[Cosmere Spoilers] What to make of the Unmade?

[1stBondsmith]

I am aware of the deep discussions about the unmade, but I would posit a few new theories-

To use a lame sport metaphor...

FIRMLY IN THE FAIRWAY: (very well discussed and some documentation- arguing details about these would really just make this a necro thread)

A. The name Unmade could mean 1. they were made, but are not now, or 2. they exist but were not "made".

B. They exist now and still wield influence at least over mortals (Thrill, Death Rattles, etc).

C. We have a WoB stating that they are splinters of Odium NOW.

D. We know that the Parshendi (or other forms of Parshmen) were there before mortals and before heralds. We have a WoB stating that they were not made by Honor or Cultivation, and they are called the "Old People", likely  they and spren were made by Adonalsium earlier. They bonded spren and had many forms that were not the "God forms" which betrayed them to Odium's control later (it could be argued to "Their Gods", not Odium, but is was really bad either way, and they did things they disliked so much that they preferred to become Dull rather than continue this way).

Rolling into the Rough: (Where I want this discussion to start)

a. in A above, calling them the unmade because they were never made doesn't make sense to me. So to call them the Unmade must be that they were not made the same as everyone else. I think this lends itself to mean not made by Honor or Cultivation. Since we know that they came before Oduim, we are left with the following theory options: 1. They were made earlier by Adonalsuim when the Parshendi were made. I think this is likely since they have "Their Gods" from an incredibly long oral tradition, and they felt betrayed by spren that bonded to them previously and subsequently bonded to Knight Radiant. OR 2. They were made later by Odium directly and brought to (born into) the world under his control (I think we know they are mostly under his control by the desolation scenes and other historical info, but we can't be sure) We do know that as slivers, they would be strongly influenced by his Aspect.

b. We don't know who all of them are, what their influences are, or what damage they can do in the physical world. Obviously, they are tied to cognitive and Spiritual realms, affecting dreams, emotions, and when soul is leaving body. So how do they have access to men's minds in all three realms? Just taking advantage of a cracked spirit web implies they are specialized spren...could be. Are there deeper powers we do not have descriptions of yet? Likely.

c. Is the Nightwatcher one of the Unmade, or do we assume she is because she is the mother of Midnight Essence? She is also called the mother of Wyndal's type of spren, is she not? Is the first statement really true or characters' perspective in story? This is a common misdirection by Brandon.

d. When were the Unmade made Slivers? Was it at their creation? Were thy brought in, or were they taken over? (my favorite theory is the last, hence the ability to be treacherous to they other, like the Diagram mentions.)

e. No other being is mentioned as good potentials for Early Parshendi Gods than the Unmade. They derisively refer to mortals thinking that the greatshells were their gods. So who else would that leave?

Way in the Weeds: (Speculation with very incomplete education)

I. Could these Unmade be old spren originally given other talents that helped the Parshendi? Now, their Gods are turned in purpose by Odium and they fear them and bond to spren to make themselves dull to fill cracks in their spirit webs and hide from their Gods? Or or the Unmade a different kind of entity (the Old Magic type?) that influence all being on Roshar. Were they built to destroy and punish, or to hint and supplement? Has their original focus for living changed, or is it consistent, just not understood by our characters?

II. Can a Sliver actually turn against the intent of the Shard? Kelsier seems to have been able to... Was this what was hinted at by the Diagram or was it relating to the relation with the Parshendi?

III. Will the Unmade be critical to the upcoming battles with the Parshendi, or will they be part of the New Desolation?. Do they care about a side, or just their dominion?

Stuck in the Sand: (Wild speculation that likely will dead end, but might get lucky)

--One of the Unmade turns and helps either the Parshendi or KR in the upcoming battles against Odium's forces.

--They are spren bonded to Odium and invested to make them powerful Slivers, and the distraction of the treachery is part of Oduim's undoing, much like Kelsier Connected to Ruin helped end Ruin.

--Unmade are the source of the strange bonds to the Voidbringer of various types, and are key to their return.

--Cultivation can also influence Unmade as She once did before Odium, and uses them for purposes we do not yet have any visibility to.

--The Unmade are the physical manifestation of things that do not really exist, and are no danger in the Physical realm, except what we fear (cognative of sprirtual)

--Why does "The Unmade" sound a lot like "Those who died but did not"? Is there an initiation to the state that the IRE are in that might relate to the Unmade. I strongly doubt it, but made mention of it here.

 

And with that, PLEASE use you best brilliance in giving ideas for GOOD therories on this. If you explained your idea well before, please just post the link for details. If you get brain cannons from this or have a completely undiscussed idea, this is where we want them!

I salute you!

[BlackYeti]

Hmm, you've clearly put some thought into this, so I don't want to come across as too critical here. That being said, some of your statements have come out of nowhere to me.

Where did you hear that the Unmade were Slivers? I've never heard this before, a quick search turned up nothing on it, and it doesn't make much sense to me. The Unmade are known to be Splinters of Odium, which is a different thing entirely, and I'm not sure how they could be both. Is it possible that you mixed them up? As Splinters though, they are made of Odium's Investiture, and must have been made after Odium's arrival.

 

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

c. Is the Nightwatcher one of the Unmade, or do we assume she is because she is the mother of Midnight Essence? She is also called the mother of Wyndal's type of spren, is she not? Is the first statement really true or characters' perspective in story? This is a common misdirection by Brandon.

The Nightwatcher is not one of the Unmade: she is related to Cultivation in some way (there's speculation that she's a Splinter, but that's unconfirmed). Where did you hear that she's the mother of the Midnight Essence though? This is something else that I've never heard before. I've been assuming that Re-Shephir was the mother of the Midnight Essence due to her description in a death rattle as "the Midnight Mother"

 

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

--One of the Unmade turns and helps either the Parshendi or KR in the upcoming battles against Odium's forces.

The idea that one of the Unmade might have turned against Odium has been speculated on here.

 

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

--Why does "The Unmade" sound a lot like "Those who died but did not"? Is there an initiation to the state that the IRE are in that might relate to the Unmade. I strongly doubt it, but made mention of it here.

By the IRE I'm assuming that you're referring to (Secret History Spoilers)

Spoiler

the group that Kelsier steals that glowing ball from? If so, what makes you think that they're related to the Unmade in any way? The implication there seemed to be that they were Elantrians.

 

Well I hope this hasn't come across too negative , I'm not trying to shut down discussion here after all.

[1stBondsmith]

Sorry, I did put Sliver when I meant Splinter. Where do we have that a Splinter cannot be made of an existing being?

I will go look up the connection to NightWatcher and Midnight Essence. It was in book. Give me a bit. I don't have it electronically.

I was referring to the IRE, but what is the process that makes you like they are, or the unmade like they are? Is it related?

[marianmi]

i think they are called the unmade because they "unmake" (destroy)

 

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Since we know that they came before Oduim

To clarify for myself and any others, when did we learn this? Or perhaps I am misinterpreting, in which case, what are you implying by this?

The rest of the theories seem decent or have been argued already, so I'll hold off.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Sorry, I did put Sliver when I meant Splinter. Where do we have that a Splinter cannot be made of an existing being?

Quote

PUCK

"How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Let me see... You have met splinters in Elantris, Warbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn."

PUCK

"I feel like we know that. So, qualitatively, what's the difference?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human."

PUCK

"But it derives from a Shard's power."

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Yes. That's not it completely, but there's at least something to think about."

[WoB]

Few thoughts.

A. How has it been determined that Unmade likely existed pre-Odium and someone became splinters of him later on? I know you don't want to discuss this so a link to pertinent topics is okay.

a. and II. Splinters usually have their own intent, in addition to that of their respective shard. I suppose this means that, in theory, a splinter could eventually have two opposing intents, which could mean they could no longer be largely influenced by the intent of their shard. Also, I believe slivers are a lot less affected, to near negligible degrees, by the intent of whichever shard's investiture caused them to become a sliver. Can't say for certain since I haven't read SH. [WoB]

Last thing. Please fix the sliver error you have so that you are correctly labeling the Unmade as splinters. That would possibly change a point or two, definitely the one involving Kelsier.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Argel]

This may be relevant to the Unmade and Nightwatcher:

On 4/28/2016 at 10:19 PM, KolinahrMaster said:

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that NW:Cultivation::SF:Honor
2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entitiy; 
3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters; 
4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily splintered part of it's power
5) The SF is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

Edit: My first question in this off-camera inquiry was "Does the Nightwatcher predate the Shattering?" and he RAFO'ed on the grounds that the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather are parallel (see 1 above) and whatever he reveals about the Nightwatcher by extension spoils OathBringer which will be heavy on Dalinar and Stormfather reveals. He then trapped himself when he later said they were all parallel Shard-splinters (and thereby post-date the Shattering). 

Source for the above quote:

I don't see the Nightwatcher+Unmade connection -- the WoBs started out strongly hinting at the Nightwatcher:Cultivation connection (and so do the books), but more recently that has shifted to Brandon answering questions as if the connection has already been confirmed. If there was a mega-Unmade/Odium spoiler here, he would still be RAFO'ing the heck out if it instead of loosening up.

Interesting theory, but I think there are some false assumptions being made that hurt it.

[Yata]

The Stormfather is a really weird being...both a Sliver and a Splinter. I am waiting for Oathbringer to see well the Nightwatcher and try to figure the Bondsmith's bond better

Now that I think about it. The Stormfather is quite a parody of a Shard. It's a big Splinter of Investiture (magnitudes of Investiture below a Shard) controlled/merged with a Cognitive Shadow (indeed a really poor Vessel rather than a living one).

Edited September 27, 2016 by Yata

[1stBondsmith]

On 9/27/2016 at 0:36 AM, Yata said:

The Stormfather is a really weird being...both a Sliver and a Splinter. I am waiting for Oathbringer to see well the Nightwatcher and try to figure the Bondsmith's bond better

Now that I think about it. The Stormfather is quite a parody of a Shard. It's a big Splinter of Investiture (magnitudes of Investiture below a Shard) controlled/merged with a Cognitive Shadow (indeed a really poor Vessel rather than a living one).

Boy, I agree. I am very anxious to know about Bondsmiths' powers and work.

Sounds like the Unmade as splinters and the Nightwatcher ties to Cultivation is pretty set,

So what about the the Parshendi "Gods"? Who are they if not the Unmade and not the Greatshells? Not Adonalsium, because they are plural. So what then?

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Boy, I agree. I am very anxious to know about Bondsmiths' powers and work.

Sounds like the Unmade as splinters and the Nightwatcher ties to Cultivation is pretty set,

So what about the the Parshendi "Gods"? Who are they if not the Unmade and not the Greatshells? Not Adonalsium, because they are plural. So what then?

I was under the impression that the Listeners' gods were the Honor, Odium and Cultivation. In the song, a few forms are not referred as being of gods, so I'm assuming they bond with spren from before shards came to Roshar, giving forms such as workform, mateform and dullform. The god forms, the first god forms, were of Honor and Cultivation, who created spren which they could bond to, giving new forms such as warform and nimbleform. Finally, there are the other god forms, the forms of power such nightform, decayform, smokeform, and stormform, given by their new god, Odium, after they turned to him.

[Yata]

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I was under the impression that the Listeners' gods were the Honor, Odium and Cultivation. In the song, a few forms are not referred as being of gods, so I'm assuming they bond with spren from before shards came to Roshar, giving forms such as workform, mateform and dullform. The god forms, the first god forms, were of Honor and Cultivation, who created spren which they could bond to, giving new forms such as warform and nimbleform. Finally, there are the other god forms, the forms of power such nightform, decayform, smokeform, and stormform, given by their new god, Odium, after they turned to him.

Well I always thought they were the Unmade...have we some information againist Listener Gods=Unmade ?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

Well I always thought they were the Unmade...have we some information againist Listener Gods=Unmade ?

No, but I just thought that the gods were shards since the songs of the Listeners seemed to imply that the gods gave them the forms, which seems to me to be referring to the creation of form-changing spren by shards. Since not all the forms of gods are forms of power, which I feel like that is what the Unmade gave them, then I feel like it shows how the gods aren't just of Odium, which is why I thought that Honor, at least, was a god as well to give warform.

Honestly though, I never really thought about the Unmade as being the gods referring to in the songs. However, I'm reading carefully over the songs again and paying attention to the references to the gods. I'm noticing now that there are fairly darker connotations in most points. So it does make some sense that the gods are the Unmade. This would mean though then that the Unmade created spren for forms other than the forms of power, which I find interesting.

Also, it was said that Gavilar was trying to bring back the gods of the Listeners? If that's the case then I agree that it is pretty probable that the Unmade are the gods.

[Yata]

In my own opinion Listeners changed form before H&C arrived on Roshar...Then something change and they have to find a new way to obtain the Forms, at this point the Unmade arrived and offered new Spren for the Listener who they began to workship as gods.

The Spren "betrayal" may be caused from H&C who taint some spren with their Invesiture changing them or something like that.

[marianmi]

I thought Listeners think *spren* betrayed them, not *gods*

 

[1stBondsmith]

I believe they changed forms with the spren from the very beginning, and since they were the only numerous people we know of at the beginning, they were likely the cognitive source for the spren. When Honor and Cultivation show up, they bring man (or man is driven there, either way), and man's emotions and passions are tempting to the spren, but man cannot bond yet. Oduim shows up, the Unmade are either taken over as splinters, or created as splinters (not sure which I believe still), and the Unmade show new forms and new powers to the Listeners (Is this where they become their Gods or was it long before? Depends on when the Unmade were made). Lots of strife...Honor makes the Heralds and gives them the Honor Blades to counter Odium and Odium is somehow bound and Honor killed. Spren see the working of the Honorblades, and want more sentience. They bond to men and thus form the Knights Radiant (this is the treason of the spren to the Listeners). Helralds organize and codify the Knights. Parshendi take on dull form to escape the power forms of their terrible Gods. Power of the Unmade very diminished since there are no Parsh-hosts. With Oduim bound, and Oathpact not in full effect (we don't know why yet), things stay in stasis until the event of the Stormlight Archive. 

So I still need to get a better grip on if the Unmade predate the arrival of Odium (I think this sounds good with the name Unmade), or after when he splintered them. I understand the definitional difference between a sliver and a splinter, which would incline me toward Odium making them, but the story goes much better if they were there first. Also, do we have any firm information that a shard cannot use an being (not human) to make a splinter. The WoB I saw, states that a human could not. Since Humans were supposedly made everywhere but Yolen by the Shards, that makes sense. But what of pre-existing beings? We have seen many powerful splinters that were sentient and not human.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Oduim shows up, the Unmade are either taken over as splinters, or created as splinters (not sure which I believe still), and the Unmade show new forms and new powers to the Listeners (Is this where they become their Gods or was it long before? Depends on when the Unmade were made). Lots of strife...Honor makes the Heralds and gives them the Honor Blades to counter Odium and Odium is somehow bound and Honor killed. Spren see the working of the Honorblades, and want more sentience. They bond to men and thus form the Knights Radiant (this is the treason of the spren to the Listeners). Helralds organize and codify the Knights. Parshendi take on dull form to escape the power forms of their terrible Gods. Power of the Unmade very diminished since there are no Parsh-hosts.

First of all, could you indicate where it has been theorized that the Unmade existed before Odium arrived on Roshar. I still haven't heard anything which supports that, other than your claim of its name, yet at the same time you say it's been well debated so a link would be great/

Secondly, I think your timeline is a bit incorrect, if I'm reading it right. I'm under the impression that the Listeners took on the forms of power from Odium in response to the spren choosing humans and bonding with them. As such, your claim that the Unmade gave them powers before the Heralds gained Honorblades and the creation of the Knight Radiants seems off. Also, your timeline says that Honor is killed before the Knight Radiants form, which while may possible, it seems to be more widely held that Honor didn't die until around the Recreance at least, which is centuries after the Final Desolation. 

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

But what of pre-existing beings? We have seen many powerful splinters that were sentient and not human.

Could you expand on that? Of course we've seen powerful splinters that are sentient on non-human, that is the basic definition of a splinter; splinters are a sentient piece of  Adonalsium's power.

[1stBondsmith]

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First of all, could you indicate where it has been theorized that the Unmade existed before Odium arrived on Roshar. I still haven't heard anything which supports that, other than your claim of its name, yet at the same time you say it's been well debated so a link would be great/

Look to the other Thread called "Unmade" as the most recent. Other threads from WoK time frame also included these.

 

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Secondly, I think your timeline is a bit incorrect, if I'm reading it right. I'm under the impression that the Listeners took on the forms of power from Odium in response to the spren choosing humans and bonding with them. As such, your claim that the Unmade gave them powers before the Heralds gained Honorblades and the creation of the Knight Radiants seems off. Also, your timeline says that Honor is killed before the Knight Radiants form, which while may possible, it seems to be more widely held that Honor didn't die until around the Recreance at least, which is centuries after the Final Desolation.

You would be right if the Unmade appeared after Odium's arrival, which is still a strong possibility and even likelihood. But if the forms of power existed from the Unmade prior to their getting made splinters, then there were no Honorblades yet. And yes, I do believe Honor was killed before the Knight Radiant and the Honor Blades were formed. I BELIEVE (no proof) that was part of the Oathpact. But I may very well be wrong and of there is a WoB about this, I would like to have it, as it would settle many of these questions I have.This leads to the final...

 

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Could you expand on that? Of course we've seen powerful splinters that are sentient on non-human, that is the basic definition of a splinter; splinters are a sentient piece of  Adonalsium's power.

Splinters are also a sentient piece of a Shard's power (from Adonalsium). Shards have taken the bodies of humans as a vessel, as well as Slivers, like the Stormfather for his cognitive shadow. I see no restriction on them taking other existing, strong spren (which is what Brandon called the Unmade in the book- see the "Unmade" thread again) as vessels. We even have precedence on the same planet. So, yes I do think Oduim could use an existing spren (the Umade) for his Splinters. I just don't know if he did, and that would change the timeline.

Edited September 29, 2016 by 1stBondsmith

[cometaryorbit]

There are oddities in the Listener Songs epigraphs in WOR.

As Spoolofwhool points out, warform and nimbleform are 'of the gods' too (" "Warform is worn for battle and reign, / Claimed by the gods, given to kill."; "Nimbleform has a delicate touch. / Gave the gods this form to many") and they clearly don't take over the Listener the way stormform does.

Also there's "Stormform is said to cause / A tempest of winds and showers, / Beware its powers, beware its powers. / Though its coming brings the gods their night, / It obliges a bloodred spren." That seems to suggest that the "bloodred spren" is in opposition to the gods.

Smokeform is "Though crafted of gods, / It was by Unmade hand." and " Crafted of gods, this form we fear. / By Unmade touch its curse to bear" It seems to me that can be read as the gods being the Unmade or the gods making the form first and the Unmade touching/cursing it later.

And one more anomaly: " Our gods were born splinters of a soul, / Of one who seeks to take control, / Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. " On the surface, seems simple enough - they're splinters of Odium. Except ... Odium doesn't really seem to "take control" of anything, and when he visited Sel, he destroyed the Shards but not the land. And since Honor's Splintering was post-Recreance, it doesn't seem to have been associated with any apocalyptic damage on Roshar.

Given how significant the epigraphs were in Mistborn...

[Turbonator]

Hm... maybe Dominion payed a visit to Roshar a long time ago? Seems unlikely to me, due to the "spite" part, but there is definitely something going on here (that goes without saying, I guess). Perhaps the Unmade and Parshendi gods are two different things. But the Unmade are Splinters of Odium, so I think that they are the Parshendi gods.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Turbonator

[marianmi]

On 30/09/2016 at 2:55 AM, 1stBondsmith said:

And yes, I do believe Honor was killed before the Knight Radiant and the Honor Blades were formed. I BELIEVE (no proof) that was part of the Oathpact.

Lol. The Oathpact (per WoB) was between Honor and the Heralds. So then, if Honor was dead, how did he made the Oathpact? If he was dead before the honorblades were made, who made them?  

 

On 30/09/2016 at 2:55 AM, 1stBondsmith said:

Splinters are also a sentient piece of a Shard's power (from Adonalsium). Shards have taken the bodies of humans as a vessel, as well as Slivers, like the Stormfather for his cognitive shadow. I see no restriction on them taking other existing, strong spren (which is what Brandon called the Unmade in the book- see the "Unmade" thread again) as vessels. We even have precedence on the same planet. So, yes I do think Oduim could use an existing spren (the Umade) for his Splinters. I just don't know if he did, and that would change the timeline.

Splinters are not sentient. It looks to me, @1stBondsmith, you lack some info about the Cosmere.

Imagine Odium = a think formation of smoke that is concentrated hate. (Replace Odium/hate with other shards here). It's mindless, more like an animal that has only one instict (hate). Imagine someone that is touched by that smoke will instantly hate his wife and kill her, or something. Now, imagine that think formation of smoke *merging* with a person (Rayse) => an intelligent hateful *being* is created with the power of a god (planetary-scale powers - move planet off orbit, change climate, create life, ...). However, this "bond" can be broken - this being can become mindless (tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose) thick smoke + person (w/o powers) again. The person has no more powers, but it has incredible *knowledge* - it knows about planets, about climate, about how life is created, etc. This is what is called a *sliver*.

Now, the intelligent being can divide its power. Each shard (the mindless power) is a complex thing, that incorporates many aspects that incorporate many aspects that incorporate many aspects. It's like a tree. For example Hate/Odium can be "hate for lifeless things" + "hate for living things". "hate for living things" can be "hate for humans" + "hate for animals" + "hate for fish"  - it would be easier maybe to divide cultivation into "cultivate the fields" and "cultivate knowledge"  but maybe you get the idea. Each if this "aspect" of hate, if it's "broken" from the "main" being, becomes a splinter. The "main" thing has some smoke come out and roam on its own, and it's less thick. That bit that comes off is not "sentient" (where by that i mean intelligent), because the intelligence is the human part of the "main" being, still controlling the big part. A splinter of course can be further split into smaller splinters, as long as those components are defined by the bigger concept. E.g. splintering the "hate for lifeless things" splinter, you can never achieve "hate for rabbits".

Going back to Roshar. I see spren as tiny splinters. There are zillions of spren like windspren, flamespren, whateverspren, that are coming from Adonalsium - the thing that was splintered into the 16 Shards. Some of these spren probably give the basic parshendi forms.

Then, there are the Unmade, which are Odium splinters. Basically Odium sent bits of him to Roshar. Dumb, but powerful bits of him. The bigger the splinter, the more powerful it is, and can affect stuff. Even if there's not intelligence, the drive to follow the concept is there. The spren that gives the Thrill for example, can be the "hate for the enemy in war" concept. It is said in the Diagram that the unmade are pretty dumb, only one of them has *some* intelligence, let's call it the dolphin of the unmade.

This is true for all spren. All spren should be DUMB. Like windspren. Like the Unmade. Because they are smaller or bigger splinters of shards (or Shard Prime Adonalsium).

BUT HOW ARE HONORSPREN, CRYPTICS, STORMFATHER, etc. SMART?

Enter CULTIVATION. The spren that can bond with humans (and that are "smart") were created by Honor and Cultivation together. I believe (I should write this in a new theory actually) that it was Cultivation that gave the ability to learn to the spren. As Pattern(i think?) said, there were not that many spren at the time of the recreance (and then the KR killed like 90% of them). There were probably not that many cities then as they are now. Looks to be spren have been evolving, thanks to the ability to cultivate themselves, given by ... CULTIVATION.

So, if cultivation gave them smarts, what did Honor give them? Well, access to power - the 10 surges, that spren can access, are actually the same as the 10 surges that honorblades have access to, via Honor. So in my opinion, the honorblades are kind of "Spren 0.1 Honor edition", no minds because there was no cultivation in the equation.

 

Why do shards fights in splinters and not directly? Not directly probably because they would destroy the world. In splinters - it's like chess. The objective is to get the other to divide too much and kill the intelligence such that the small bits can't be put together - i assume there need to be a certain amount of "shard" power to bond with a person. But this is besides the point.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by marianmi

[Spoolofwhool]

13 hours ago, marianmi said:

Lol. The Oathpact (per WoB) was between Honor and the Heralds. So then, if Honor was dead, how did he made the Oathpact? If he was dead before the honorblades were made, who made them?  

 

Splinters are not sentient. It looks to me, @1stBondsmith, you lack some info about the Cosmere.

Imagine Odium = a think formation of smoke that is concentrated hate. (Replace Odium/hate with other shards here). It's mindless, more like an animal that has only one instict (hate). Imagine someone that is touched by that smoke will instantly hate his wife and kill her, or something. Now, imagine that think formation of smoke *merging* with a person (Rayse) => an intelligent hateful *being* is created with the power of a god (planetary-scale powers - move planet off orbit, change climate, create life, ...). However, this "bond" can be broken - this being can become mindless (tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose) thick smoke + person (w/o powers) again. The person has no more powers, but it has incredible *knowledge* - it knows about planets, about climate, about how life is created, etc. This is what is called a *sliver*.

Now, the intelligent being can divide its power. Each shard (the mindless power) is a complex thing, that incorporates many aspects that incorporate many aspects that incorporate many aspects. It's like a tree. For example Hate/Odium can be "hate for lifeless things" + "hate for living things". "hate for living things" can be "hate for humans" + "hate for animals" + "hate for fish"  - it would be easier maybe to divide cultivation into "cultivate the fields" and "cultivate knowledge"  but maybe you get the idea. Each if this "aspect" of hate, if it's "broken" from the "main" being, becomes a splinter. The "main" thing has some smoke come out and roam on its own, and it's less thick. That bit that comes off is not "sentient" (where by that i mean intelligent), because the intelligence is the human part of the "main" being, still controlling the big part. A splinter of course can be further split into smaller splinters, as long as those components are defined by the bigger concept. E.g. splintering the "hate for lifeless things" splinter, you can never achieve "hate for rabbits".

Going back to Roshar. I see spren as tiny splinters. There are zillions of spren like windspren, flamespren, whateverspren, that are coming from Adonalsium - the thing that was splintered into the 16 Shards. Some of these spren probably give the basic parshendi forms.

Then, there are the Unmade, which are Odium splinters. Basically Odium sent bits of him to Roshar. Dumb, but powerful bits of him. The bigger the splinter, the more powerful it is, and can affect stuff. Even if there's not intelligence, the drive to follow the concept is there. The spren that gives the Thrill for example, can be the "hate for the enemy in war" concept. It is said in the Diagram that the unmade are pretty dumb, only one of them has *some* intelligence, let's call it the dolphin of the unmade.

This is true for all spren. All spren should be DUMB. Like windspren. Like the Unmade. Because they are smaller or bigger splinters of shards (or Shard Prime Adonalsium).

BUT HOW ARE HONORSPREN, CRYPTICS, STORMFATHER, etc. SMART?

Enter CULTIVATION. The spren that can bond with humans (and that are "smart") were created by Honor and Cultivation together. I believe (I should write this in a new theory actually) that it was Cultivation that gave the ability to learn to the spren. As Pattern(i think?) said, there were not that many spren at the time of the recreance (and then the KR killed like 90% of them). There were probably not that many cities then as they are now. Looks to be spren have been evolving, thanks to the ability to cultivate themselves, given by ... CULTIVATION.

So, if cultivation gave them smarts, what did Honor give them? Well, access to power - the 10 surges, that spren can access, are actually the same as the 10 surges that honorblades have access to, via Honor. So in my opinion, the honorblades are kind of "Spren 0.1 Honor edition", no minds because there was no cultivation in the equation.

 

Why do shards fights in splinters and not directly? Not directly probably because they would destroy the world. In splinters - it's like chess. The objective is to get the other to divide too much and kill the intelligence such that the small bits can't be put together - i assume there need to be a certain amount of "shard" power to bond with a person. But this is besides the point.

This is incorrect. It has been defined for us by Brandon that in-Cosmere, splinters are pieces of Adonalsium's power which have achieved sentience or self-awareness. While it is true that splinters are bound by an intent as well, they do have to have a sentience which is by all accounts, independent of a human cognitive or other shardic influence. 

Relevant WoBs:  [Intent], [Self-Awareness]

Edited October 2, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Jondesu]

12 hours ago, marianmi said:

Splinters are not sentient. It looks to me, @1stBondsmith, you lack some info about the Cosmere.

Oh, the irony.  Please, let's be sure we're being kind in doing this, but as @Spoolofwhool said, @marianmi, "Splinters" are by definition sentient, with the only possible exception being Divine Breaths, where we don't really know what's going on.  Not all spren are Sapient, but they're all Sentient, just like all other Splinters.

jW

Edited October 2, 2016 by Jondesu

[marianmi]

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This is incorrect. It has been defined for us by Brandon that in-Cosmere, splinters are pieces of Adonalsium's power which have achieved sentience or self-awareness. While it is true that splinters are bound by an intent as well, they do have to have a sentience which is by all accounts, independent of a human cognitive or other shardic influence. 

Relevant WoBs:  [Intent], [Self-Awareness]

 

Let's look at these relevant quotes you linked:

Quote

JOSH

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Splinters often have their own intent.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

So, what I see is that basically Splinters are as intelligent as a shard. Call it self-awareness, sentience. Splinters, like shards (w/o the person holding the power) are smart enough to follow their intent. Look at the Unmade vs a windspren. Windspren has 0 smarts, is not "self-aware". BS calls all "intelligent" species "people", but he doesn't call Splinters "people". So I would not say splinters are really "intelligent". They can think on the lines of: "oh, there is war in alethkar, let's move there because there are more people there that i can Thrill". Like I said in my post above: "tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose".

Quote

Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.

Some Unmade "can think". These would be the splinters. But Taravangian does not see their intelligence as something dangerous that he should look out for:

Quote

“The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time.

Rather, he sees them as "forces" that he can make use of:

Quote

There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard.

 

So, in conclusion, I agree that splinters are self-aware, can think to follow their intent. But I would not call them "intelligent", and neither does BS. He calls them "self-aware", and he doesn't call them "people", even though he calls all intelligent species "people".

[marianmi]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Oh, the irony.  Please, let's be sure we're being kind in doing this, but as @Spoolofwhool said, @marianmi, "Splinters" are by definition sentient, with the only possible exception being Divine Breaths, where we don't really know what's going on.  Not all spren are Sapient, but they're all Sentient, just like all other Splinters.

jW

Hey, we can debate the differences between "sentience", "self-awareness" and "intelligence", but <<Odium taking over the Unmade>> is on a different level, no offence to anyone.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, marianmi said:

 

Let's look at these relevant quotes you linked:

So, what I see is that basically Splinters are as intelligent as a shard. Call it self-awareness, sentience. Splinters, like shards (w/o the person holding the power) are smart enough to follow their intent. Look at the Unmade vs a windspren. Windspren has 0 smarts, is not "self-aware". BS calls all "intelligent" species "people", but he doesn't call Splinters "people". So I would not say splinters are really "intelligent". They can think on the lines of: "oh, there is war in alethkar, let's move there because there are more people there that i can Thrill". Like I said in my post above: "tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose".

Some Unmade "can think". These would be the splinters. But Taravangian does not see their intelligence as something dangerous that he should look out for:

Rather, he sees them as "forces" that he can make use of:

 

So, in conclusion, I agree that splinters are self-aware, can think to follow their intent. But I would not call them "intelligent", and neither does BS. He calls them "self-aware", and he doesn't call them "people", even though he calls all intelligent species "people".

Yes, this is somewhat correct. Splinters are sentient, in that they are self-aware, in that they can react to their environment, even if they cannot all create a logical understanding of their surrounding as some, like Syl, can. Form what I understand, your block is the thought that intelligence is required for self-awareness and sentience, which is not the case. Sentience is just the capacity to be aware of your environment, and to react to it, like a cat going inside when it starts raining. Sapience is the state of being intelligence enough to form logical connections and, likely explicit conclusions. Also, I never called them intelligent, so I'm not sure why you're bringing up that point at the end. 

Last thought. Taravangian's opinion does not make for a good argument I think. I doubt his knowledge of realmatics is anywhere near profound, and I don't think he is even aware of the actual existence of shards and splinters. He just thinks the Unmade are more powerful spren than normal, not that they represent an extension of something greater than that. Also, his actual opinion on them is based from guesswork.