How Splintering Works (Half-Baked Theory)

[cometaryorbit]

Splintering a Shard is essentially forcing the Shard's power from the Spiritual Realm to the Cognitive.

Shards are primarily in the Spiritual Realm:

(Shadows of Self signing - Oak Brook, IL)

 

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Question

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. [edited for clarity- Original was: Most of the bulk of what the Shard's energy of being is contained on the Spiritual Realm] Except for one notable exception!

Question

The mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

 

 

When I first read this, I was thinking "Hmm, that's funny." The Ars Arcanum calls spren "transformative cognitive entities", but we know they're Splinters. So if Shards are Spiritual primarily, why are their splinters Cognitive primarily?

 

Then I remembered that Sel's Cognitive is dangerous since it's full of Splintered power. And the regional nature of magic on Sel seems to be tied to this:

(Calamity signing - Seattle)

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Question

Well you answered my question about Allomancers being able to burn metals in other realms--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

--is that because the Shards are sort of… My impression from the book was that the Shards were--in the Mistborn books--specifically in that area but is it because the universe is formed across all of them that that is why the metals--

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the magics are not region-dependent, because the Spiritual Realm-- in the Spiritual Realm space doesn’t exist. All things are the same distance from one another.

OK, so in the Spiritual, there's no space or location, and a Shard's power exists as a single entity. In the Cognitive, space matters, a Shard's power is splintered, and magic is regionalized.

So, I'm thinking that to Splinter a Shard, Odium forces its power from the Spiritual to the Cognitive. In the Cognitive Realm, the Shard's energy becomes attached to particular places and objects, and breaks apart. In the "realm of the mind", its pieces then develop self-awareness, making it harder to reunite.

Further wild speculation: perhaps Adonalsium's Shattering was driving him from 'beyond the Realms' into the Spiritual.

[Spoolofwhool]

Very interesting thought. I'm not sure though about the thought that the investiture of a spren is located in the cognitive realm. They are cognitive entities for sure, but that does not mean that their power has to be there as well, as it seems more likely that they are like other cognitive entities, with a spiritual component comprised in part of investiture and a cognitive aspect. 

45 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

When I first read this, I was thinking "Hmm, that's funny." The Ars Arcanum calls spren "transformative cognitive entities", but we know they're Splinters. So if Shards are Spiritual primarily, why are their splinters Cognitive primarily?

For this, I think it is a matter of relativity. Shards are made up of investiture which is usually spiritual, and since there is such a large amount of it outweighing the possible cognitive and physical aspects it has they are referred as spiritual entities. That, or it is just referring to the raw power of a shard which is just spiritual, with little physical or cognitive. On the other hand, spren have a limited spiritual comprised of the investiture fragment they possesses, coupled with a cognitive aspect. Since the cognitive aspect is more defined and unique, we consider it over the spiritual when defining spren, since likely most of them have similar spiritual. 

Also, something I found on Theoryland.

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LITTLE WILSON

You mentioned that "half-ish" of the existing Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self. Is that counting splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Splintered is one of the ways they are not considered whole. (He's thinking about Dominion and Devotion and says that's the opposite of whole)

LITTLE WILSON

I was thinking about shattered versus splintered, and going with shattered with Devotion and Dominion. And then splintered would be Honor separating a piece of himself to create the spren (pre-Shattering).

BRANDON SANDERSON

On Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. Things on the spiritual realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other. All those spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Yes, they're splinters of Honor, but they're still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world. There's no diminishing that. So we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole.

LITTLE WILSON

Are there any Shards we don't know of that are Shattered?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. (Zas' sister says "Four....ish...right?") Eh....Honor is gone. Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is is Cultivation gone or not? I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is why I'm not going to give you answers on this

Source

Now this is easily a piece of confirmation bias, since I don't really agree with this theory. However, based on context, to me, this is saying that the investiture of spren is located in the spiritual realm, like Honor's investiture, therefore still being able to be part of Honor before he was splintered. Now, it is possible that this could've changed as a result of the splintering as your theory states. However, if this did occur, then I feel like there would be a radical difference between the spren post-shattering and the spren pre-shattering due to the massive influx of investiture into the cognitive realm, and a general shift in how they exist. However, as it seems to be, not much as changed for the spren. The same spren exist throughout the event of the shattering.

[cometaryorbit]

I had seen that WOB about Honor's spren, but I was reading that as them being still part of Honor because distance doesn't matter to the Spiritual Shard - not that the individual spren themselves have to be in the Spiritual. I mean, the planet of Scadrial is "part of" Ruin and Preservation, or at least they are present in every bit of it - presumably for the same reason - and it is Physical.

I agree that the Realmatic nature of the spren didn't change during Honor's Splintering - but their number increased, probably greatly. Pattern says that intelligent spren were rarer at the time of the Recreance. So even with all the ones turned into Shardblades removed from the population, there are still more now than before.

But, under this theory, that's a matter of the power (finding itself in the Cognitive and thus breaking away from its holder) flowing into existing channels to form spren.

 

[Blightsong he/him]

Brandon said in the WoB you submitted that there was one notable exeption (AonDor), but you then contradict him saying that all splintered shards work this way. I think the biggest mistake you are making is assuming that AonDor was in the spiritual realm before the splintering. Everything we know about the magic system points towards it having been in the cognitive for the magic to have worked pre-odium.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I had seen that WOB about Honor's spren, but I was reading that as them being still part of Honor because distance doesn't matter to the Spiritual Shard - not that the individual spren themselves have to be in the Spiritual. I mean, the planet of Scadrial is "part of" Ruin and Preservation, or at least they are present in every bit of it - presumably for the same reason - and it is Physical.

I think that what it is saying is that a shard's power is not diminished when it is invested because that power still remains in the spiritual realm, therefore still close enough for the shard to have possession of it, because distance stops mattering. On the other hand, with Scadrial, the same thing is occurring. Their power is invested into the spiritual aspect of the physical world. Yes the world appears in the physical realm, but it also has a spiritual aspect and that is where they place their power, allowing them to always access it. If their power was physically invested into Scadrial, they wouldn't be able to just access it, as we saw with Ruin trying to find his atium. Spren work the same way. They have a cognitive aspect which defines them located in the cognitive realm, but their spiritual aspect is in the spiritual realm, and that is where their innate investiture is located. 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

14 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Brandon said in the WoB you submitted that there was one notable exeption (AonDor), but you then contradict him saying that all splintered shards work this way. I think the biggest mistake you are making is assuming that AonDor was in the spiritual realm before the splintering. Everything we know about the magic system points towards it having been in the cognitive for the magic to have worked pre-odium.

As I've theorized before, I believe the Dor was the cognitive creation of Aona and Skai, in which they fused their spiritual shardic power together through the power of their unified love.  Since relationships occupy no physical space and are the creation of our minds, this is why I think the Dor is the exception Brandon references.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

32 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Okay. If that's the case then and the power is already in the cognitive realm, then how could Odium have splintered them if, by your theory, splintering works by moving a shard's power from the spiritual realm to the cognitive realm? Agreeing that it was already there means that you've removed the most relevance supporting evidence for the theory.

Not at all, friend Spoolofwhool!  The Dor was a joint creation of Aona and Skai, a fusion of their powers together in complete unity as a product of their completely unified loving relationship.  This construct, I believe, was possible by dumping the spiritual power of both shards (formerly in the Spiritual Realm as two things) into the Cognitive Realm, as the idea of Unity was a creation of their minds (as all relationships are).  

The Dor is power of unity imagined, not necessarily the mutual spiritual intent of Devotion and Dominion.  Perhaps Aona and Skai did this because they knew their shardic intents could negatively impact their relationship if they allowed the intents to change their personalities over time if left unchecked?

This, the original Dor under the joint control of Aona and Skai, is the exception I believe Brandon is referencing in the above quoted WoB.  I believe the Dor's primary residence in the Cognitive Realm is what allowed it (the shard Unity) to be splintered - it was already an unstable force bound only by an incredibly strong relationship of two divine Vessels.

The idea of a combined shard's power existing primarily in the Cognitive Realm isn't really a stretch.  Consider Harmony - yes, it's considered "one" shard, but the spiritual power fueling it is not one: it is the competing spiritual intents of Preservation and Ruin.  That Sazed perceives the combined spiritual power as "Harmony" between to opposing forces is, to me, a cognition of his own creation (meaning no Sandersonian warlock [an Ahlstrom, if you will] appeared when Sazed picked up Preservation and Ruin and said, "THOU SHALT BE HARMONY!")

Does this answer your question?  I enjoy that you respond to my posts - it makes me feel like a part of the 17th Shard community! =)

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I understand what you're saying, of course, but we're not talking your theory about Devotion, Dominion and Unity (something I notice you stray to often), we're talking about your theory on how Odium splinters shards. That theory is about him forcing a shard's power from the spiritual realm into the cognitive realm to splinter, which is largely undermined by the fact that that means that it would've been impossible for him to splinter Dominion and Devotion, since their power was already in the cognitive realm by their own doing. This, coupled with the extremely low evidence that spren have their investiture in the cognitive realm, puts in low faith this theory. 

I disagree with your assessment that what I've brought to this conversation is "straying."  The theory of Odium's method of shard shattering as discussed here involves moving/forcing a shard's spiritual power into the Cognitive Realm.  I agree this is involved in the process, but it is not the final step.  Once the power is in the Cognitive Realm, it is there that it is somehow possible to splinter.  Since I propose that the combined spiritual power of Devotion and Dominion were already in the Cognitive Realm when Odium arrived on Sel, it made it that much easier for him to do whatever it is that he does (perhaps why The Letter refers to his visit to Sel as brief?)

The OP mentioned the Cognitive Realm on Sel, which is why I chose to contribute to this conversion.

As to spren's investiture existing in one realm or another, perhaps when Honor's power was pulled into the Cognitive Realm by Odium to splinter him, this contributed to the spren's memory loss issues?

[Spoolofwhool]

I see. Actually though, disregard everything I've said in response to you. They were made under the mistaken belief that you were the OP for some reason I can't fathom. As such, nothing they say is pertinent.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

17 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I see. Actually though, disregard everything I've said in response to you. They were made under the mistaken belief that you were the OP for some reason I can't fathom. As such, nothing they say is pertinent.

No hard feelings!  Have an upvote for good measure =)

[cometaryorbit]

20 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Brandon said in the WoB you submitted that there was one notable exeption (AonDor), but you then contradict him saying that all splintered shards work this way.

Well, I did say that it's a half-baked theory   What I was thinking, though, is that the Dor still exists as a more or less "unified" source of power or pseudo-Shard in a way Honor doesn't anymore. (Come to think of it, maybe that's why it's one exception -- the Dor -- not two -- Devotion and Dominion -- who no longer exist.)

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I think the biggest mistake you are making is assuming that AonDor was in the spiritual realm before the splintering. Everything we know about the magic system points towards it having been in the cognitive for the magic to have worked pre-odium.

Do we know that Sel's regionalized magic systems worked the same way (or indeed existed at all) before Odium? I don't think we know the timeline for Odium's visit to Sel except that it was before the book Elantris.

16 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think that what it is saying is that a shard's power is not diminished when it is invested because that power still remains in the spiritual realm, therefore still close enough for the shard to have possession of it, because distance stops mattering.

That's possible too. I read it as, as long as the Shard exists (as an unified entity, non-Splintered) everything composed of its Investiture is still part of it, since the Shard is in the Spiritual Realm and thus Connections matter, not physical distance.

[Jondesu he/him]

Hmm, I just had a thought occur to me that fits well with this theory.

So it's generally accepted that the bulk of a Shard's power is "in" the Spiritual Realm, their mind is basically the Vessel's mind, albeit shaped over time by their Intent, and that lives in the Cognitive Realm, while of course they have various Physical Realm manifestations depending on the planet where they're located.

What if destroying the mind, the Vessel, causes Investiture to flow from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive because it's attempting to fill the hole left behind? Think of a container with multiple chambers, filled with water. If you empty one chamber, and there's any type of opening, water will try to flow from the others into the empty one.

I think power tends to flow from the Spiritual, through the Cognitive (where it is shaped and given purpose) into the Physical, and then from there it does whatever it's designed to do before being recycled back into the Spiritual. That means there's already a "hole" from the Spiritual into the Cognitive, so if there's a vacuum of Investiture in the Cognitive because the Shard's mind is destroyed (by killing the Vessel, or whatever other methods might work), it'll suck the Investiture in from the Spiritual. It's not like water, though, and doesn't naturally stick together, especially during a traumatic transition like that, so you get lots of pieces, or Splinters.

On Roshar at least, many of those Splinters, the Spren, also leaked through into the Physical Realm in many ways, providing a release valve and keeping the Cognitive Realm relatively safe. On Sel, there's no release valve, so all that power is just bottled up and rushing around with nowhere to go, making it the dangerous place we know it to be.

[Yata he/him]

On 3/11/2016 at 1:22 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I think that what it is saying is that a shard's power is not diminished when it is invested because that power still remains in the spiritual realm, therefore still close enough for the shard to have possession of it, because distance stops mattering. On the other hand, with Scadrial, the same thing is occurring. Their power is invested into the spiritual aspect of the physical world. Yes the world appears in the physical realm, but it also has a spiritual aspect and that is where they place their power, allowing them to always access it. If their power was physically invested into Scadrial, they wouldn't be able to just access it, as we saw with Ruin trying to find his atium. Spren work the same way. They have a cognitive aspect which defines them located in the cognitive realm, but their spiritual aspect is in the spiritual realm, and that is where their innate investiture is located. 

I would like this idea, but do we actually have already a counter proof ? Preservation become weaker than Ruin for his extra Investimen in Human's Souls

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

I would like this idea, but do we actually have already a counter proof ? Preservation become weaker than Ruin for his extra Investimen in Human's Souls

Now I'm actually crossing topics because I posted an explanation for this in another one. 

20 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That last part is just a guess, but maybe in general, the extra innate investiture required for sentience and sapience is so that enough investiture leaks from the spiritual into the cognitive and develops the cognitive aspect. [Cognitive Realm in Sel] thread

So here's a very loose theory, but basically, Preservation gave the humans the extra investiture so that they could be sapient, and for this to occur, the investiture leaked from the spiritual to the cognitive, augmenting their cognitive and making them smarter. At the same time, since the investiture was no longer in the cognitive realm, Preservation lost easy access to it and became weaker. The same thing happened when Ruin and Preservation made Scadrial. They moved a lot of their investiture into the physical realm, therefore losing easy access to it.

This related slightly to a question I've wanted to pose Brandon regarding the relative strengths of Shards. I'm fairly certain that you cannot quantify the power of shards, but I'm interested in comparisons like "Ruin is stronger than Preservation post-Scadrian Sapience", "Harmony is stronger than Odium"?, etc. I feel like this question would give an idea of what events diminish and separate a shard from its power.

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

I would like this idea, but do we actually have already a counter proof ? Preservation become weaker than Ruin for his extra Investimen in Human's Souls

I think these are talking about different things. The power in humans' souls still "belongs to" Preservation - he remains linked to it just as Honor was to his spren, before his Splintering. In a total sense Preservation isn't diminished. But that power is committed. It can't be doing two things at once: every Investiture-unit in a human soul is one Preservation can't be using to oppose Ruin.