Voice in Sazed's mind

[Herowannabe]

My apologies if this has been asked or answered elsewhere, but I've been wondering this for a while:

 

Who is the speaker of the voice that Sazed hears in his head during his fight with Marsh in chapter 58 of the Well of Ascension? Has anybody asked Brandon about this yet? Is it even a "voice" or is it just Sazed's muddled thoughts?

 

UPDATE as of 3/29/2013: I just asked Brandon about this at a signing, and he gave an impish grin. I asked if it was Kelsier and he said that he is not going to answer at this time. Hmm.... 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Herowannabe

[Aether]

Would you mind quoting the passage? I do not have my book with me.

[Pechvarry]

The voice telling Sazed that he still has his (now embedded) metalminds?  I don't have the passage handy, but Brandon has never mentioned it as one way or another I believe.  But I always wondered if it was an oversight and it's Kelsier's voice.

[Aether]

I checked the annotations for this chapter, but there is no mention of it.

[Oudeis]

I kinda took it as Sazed's own mind, spurred by his instinctive Feruchemical sense that he was touching metal he could use. I'm sure I've read WoB that when a Keeper, even an untrained one, touches metal, he gets an inherent feeling that there's something he could do with it. I just sorta figured that Sazed started getting that bizarre yet familiar sensation, and the part of his brain that recognized it started yelling, "Yo, gelding! Metalminds here! Wake up!"

 

Could it have been Kelsier? He didn't yet have the power of Preservation, as the Shadow of Self was still kicking around, yeah? And we've heard that he could only speak to Spook because Spook truly believed in his divinity... does Sazed's "all religions have an element of truth" count?

[digitalbusker]

Only one way to win a knife fight against a guy with a sword... Elend thought, gripping his knife. The thought, oddly, hadn't come from one of his trainers, or even from Vin. He wasn't sure where it came from, but he trusted it.

Close in tight as fast as possible, and kill quickly.

Those weren't coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

The thought rattled in his dying mind.

The bag Marsh shot at you. Those weren't coins. They were rings, Sazed. Eight of them. You took out two--eyesight and hearing. You left the other ones where they were.

In the pouch, tucked into your sash.

I have always assumed that both of these passages are Kelsier intervening. It just seems like the kind of advice he'd give, and it reads to me like his voice (and maybe more importantly, definitely not Elend or Sazed's voices).

Granted, it's a little odd that he knows what senses the two tin rings were storing, but if he was watching closely it shouldn't be that hard to work out from context.

[Herowannabe]

Oh interesting, I hadn't thought of Kelsier. My guesses were Preservation or Tindwyl. Kelsier makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the voice that Elend hears (thanks Digitalbusker for providing the quotes). Plus Brandon has said repeatedly that Kelsier just can't stop meddling, even when dead.

Edit: Still, I think I'll ask Brandon about it the next chance I get.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Herowannabe

[Argent]

Yea, I'll have to vote for Kelsier. It's possible that Sazed is addressing himself, but for some reason this doesn't feel right.

[digitalbusker]

Those were, unfortunately, not coins, a voice seemed to whisper.

[name_here]

I don't think it's Kelsier; from what I understand he could only give advice while Preservation was uncontrolled.

[digitalbusker]

I don't think it's Kelsier; from what I understand he could only give advice while Preservation was uncontrolled.

I understand that that's the prevailing wisdom, and I certainly don't have a Realmatic framework to explain how it could have been Kelsier, but who else is it going to be?

I am starting from the assumption that both of the voice-in-head incidents I quoted above were external entities "speaking" to the character in question. So, who or what was speaking?

Ruin speaks to people in their heads sometimes, but only if they're mentally unstable or spiked, which leaves Elend's example out, and only works for Sazed if the rings piercing his abdomen count. Also I'm not really sure why Ruin would want to save either of those characters, although it's clear from Marsh's behavior that Sazed's death wasn't a priority.

If Kelsier gained the ability to speak to some people in some way once he was holding Preservation's power, that implies that Preservation could also do that, so maybe it was Leras. But why didn't Leras do that while trying to communicate with Elend in HoA? (Maybe after Ruin was freed the balance tipped enough that he could stop Preservation from doing that, or maybe what was left of Preservation wasn't smart/strong enough to do that any more?) Or really, if Preservation could speak to Elend, why not say "Releasing the power at the Well will free Ruin, Mistsickness is Allomantic Snapping, and the people who are sick longest are Mistings who can burn Atium, which b-t-dubs is Ruin's body which he'll totally be looking for if he does get free--also don't say any of this out loud b/c Ruin is totes listening in on you. Oh! ProTip: he can read and change written materials unless they're inscribed in metal, kthxbye." If it was Leras/Preservation, it still seems likely that he was passing along things Kelsier told him to say, lacking the presence of mind to come up with more detailed messages based on stuff Kelsier didn't know yet.

[Oudeis]

I understand that that's the prevailing wisdom, and I certainly don't have a Realmatic framework to explain how it could have been Kelsier, but who else is it going to be?

I am starting from the assumption that both of the voice-in-head incidents I quoted above were external entities "speaking" to the character in question. So, who or what was speaking?

Ruin speaks to people in their heads sometimes, but only if they're mentally unstable or spiked, which leaves Elend's example out, and only works for Sazed if the rings piercing his abdomen count. Also I'm not really sure why Ruin would want to save either of those characters, although it's clear from Marsh's behavior that Sazed's death wasn't a priority.

If Kelsier gained the ability to speak to some people in some way once he was holding Preservation's power, that implies that Preservation could also do that, so maybe it was Leras. But why didn't Leras do that while trying to communicate with Elend in HoA? (Maybe after Ruin was freed the balance tipped enough that he could stop Preservation from doing that, or maybe what was left of Preservation wasn't smart/strong enough to do that any more?) Or really, if Preservation could speak to Elend, why not say "Releasing the power at the Well will free Ruin, Mistsickness is Allomantic Snapping, and the people who are sick longest are Mistings who can burn Atium, which b-t-dubs is Ruin's body which he'll totally be looking for if he does get free--also don't say any of this out loud b/c Ruin is totes listening in on you. Oh! ProTip: he can read and change written materials unless they're inscribed in metal, kthxbye." If it was Leras/Preservation, it still seems likely that he was passing along things Kelsier told him to say, lacking the presence of mind to come up with more detailed messages based on stuff Kelsier didn't know yet.

 

Heh.

 

There's also a WoB floating around somewhere saying that Ruin could speak to people but not read minds, but Preservation could read minds but not speak to people, which is why Sazed can do both. So I'm not sure it's preservation.

 

I also question if it's Kelsier. True, it does really, really sound like him in both cases. They are things Kelsier would know; he was an excellent knife-fighter, and one of the few people to know about feruchemy and how it works. And it's just the sort of mentoring he'd do, to the two most important people in Vin's life, and as his surrogate daughter she's the most important person in his lif- er, you know what I mean. Existence?

 

However... in the annotations (I think) it's mentioned that Kelsier can only talk to Spook because Spook truly believed in Kelsier's divinity. Sazed's faith, if it was ever focused enough to be useful in this regard, had been pretty badly shaken at this point; Elend expressly did not believe in the Church of the Survivor.

 

On balance, however, I think I'm going with Kelsier. We know it's possible for him to talk to people, it sounds like his voice, and it really couldn't be anyone else. The fact that it's easier for him to give clearer messages to "devout followers" doesn't mean it's impossible to give to a man with a history of believing all faiths, or another who at least ostensibly has joined the church. It doesn't feel like a perfect answer, but it's the best I think we can do with what we've got.

[Robot Aztec]

Mr. sandesrron said itw was just elends' training when he heard the voice and not anyone else but for sazer i am not sure it could even be runi since that would be a thing he might wnat to set up to help with advice later just etting something up so he could use

[digitalbusker]

Mr. sandesrron said itw was just elends' training when he heard the voice and not anyone else but for sazer i am not sure it could even be runi since that would be a thing he might wnat to set up to help with advice later just etting something up so he could use

A cite for that would be great.

 

OT: I've only been active here for a little while, and I've inferred that there are resources for looking up WoB information from signings and such, but never really had time to seek them out. Is there a handy guide somewhere that somebody can point me to?

[Oudeis]

OT: I've only been active here for a little while, and I've inferred that there are resources for looking up WoB information from signings and such, but never really had time to seek them out. Is there a handy guide somewhere that somebody can point me to?

 

There's a website called "Theoryland" which is apparently not terribly easy to search, though easy enough to browse. If you think you recall a particular quote, I personally just google "theoryland <relevant words from the quote>" and hope I luck out.

 

Or, if you do want to find a specific quote, there are a lot of Sharders who excel at searching that site, and love reputation, so I usually just post, "upvote if anyone can find this quote" and they've typically found it while I'm still trying to sift through my google results.

[Robot Aztec]

A cite for that would be great.

It was adminsigning innfo on the forum that is where I read it

[Shardlet]

Mr. sandesrron said itw was just elends' training when he heard the voice and not anyone else but for sazer i am not sure it could even be runi since that would be a thing he might wnat to set up to help with advice later just etting something up so he could use

A cite for that would be great.

 

OT: I've only been active here for a little while, and I've inferred that there are resources for looking up WoB information from signings and such, but never really had time to seek them out. Is there a handy guide somewhere that somebody can point me to?

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

2. Zas: In Well of Ascension, there are two strange“voice in the head” experiences. One of them is with Sazed and Marsh are fighting, and Sazed realizes that he can burn the metal rings that are now inhis stomach. But the other one is with Elend, when avoice comes, and he’s not sure where it comes from. It says something like “If you have a dagger, theonly way to win is to go in for the kill”

Brandon: That one, where it came from, is – I know what youare searching for, but it’s actually just an old (something) from weapons training. He’s just dredging- he’s not sure where it came from because he neverthought he would need any of it, he thought he was just going to be a scholar.But his father did have him trained in weapons, so it’s just instinct that he got from one of his old mentors infighting.

So there’s nothing to see there, so no, he’s not (something).

Zas: Okay. We were just wondering if it was Preservation, or Kelsier.

Brandon: Nope. Unfortunately, no. I do that on occasion, but this time 

 Source

Edited January 27, 2014 by Shardlet

[digitalbusker]

I did manage to find the quote Robot Aztec mentioned in the Theoryland interview database here (thanks, Darnam).

ZAS

In Well of Ascension, there are two strange "voice in the head" experiences. One of them is with Sazed and Marsh are fighting, and Sazed realizes that he can burn the metal rings that are now in his stomach. But the other one is with Elend, when a voice comes, and he’s not sure where it comes from. It says something like "If you have a dagger, the only way to win is to go in for the kill"

BRANDON SANDERSON

That one, where it came from, is – I know what you are searching for, but it’s actually just an old (something) from weapons training. He’s just dredging- he’s not sure where it came from because he never thought he would need any of it, he thought he was just going to be a scholar. But his father did have him trained in weapons, so it’s just instinct that he got from one of his old mentors in fighting.

So there’s nothing to see there, so no, he’s not (something).

ZAS

Okay. We were just wondering if it was Preservation, or Kelsier.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nope. Unfortunately, no. I do that on occasion, but this time...

Well, phooey. I liked the idea that Kell was watching out for Elend, but there you go. I note he didn't address the Sazed incident in this question, though.

[Delightful]

There's also a moment I've been wondering about, when Vin is in the WoA deciding whether to save Elend or not, a voice speaks to her in her head, telling her to give up the power so it can defeat the Deepness. That's Ruin, isn't it? Even though she doesn't have her earring in?

(I feel like I should know this but haven't read HoA in a while. Apologies if the answer is obvious).

[Awesomeness Summoned]

There's also a moment I've been wondering about, when Vin is in the WoA deciding whether to save Elend or not, a voice speaks to her in her head, telling her to give up the power so it can defeat the Deepness. That's Ruin, isn't it? Even though she doesn't have her earring in?

(I feel like I should know this but haven't read HoA in a while. Apologies if the answer is obvious).

When vin took up preservation's power later on she could hear and speak to ruin easily. I'd guess the shards can directly speak to each other so when she accessed the well she was ascended enough for ruin to be able to speak to her directly whether she had metal piercing her or not.

[digitalbusker]

Yeah, and we've got lots of references to Ruin speaking to Rashek when he held the power.

[Herowannabe]

Update: just asked Brandon who spoke to Sazed, and he gave an impish grin. I asked if it was Kelsier and he said that he is not going to answer at this time. Hmm....

[Vortaan]

Going to throw two more contenders into the ring: Hoid and the God Beyond. We haven't seen the God Beyond's purpose or really much of it, but I can't help but wonder if Sazed's crisis of faith at the end of this book was important to it for some reason. As for Hoid... well, getting someone to have two Shards seems to be a good thing from his perspective, and 

 

If Yolen Lightweaving works like Shallan's Lightweaving, he can probably make sounds as well as illusions

[Numb]

Update: just asked Brandon who spoke to Sazed, and he gave an impish grin. I asked if it was Kelsier and he said that he is not going to answer at this time. Hmm....

 

This was before Kelsier took up preservation correct? Think before Leras died Kelsier couldn't interact with the people so I don't think it's him. If it is in fact him then it begs the question if Vin can interact with the people since she is/was a silver?

[name_here]

This was before Kelsier took up preservation correct? Think before Leras died Kelsier couldn't interact with the people so I don't think it's him. If it is in fact him then it begs the question if Vin can interact with the people since she is/was a silver?

 

I gather from some of the annotations and Sazed's message to Spook that she theoretically could have hung around, but instead she and Elend opted to head off into whatever the afterlife proper is in the Cosmere. Kelsier is too stubborn to die just because he's dead, so he's sitting around hassling people.