The current system is doomed!

[JUQ]

Please excuse the title. I'm feeling dramatic today. It feels like an over-throwing governments kind of day, really.

Anyway, down to business. The point I want to make is kind of intuitive, so it's hard to get across. The current theory of 16 ordinary metals and 2 God metals just doesn't wash with me. There is a precedent for it being wrong - in the days of the Final Empire, people believed there were only 10 metals. I think that there is no way there would be 2 'God metals' as well as 16 normal ones. It just doesn't seem simple, which goes against the grain of pretty much everything in Mistborn - there is sort of a precedent for simplicity. Of course, there's the powers of two theory, which may or may not have already been discussed - I joined this site only 15 minutes ago. I'll explain that to y'all - and likely get it blasted out of the water - some time. The other point is that all of the other metals are paired - which makes sense, given that Ruin and Preservation are opposites. Therefore, you would expect Atium and Lerasium to be opposites. They aren't. Whoops.

Now, another thing to confuse y'all - if you've even made it this far: What should an alloy of Atium and Lerasium be called? Harmonium? Sazedium? Neither of these sounds good, which make me wish that Elend or Breeze was Harmony - Elendium and Breezium sound much better.

[kenod]

Harmonium seems to be a seperate metal, not an alloy. The reason that there are only 2 God metals is because only two Shards have Invested in Scandrial. If another Shard Invested enough he would get a God metal too. This means that there potentially room for 16 God metals, instead of two.

Also, on Lerasium and Atium not being opposites, remember that we don't know everything Lerasium does, there are hints that it can do a lot more than just make people Allomancers. Second of all, while they are probably not each others opposites, they do both deal with the Spiritual Realm. Lerasium changes you sDNA, while Atium allows you to peek into the Spiritual Realm, allowing you to gain extremely limited Shardic Future Sight. So I would say that although they aren't opposites, it is possible that they would still be in the same quadrant for the God metals.

[JUQ]

Wow, there'a actually a metal called Harmonium? Is it in Bands? If so, don't say anything about it. Please.

Thanks for clearing that other stuff up.

[kenod]

1 minute ago, The True Survivor said:

Wow, there'a actually a metal called Harmonium? Is it in Bands? If so, don't say anything about it. Please.

Thanks for clearing that other stuff up.

We know if it through WoB (Word of Brandon). The reason it is called Harmonium and not Sazedium is because Sazed thought Sazedium sounded really bad (also a WoB).

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, The True Survivor said:

The current theory of 16 ordinary metals and 2 God metals just doesn't wash with me. There is a precedent for it being wrong - in the days of the Final Empire, people believed there were only 10 metals.

We know from Mistborn Secret History that there are only 16 Base Metals, because

Spoiler

Preservation himself says so.

2 hours ago, The True Survivor said:

I think that there is no way there would be 2 'God metals' as well as 16 normal ones. It just doesn't seem simple, which goes against the grain of pretty much everything in Mistborn - there is sort of a precedent for simplicity.

Regardless of what all gets argued/disproved beforehand, I would like to hear your opinion on what would be more simple.

2 hours ago, The True Survivor said:

The other point is that all of the other metals are paired - which makes sense, given that Ruin and Preservation are opposites. Therefore, you would expect Atium and Lerasium to be opposites. They aren't. Whoops.

I understand this argument, but I will say that unless Brandon's done an off-the-record chat with someone, then nobody on this forum really know what Lerasium properly does, because making people Mistborn is a "side effect" of a stronger connection to Preservation.

Quote

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation’s body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn’t the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

As for Harmonium, we have yet to hear either way if it is an alloy or a separate metal. Perhaps in the next Wax/Wayne book, we will know more

[Yata]

I will just add another information to the already good explaination of @The One Who Connects and @kenod.

You already "saw" another "misterious metal" that don't fit your Magical-Metal Knowledge (16 mundane metals and 2 god metals). It's the Malatium (knowed in the Mistborn Trilogy as "the eleventh Metal"), this metal could exist for a peculiar feature of the god metals.

They may be forged into an alloy with everyelse metal of the 16 (the mundane metal compatible with the Metallic Arts) and indeed the Eleventh Metal (or Malatium) is simply an alloy of Atium and Gold. This mean that every god metal offer 16 new alloy to the Metallic arts (but before you ask we know just the Allomantical effect of the malatium and the allomantical effect of Lerasium Alloys that create Mistings instead of the flexibility of the pure Lerasium).

[The One Who Connects]

43 minutes ago, Yata said:

This mean that every god metal offer 16 new alloy to the Metallic arts

I want to argue this, but Brandon has been... contradictory at times about that subject.

Source 1 and Source 2

Quote

Oct 15th, 2010

17th Shard

Are there a limited amount of Atium and Lerasium alloys for each metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm, yes…I suppose there would be but there are…

17TH SHARD

More than sixteen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, way more than sixteen.

17TH SHARD

Oh wow. Okay. That's fascinating. More than sixteen and less than infinite.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Quote

Nov 24th, 2011

Fire Arcadia

Are there 50 Allomantic Metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Nearly. Does Harmony have a metal?

FIRE ARCADIA

Is that an alloy of Lerasium and Atium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You're along the right lines.

Those 2 have confused me for so long, since he seemed so sure that there were more than 16 alloys each, yet later said there are nearly 50 Allomantic Metals. I've always heard "nearly" as almost/just under, so the math doesn't seem to fit.

[JUQ]

Maybe he's just a bit confused about them himself when he's put on the spot, but it doesn't really seem like Brandon would do stuff like that - judging on his writing, he seems like the sort of person who'd remember almost everything.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I want to argue this, but Brandon has been... contradictory at times about that subject.

Source 1 and Source 2

Those 2 have confused me for so long, since he seemed so sure that there were more than 16 alloys each, yet later said there are nearly 50 Allomantic Metals. I've always heard "nearly" as almost/just under, so the math doesn't seem to fit.

I think he interpreted the first WoB as "more than 16 god metal alloys per god metal," which makes sense both from the questioner side and the answerer side.

[goody153]

Quote

which make me wish that Elend or Breeze was Harmony - Elendium and Breezium sound much better.

Yeah Harmonium isn't very pleasing to pronounce in my head or mouth. Elendium sounds sick.

14 hours ago, The True Survivor said:

Wow, there'a actually a metal called Harmonium? Is it in Bands? If so, don't say anything about it. Please.

Thanks for clearing that other stuff up.

No it's not the bands afaik. We haven't seen Harmonium yet i think. That metal has also been famously been speculated by non-other than the Lord Mistborn (according to one of the elendel newspapers ) saying "having the has sazed a metal" or something along like that lol

Edited September 30, 2016 by goody153

[Yata]

But actually to get (almost) 50 Metals we have to have a single Alloy per metal.

(facts)

16 mundane metal+16 Atium-Mundane Metal Alloys +16 Lerasium-Mundane Metal Alloys + Pure Atium +Pure Lerasium + Harmonium =51 Metals.

(Speculation)

Of couse the interaction between God Metal maybe create another set, for example if the Hamornium is an alloy of Atium and Lerasium. It may have another set of 16 alloy with the mundane metals probably (and the Metals count rise to 67) .

(wild speculation)

But this may work with whatever couple of theoric God Metals...There would be an alloy Atium-Skaidium (fictional name) if the Skaidium was avaliable and the Skaidium alone may work as magical Metals or with a set of 16 Skaidium-Mundane Metal.

PS: I have to say that more I type "Skaidium" more I like the name 

[Savanorn]

To weigh in, what if unlike the standard metal alloys a god metal alloy could be in any ratio but would give different powers? That is, it wouldn't make some one sick if burned in a different ratio but merely behave differently. 

This would mean there would be 'more' than sixteen god metal alloys, strictly speaking, but that one could also say there'd be 48 (or 49) as well.

To elaborate, one could make Lerasium/Tin at 50/50, or 25/75, or 98/2, and each would do different things but all are still a single 'metal.'

This would seem like the smoothest approach to make the WoB non contradictory. 

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Savanorn said:

To elaborate, one could make Lerasium/Tin at 50/50, or 25/75, or 98/2, and each would do different things but all are still a single 'metal.'

This would seem like the smoothest approach to make the WoB non contradictory. 

I like the idea, but I feel like the Lerasium content would affect the strength of the power, rather than do many different things. Creating various strength mistings of the same type, rather than boatloads of differing abilities also helps create smoother plot conflict. "Hire the strongest mistings for the job" is much simpler than trying to keep track of yet more abilities and combinations.

It would make the WoB greatly less contradictory, but as Yata said, the base math still adds to 51. Perhaps Brandon uses "nearly" as a synonym to "roughly"..?

[Shadeshadow227]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I like the idea, but I feel like the Lerasium content would affect the strength of the power, rather than do many different things. Creating various strength mistings of the same type, rather than boatloads of differing abilities also helps create smoother plot conflict. "Hire the strongest mistings for the job" is much simpler than trying to keep track of yet more abilities and combinations.

It would make the WoB greatly less contradictory, but as Yata said, the base math still adds to 51. Perhaps Brandon uses "nearly" as a synonym to "roughly"..?

That's probably right. The Lerasium : Other Metal ratio would logically affect the strength of the power, rather than having different effects. A Mistborn can still burn metals if the purity of the metal is off, after all, although the effects will be weaker.  A 1:99 ratio should make a weaker Misting than a 98:2 ratio.

And "nearly" is a synonym to "roughly" when referring to numbers. It means both "slightly below" and "slightly above", although which meaning varies with the specific values one is referring to.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Shadeshadow227

[JUQ]

Let's just take a moment to appreciate Brandon's pure AWESOMENESS in giving us these series so we can theorize like this. All this without killing off our favorite characters (well, except Elend, Vin, and Kelsier. Breeze survived, so that's okay).

Edited September 30, 2016 by The True Survivor

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

That's probably right. The Lerasium : Other Metal ratio would logically affect the strength of the power, rather than having different effects. A Mistborn can still burn metals if the purity of the metal is off, after all, although the effects will be weaker.  A 1:99 ratio should make a weaker Misting than a 98:2 ratio.

And "nearly" is a synonym to "roughly" when referring to numbers. It means both "slightly below" and "slightly above", although which meaning varies with the specific values one is referring to.

Don't forget though that just because you can burn it, doesn't mean it won't be harmful. Alloy ratios that are too skewed from the allomantic alloy value can cause sickness and possible death. In WoA when Vin was trying to find a usable of alloy of aluminum, the incorrect alloys were making her sick, and IIRC, weren't yielding any noticeable effect other than the physical harm. 

[Shadeshadow227]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Don't forget though that just because you can burn it, doesn't mean it won't be harmful. Alloy ratios that are too skewed from the allomantic alloy value can cause sickness and possible death. In WoA when Vin was trying to find a usable of alloy of aluminum, the incorrect alloys were making her sick, and IIRC, weren't yielding any noticeable effect other than the physical harm. 

...oh. Kinda forgot about that.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 9/30/2016 at 6:05 PM, The True Survivor said:

Let's just take a moment to appreciate Brandon's pure AWESOMENESS in giving us these series so we can theorize like this. All this without killing off our favorite characters (well, except Elend, Vin, and Kelsier. Breeze survived, so that's okay).

Spoiler

One of those three is not very good at staying dead... 

 

[JUQ]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

One of those three is not very good at staying dead... 

 

Spoiler

He's not particularly well known for doing what he's told. BTW, is this M-SH spoilers? Because I haven't read it yet, but I think I remember a WoB about Kelsier 'not going towards the light' when he died, instead he 'hung around a bit'.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

I'm keeping the reference to what was written in the annotations, as I don't want to get in trouble. So no BoM or SH spoilers; just HoA annotations. Brandon's comment is funny though... 

Spoiler

'I know I said he wouldn't come back, but... well, he's Kelsier. He doesn't listen to what I say. He just does what he wants.'

I have this picture in my head of Brandon writing HoA with Kell behind him explaining where he was, what he was doing, and what he WILL do to Brandon if it isn't put into the book. Kelsier is grinning like it is all a big joke, and Brandon appears nervous, and has a 'what did I do? I've created a monster!' look on his face.

Someday, when I finish Kell's portrait, I'm going to draw that scene...

Makes me laugh every time. Not even his creator can get him to listen... which fits the character so well. 

Funny thing is, the biggest SH spoiler was spoiled years before the book came out for anyone who read the annotation to Chapter 58, part 3, of Hero of Ages. SH just tells us how the events written there happened.

[JUQ]

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I'm keeping the reference to what was written in the annotations, as I don't want to get in trouble. So no BoM or SH spoilers; just HoA annotations. Brandon's comment is funny though... 

  Reveal hidden contents

'I know I said he wouldn't come back, but... well, he's Kelsier. He doesn't listen to what I say. He just does what he wants.'

I have this picture in my head of Brandon writing HoA with Kell behind him explaining where he was, what he was doing, and what he WILL do to Brandon if it isn't put into the book. Kelsier is grinning like it is all a big joke, and Brandon appears nervous, and has a 'what did I do? I've created a monster!' look on his face.

Someday, when I finish Kell's portrait, I'm going to draw that scene...

Makes me laugh every time. Not even his creator can get him to listen... which fits the character so well. 

Funny thing is, the biggest SH spoiler was spoiled years before the book came out for anyone who read the annotation to Chapter 58, part 3, of Hero of Ages. SH just tells us how the events written there happened.

Okay, I got BoM and M:SH yesterday, and I read them. Yeah, both of them. I'm reading The Dark Talent today, and after this it'll just be White Sand and some short stories of his that I haven't read.

After reading them, I get even more of an impression that Brandon subconsciously based Kelsier on Moist von Lipwig from Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Both are charismatic con men... They are different in some fairly fundamental ways though. Then again, it may just be a con man thing. Both characters remind me a bit of Abagnale, as he seemed in his autobiography.