gender appeal in sci-fi/fantasy books

[maxal]

Sounds interesting, but I would need to read the whole thread first.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Whoa, much flame back then. I agree this is an important topic for discussion because each author has their own representation, male or female. Arguably, I haven't read many books by female authors in the plain old fantasy/sci-fi genre - only a few - but those i have read were pretty storming amazing. I wasn't a big fan of Anne McCaffrey but I did enjoy reading the first Dragonriders book (it was more her writing style than characterisation that turned me away). Gail Z Martin is another favourite. Her female co-lead didn't really fit any stereotype niche apart from a very few standard basics, the rest was superb. Robin Hobb's Rain Wilds was also amazing and Trudi Canavan and Kate Elliot are also pretty good along with Helen Lowe.

 

The only books I've read prominently written by females is in the Dark Fantasy genre. Mediocre at best but to be expected after the success of Twilight. There was one series i've yet to finish by Kristen Painter called House of Comarre which is actually not too bad; it has a strong female lead that isn't too stereotypical, along with a nice female villain too...but most other ones are pretty pants so the less said on that the better.

 

Ian Irvine's portrayal of some of his characters in his Three Worlds series, especially his females in particular, are quite interesting and somewhat a bit erratic but also quite strong at points. Mark Charan Newton's Nights of Villjamur has a few good leads also. Say what you want about Paolini's Inheritance saga, i reckon he wrote Arya pretty damnation well.

 

It has been a long time since i've read most of these books, so my memory's a bit hazy on exact portrayals xD  

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I'd be interested in continuing this discussion, so...

 

One thing I've noticed is that, in sci-fi and fantasy that tends to gain mainstream popularity, female characters are often either sidekicks (Hermione Granger) love interests for the hero (Arya) or intentionally kick-butt protagonists (Katniss Everdeen). Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with any of those story roles. What bothers me is that the first two are nearly always filled by women, while the last one, when filled by a woman, is filled by a woman who takes on many traditionally male traits. 

 

Take Katniss as a well-known example. She's a fantastic archer, a famous hunter in her community, harbors a deep hatred of the Capitol, projecting a tough exterior while caring deeply about those closest to her, particularly her sister. There's nothing wrong with those traits. They work well for a protagonist of a dystopian series, giving the audience someone to root for and empathize with. However, those are her defining traits. She possesses few others to speak of. So what's wrong with that? Try changing the pronouns from "she" to "he." 

 

Presto! You have a ready-made hero, with no indication that he was once female. Nothing was lost in the transition. Katniss could very well be a hero instead of a heroine, and no one would be any the wiser. Just replace her dresses with tailor-made suits. (If you want to write a more politically liberal story, you don't even have to change Gale and Peeta to women. ) 

 

The Inheritance Cycle gives us Arya, another well-known example. Again, we have a beautiful, kick-butt elf who the hero falls for. Nothing wrong with that….except for the fact that Arya is never defined as anything beyond the hero's love interest. Oh, sure, we get some hints about her past, her personal beliefs, and her family life, but she is there to be Eragon's love interest. You could argue that she resists the role for the majority of the series, but it doesn't change the fact that this is her role. The hero moons over her and she resists it. Her function in the story is to make Eragon pine for her and to make him sad when she resents his pining, and that is her main role. 

 

Hermione, on the other hand, is an interesting example. She is Harry's sidekick, and a future love interest for Ron, but I see no reason why she shouldn't have been the main character of the entire series. She's brilliant, figuring out logic puzzles that stump adults and mastering nonverbal spells before she reaches her majority. Her introductory scene shows her helping a perfect stranger find his lost pet, showing she's quite caring. If she were male, she would have been the hero, and I daresay wizarding Britain would have been the better for it. Never mind Harry's reckless solutions to everyday problems; Hermione has a well-thought-out ten-point plan that gets results in half the time and garners few (if any) casualties. 

 

I think all this is why I found Shallan Davar to be such a breath of fresh air. In her first appearance, she turns one major stereotype on its head: Rather than being a strong, confident protagonist, she is shy and quite naive, preferring to sketch people rather than talk with them. Yet she is determined to get what she needs, and she pulls out all the stops to get it. Although she is technically motivated by a male character, the characters in question are her brothers, resulting in a much more natural (and permanent) connection than that of a love interest. It leaves her freer to develop as a character. 

 

Her character development, rather than defined by a male hero (as with Arya or Hermione) or a love interest (as with Katniss) is defined by another woman. Jasnah acts as a foil for Shallan's naivety, spurring her to greater acts of bravery. However, her acts of bravery, in both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, are not the acts of a warrior. Her bravery is channeled through scholarship and her interactions with others, such as Vathah and Tvlakev. And the men in her world pay attention. 

 

That's why I think Shallan is such a wonderful example of a strong female protagonist. She doesn't begin as a strong woman, but she becomes stronger as the series progresses. Her strength isn't in typically "masculine" activities; if anything, she excels in traditionally feminine pursuits. Yet she uses her talents to save the world and those around her, gaining confidence in herself not through her relationship to a man, but thanks to the guidance of a woman who taught her how to trust in herself. 

[Ookla the Absent]

I think there has to be a distinction made between sexism by authors and portrayals of sexism in books. I'll probably get bashed for this, but sometimes the culture within a book makes it impossible for men and women to be on equal grounds. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and often these books feature female characters who have to exercise influence in different ways, which can be interesting. I'm not saying it's always like that, but I've found that books with restrictions like that make for stronger characters, both in-book and character-wise. There is a thread going of good female authors, many of which have well-written female characters.

You have to differentiate between intentional and unintentional sexism on the author's part. One example in Sanderson's work was Marasi. A lot of people hated her, because she wasn't Vin. She was soft, and stereotypically "woman". When someone challenged Brandon on this, he said the difference was intentional, she was designed to be a counterpoint to Vin.

 

edit: I recommend reading the Saga of Recluse by L.E. Modesitt, jr. Most of the protagonists are male, and, iirc, all of the point of view characters, but some of the books are set in matriarchal societies, lending a different perspective. His early books aren't so great on that regard (particularly the first character has a few annoying faults), but it gets better later in. I promise.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Gargoyle

[maxal]

Presto! You have a ready-made hero, with no indication that he was once female. Nothing was lost in the transition. Katniss could very well be a hero instead of a heroine, and no one would be any the wiser. Just replace her dresses with tailor-made suits. (If you want to write a more politically liberal story, you don't even have to change Gale and Peeta to women. ) 

 

      You made me roll with this last one      I agree with all you said. Should we talk of Beatrice Prior? 

 

 

I think all this is why I found Shallan Davar to be such a breath of fresh air. In her first appearance, she turns one major stereotype on its head: Rather than being a strong, confident protagonist, she is shy and quite naive, preferring to sketch people rather than talk with them. Yet she is determined to get what she needs, and she pulls out all the stops to get it. Although she is technically motivated by a male character, the characters in question are her brothers, resulting in a much more natural (and permanent) connection than that of a love interest. It leaves her freer to develop as a character. 

 

Her character development, rather than defined by a male hero (as with Arya or Hermione) or a love interest (as with Katniss) is defined by another woman. Jasnah acts as a foil for Shallan's naivety, spurring her to greater acts of bravery. However, her acts of bravery, in both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, are not the acts of a warrior. Her bravery is channeled through scholarship and her interactions with others, such as Vathah and Tvlakev. And the men in her world pay attention. 

 

That's why I think Shallan is such a wonderful example of a strong female protagonist. She doesn't begin as a strong woman, but she becomes stronger as the series progresses. Her strength isn't in typically "masculine" activities; if anything, she excels in traditionally feminine pursuits. Yet she uses her talents to save the world and those around her, gaining confidence in herself not through her relationship to a man, but thanks to the guidance of a woman who taught her how to trust in herself. 

 

Shallan is a great character because she undeniably is a women who grows and uses her skill to accomplish work. Whereas she does get entangled with a romantic ship, she called it "a pleasant surprise".

 

 

You have to differentiate between intentional and unintentional sexism on the author's part. One example in Sanderson's work was Marasi. A lot of people hated her, because she wasn't Vin. She was soft, and stereotypically "woman". When someone challenged Brandon on this, he said the difference was intentional, she was designed to be a counterpoint to Vin.

 

I was not aware people disliked Marasi. I rather liked her. Not all female characters have to be beaten underdogs who kick everyone asses. I love the fact Marasi was a simple women, studying at university and being in her riffle team. One gets tired of the under dog after a while.

[Ookla the Absent]

I was not aware people disliked Marasi. I rather liked her. Not all female characters have to be beaten underdogs who kick everyone asses. I love the fact Marasi was a simple women, studying at university and being in her rifle team. One gets tired of the under dog after a while.

I agree, but some people don't. I felt that it gave her more character that way, just like how what made Vin appeal wasn't how strong she was or her underdog background, but the way she used her strength and, especially, how her background made her view the world so much differently than other people. Dear, blunt Vin, who was perfectly fine with telling people that she didn't like them [coughing fit]Allrianne[/coughing fit] and freaked out when she realized she had gone to sleep in Elends room, not for propriety's sake but for paranoia's.

[maxal]

I agree, but some people don't. I felt that it gave her more character that way, just like how what made Vin appeal wasn't how strong she was or her underdog background, but the way she used her strength and, especially, how her background made her view the world so much differently than other people. Dear, blunt Vin, who was perfectly fine with telling people that she didn't like them [coughing fit]Allrianne[/coughing fit] and freaked out when she realized she had gone to sleep in Elends room, not for propriety's sake but for paranoia's.

 

I personally liked the fact Vin enjoyed the balls and the beautiful gowns............. that was unexpected and delightful.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

      You made me roll with this last one      I agree with all you said. Should we talk of Beatrice Prior? 

 

Who could have just as easily been Bernard Prior? I mean, really, there's nothing inherently "female" about getting your butt kicked during training (and don't even get me started on how terrible Dauntless training is). Anyone who was raised in a society that believes self-defense is selfish would do poorly in the early days of combat training. Tris could have been a small, thin boy unaccustomed to physical exertion and it would have worked just as well. 

 

I personally liked the fact Vin enjoyed the balls and the beautiful gowns............. that was unexpected and delightful.

 

I loved that aspect of her character. So many authors seem to think that beautiful gowns are poison to strong female characters; that for a woman to be strong, she has to hate being perceived as feminine. But I think that strength can take on all sorts of appearances. You can have a strong female character who hates gowns and balls and dresses in trousers whenever she can, but you can have an equally strong female character who loves dressing up in gowns and dancing through the night.