make it shorter or shallower. I assume that original outline for Adolin was in place in WoK and most of WoR, so we actually might expect more of Adolin's story or richer story then previously.

All of above seems to indicate that Adolin's fans should be rather happy, not worried.

He's basing it off of the character viewpoint structure of the book which Brandon provided. In it, tertiary characters, which Adolin is, have limited sectioning. Also, yes, you're right that Adolin will appear in other people's PoV. However, he's arguing that it won't be the same, and there won't be the same development, if it's not from his PoV, which is a valid concern, though I think oversold.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Kanrei said:

Can you say on what you base your assumptions, especially one that we wont see anything about Adolin till last 100k words ??
I like ADolin, I would like to see more of him, and at first your posts worried me, and then made me wonder if you know more them me or make false assumptions.

I read Reddit update, Sanderson answers and below is mine interpretation. It might be that I miss some piece of info, if thats the case, please give link

First, viewpoint dont mean character wont be showed in other parts of book or developed. It only mean that we see story from that character eyes.
We had a lot of Adolin development so far from povs of Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar in WoK and WoR. Actually some of more important bits of Adolin's story were not through his eyes but from other characters (Adolin's helping prostitute in WoK, his dating with Shallan, parts of duel, aftermath of stay in prison to name few)

Second, like Overslept said, its Dalinar's book, so unless Adolin get separated from Dalinar, we might actually see more of him, not less if he will be around Dalinar.

Third, Sanderson said: " I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book."

So, in deviation from the original outline Sanderson will deepen Adolin's story, not make it shorter or shallower. I assume that original outline for Adolin was in place in WoK and most of WoR, so we actually might expect more of Adolin's story or richer story then previously.

All of above seems to indicate that Adolin's fans should be rather happy, not worried.

My assumptions are based on Brandon's own words where he confirmed Adolin would not have any viewpoint until the end of the book. According to the planning he published, he has viewpoints only in Part 4 and potentially in Part 5 (this has not been confirmed as far as I am aware). He also mentioned Part 4 was very short: it only had 80K. In a previous update, he stated Part 5 was traditionally the shortest one, so we have to assume it would be less than 80K. 50K is probably a good guess. Also, considering Part 4 not only has viewpoints from Adolin, but from 5 other characters, we can assume Adolin's own page time will not be all that great within the one part where he is featured. If I do the math, statistically speaking, the probability of Adolin's story arc to be less than it was in WoR is extremely high. Of course, Brandon says it is about the same, but he might be rounding it down. I mean, it might be, as an author, he considers 15K to be equivalent to 30K or perhaps he counts in chapters, no matter how long or short they might be. I do not know, here I am only guessing, but based on this last update, I am expecting nothing but a very short arc for Adolin.

Therefore, Adolin will not have any viewpoints until the last 130K words of the book which I indeed rounded down to 100K: at this point, I do not think a few 10K words make a big difference. It is essentially confirmed Adolin's own story arc won't kick start until the last part of the book. 

What Brandon is also saying is viewpoints aren't always required and characters can be developed with third person's perspective: I believe he cites Jasnah as an example. this is where he and I disagree as I do not feel it is the same. Jasnah's role in WoK left more open questions than answers as we are basically force trying to guess what her thought might be. In her case, we know she will eventually get a lot of page time, so the answers will come. It is thus, based on my personal reader's experience, third person's perspective is a poor replacement for a real POV: no reader would content themselves with reading Kaladin's story arc (for instance) almost solely from the eyes of another character. As a reader who prefer Adolin, I am saddened to hear I will have to content myself with it.

This also leaves open the amount of presence Adolin will have in other characters story arcs such as Dalinar and Shallan. While it is true he has made numerous appearances into those in previous books, most of those were very superficial and could hardly be ranked as "character development". There are very few instances where Adolin popped into Dalinar's arc in a meaningful way for his character development and not Dalinar: the same can be said about Shallan. So while he might be around, those chapters certainly won't focus on what he might be going through. They will focus on what Dalinar and Shallan are going through. This is also where I disagree with many: it is just not the same and no it isn't a replacement for a real POV. Again, the Kaladin argument: would it be the same had part of story been transferred to another character? The answer is no. I do not understand why it has to be different for Adolin. It will not be the same, hence Adolin by the shape of things, is not foreseen to play a significant role into book 3. 

Where I push the assumption farther is when I claim if book 3 cannot give him a bigger story arc, then it is unlikely other books will as WoR ended up with quite a cliffhanger for him. My disappointment comes mostly from the fact I sincerely believe the downfall following Sadeas's death should have been Adolin's arc, but it looks like it will be Dalinar. I have been advocating against this happening for a while now: hoping Adolin could own his own story arc and stop being a passenger within other character story arcs. I had hope the author would agree and would have made a bigger place for Adolin and by bigger, I meant a story arc at least equivalent in length as in WoR, 30K words and preferably slightly bigger to bring it to the 30-40K range.

I believe my overall expectations were rather reasonable. It isn't as if I asked for Adolin to take over the entire book: I have been wanting him to have a more decisive role, to have an arc which belongs to him within the scope of 30-40K. Of course, more would always be preferable, but since the author said Adolin wasn't a main protagonist, I went for an intermediate for a popular well loved character having shown the potential to grow within the story.

I am well aware of Brandon's words on Reddit. To this, I would answer, I am completely unsure what the author considers a "satisfying arcF readers. Condensing Adolin's viewpoints to the end of the book might serve a purpose within the overall narrative, but it definitely sets the character within the realm of minor ones. It definitely close the door to any chances he might have had to grow beyond the "tertiary character" spot within a story. He thus becomes the only character of import not getting an increase in page time in any future books which I must admit is very heartbreaking for the readers who have enjoyed the few they have read so far. 

As for the original outline part, I do not know which original outline Brandon is referring to. The original, original outline had him dying in WoK, so if he is referring to this one, then I'd say pretty much anything else trumps that. 

Adolin's fans should be happy? Then I sincerely invite any reader who have preferred or loved or deeply cared about this character to come forth and say, in all honesty that, based on what they have read so far (not by me, but by the author), they are completely satisfied with Adolin's prospective role within SA3. I am not asking those who never cared about the character or those have other interest in the story than character development, but those who have partaked into the numerous Adolin related discussions and whom have loved the character: are you honestly satisfy by it? You might be willing to RAFO to see how it pans out, but purely based on our current knowledge, does it really look encouraging? Do you really feel third person's perspective, which cannot be quantified in page time, so it might be scarce, is enough for his character development? Are you really pleased to know you won't be reading his thoughts following Sadeas's murder? 

Are you?

 

[Pagerunner he/him]

59 minutes ago, maxal said:

Adolin's fans should be happy? Then I sincerely invite any reader who have preferred or loved or deeply cared about this character to come forth and say, in all honesty that, based on what they have read so far (not by me, but by the author), they are completely satisfied with Adolin's prospective role within SA3. I am not asking those who never cared about the character or those have other interest in the story than character development, but those who have partaked into the numerous Adolin related discussions and whom have loved the character: are you honestly satisfy by it? You might be willing to RAFO to see how it pans out, but purely based on our current knowledge, does it really look encouraging? Do you really feel third person's perspective, which cannot be quantified in page time, so it might be scarce, is enough for his character development? Are you really pleased to know you won't be reading his thoughts following Sadeas's murder? 

Are you?

 

Yes. The author himself has said he has expanded Adolin's role, and that he will 'dig into things with him in this book.' I will read the book before judging whether or not he has a satisfactory character arc.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Pagerunner

[Windrunner he/him]

All right, I think this tangent is played out. Maxal, you are well within your rights to be disappointed by Adolin's page count but I think we're done with this discussion. Its not going anywhere productive. Everyone, feel free to continue discussing this update from Brandon, but the debate about Adolin's page count is over. If you all would like to continue this discussion about Adolin's POV, feel free to take it to PM's. Thanks all!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Windrunner said:

All right, I think this tangent is played out. Maxal, you are well within your rights to be disappointed by Adolin's page count but I think we're done with this discussion. Its not going anywhere productive. Everyone, feel free to continue discussing this update from Brandon, but the debate about Adolin's page count is over. If you all would like to continue this discussion about Adolin's POV, feel free to take it to PM's. Thanks all!

Sorry. I will not be making any further comment on this matter. If others want to quote me, you can PM instead as I dislike leaving unanswered questions directed towards me. I realize I have been hijacking the thread, so apologies. I'll go be quiet now. 

[Odin1981]

The one hope I have with this next book is we get to see quite a few conversations between Szeth and Nightblood. Szeth is very introspective as to what he did and such, coupled with the almost youthful wonder and awe of Nightblood in fulfilling his duty. The dynamic of those two together to me at least is very exciting and something in which I look very much forward to. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Odin1981

[vividox]

1 hour ago, Odin1981 said:

The one hope I have with this next book is we get to see quite a few conversations between Szeth and Nightblood. Szeth is very introspective as to what he did and such, coupled with the almost youthful wonder and awe of Nightblood in fulfilling his duty. The dynamic of those two together to me at least is very exciting and something in which I look very much forward to. 

Absolutely agree with this. Honestly, the way WoK and WoR have set up SA3, I don't think I can be disappointed here. We all know Sanderson pumps out quality like it's going out of style, and all the threads left dangling from the first two books make this so incredibly juicy before the first word is even read. Edgedancer just made the wait that much worse, IMO. I am anticipating this book something fierce.

[Hsq]

Hey all, new to the forum, but a huge fan!  Looks like SA3 will stay as Oathbringer?  surprised it won't be an in-world book title.  or perhaps it is...?

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Hsq
Twitter links

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, Hsq said:

Hey all, new to the forum, but a huge fan!  Looks like SA3 will stay as Oathbringer?  surprised it won't be an in-world book title.  or perhaps it is...?

Looks like a literal RAFO.

[Oversleep]

I think I've already seen that question on reddit. Not sure what the response was.

[IntentAwesome]

4 hours ago, Hsq said:

Hey all, new to the forum, but a huge fan!  Looks like SA3 will stay as Oathbringer?  surprised it won't be an in-world book title.  or perhaps it is...?

 

Based on Brandon's response to that question, I've just had a thought. What if someone in-world is writing a book about Dalinar, titled Oathbringer. Navani perhaps? That's something I could see her doing.

[Alpharho]

I think Dalinar will be the one writing the book. After the fashion of Nohadon, who originally dismissed the idea in visions, but wrote the actual The Way of Kings.

[IntentAwesome]

I think he might be a little bit busy with a desolation on his hands to write a book right now.